Mounted weapons used by Dragonewts

[Diadochoi]

As I put together more models for a Pavis campaign, a question arose. Dragonewts use three types of one-handed sword (Klanth, Korff and Gami),  daggers or various missile weapons, but are other melee weapons used when riding demi-birds? The picture on p109 of the Bestiary suggests a one-handed sword might not be the ideal weapon when mounted on a demi-bird (unless the rider is willing to lean a long way down from the saddle to hit certain enemies) and spear armed figures have been made (e.g. Lance and Lasers Miniatures). Are other melee weapons used when mounted?

[Joerg]

The demibird alone is a melee weapon - it is basically a variation on the Terror Bird, and it might be the rider's job to defend their beaked attack weapon. I guess the Klanth works well as a parrying weapon, taking blows on the hardwood back rather than on the obsidian blades. The mounted scouts prepare the shock of the beak attacks with their slings.

[David Scott]

47 minutes ago, Diadochoi said:

but are other melee weapons used when riding demi-birds?

I've always used the demi-birds as the weapon in mounted melee (per @Joerg) as they are in perpetual mental link with their riders and follow their every order. They are far superior to any dragonewt melee weapon. Their dodge of 50% also makes them dangerous opponents.

[Diadochoi]

In Runequest demi-birds are powerful melee weapons, helped by the mental link with their riders. I assume they are most vulnerable to attacks from their flanks and the role of the riders melee weapon is to protect them from that (directly or indirectly). However, the Bestiary p109 picture suggests that the rider is too high off the ground to use a Klanth to parry most blows aimed at his mount (riders toes must be circa 2m off the ground)

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, Diadochoi said:

(riders toes must be circa 2m off the ground)

If that's the case then it's really only pole-weapons that would be anywhere near viable.

If they're mainly defensive weapons, or at least weapons not designed to impart the momentum of the mount into the blow, then I'd probably avoid a one-handed spear. Too much leverage on a wrist to deflect a blow effectively. I'd probably posit something like a kontos 2-handed lance, or even a pole-axe version of a klanth (big pole with a mini-klanth on the end) if you so desired.

[Diadochoi]

I agree on the poleaxe/Halberd version of the klanth as being ideal, but I can find no mention of their use. I guess YGMV time again

[EricW]

Knights of old used lances and spears, the sword was a spare in case the spear broke. 

But spearing someone while flying would be a very bad idea, unless the spear was thrown. Imagine an airplane trying to spear opponents and you get the idea.

Surely if flying attacks are attempted, some sort of projectile weapon, the lighter the better, would be the realistic first choice. Even a bunch of spikes dropped from a height would be devastating. A melee weapon would only be useful if you ran out of javelins, arrows, stones, or other projectiles, and had to fight your way back to the supply depot. 

[Ynneadwraith]

9 hours ago, EricW said:

Knights of old used lances and spears, the sword was a spare in case the spear broke. 

But spearing someone while flying would be a very bad idea, unless the spear was thrown. Imagine an airplane trying to spear opponents and you get the idea.

Surely if flying attacks are attempted, some sort of projectile weapon, the lighter the better, would be the realistic first choice. Even a bunch of spikes dropped from a height would be devastating. A melee weapon would only be useful if you ran out of javelins, arrows, stones, or other projectiles, and had to fight your way back to the supply depot. 

I might be wrong, but I thought demi-birds were flightless.

Though good points to bear in mind for winged dragonewts and other flying critters.

[AndrewTBP]

7 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I might be wrong, but I thought demi-birds were flightless.

Correct. 

[EricW]

16 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I might be wrong, but I thought demi-birds were flightless.

Though good points to bear in mind for winged dragonewts and other flying critters.

Yikes my bad.

[g33k]

I  believe the "Demi-birds" were based (as many archetypal animals in & around Dragon Pass) on a fossil species.

In this case one of the so-called "Terror Birds," the Phorusrhacidae (if it was any specific species, I don't know of it).
Bigger than an ostrich, and with an absolutely massive head & beak.

See:

Edited January 25 by g33k

[AndrewTBP]

The RQG Bestiary mentions the genus Brontornis

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, AndrewTBP said:

The RQG Bestiary mentions the genus Brontornis

Wikipedia give genus Brontornis to belong either to phorusrhacid (terror bird) or anserimorph.

[Snugz]

Yes, demi-birds are inspired by phorusrhacid-like extinct flightless birds, but seem to have some draconic/dino-ish inspiration added in sometimes in Gloranthan artwork, and the "Brontornis draconis" illustration in the Bestiary looks more like a proper (smaller) phorusrhacid than a chonky Brontornis. So it's a Mélange-ornis.

[Ian Absentia]

Several (now non-canon) Gloranthan sources have confused the matter, depicting or describing demi-birds variously as something like the lizard-ish dinosaur troodon, the distinctly-birdish "terror bird", or something akin to the extinct moa of New Zealand.  This has been confused further by variable descriptions and depictions of the avian steeds ridden by the Rinliddi avilry, which I understand to be different from the demi-bird.

So, what makes a demi-bird "demi-" relative to proper birds?  "Half-" or "lesser-" bird?  So something more lizard-like, akin to the dragonewts themselves?  Or something not-quite-birdlike because it's lost the ability of flight even though it's still quite visibly a bird?  Page 109 of the Gloranthan Bestiary settles matter with a bit of both.

Whatever the case, it certainly makes sense for dragonewts to use spears, lances, or axes when mounted.

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

variously as something like the lizard-ish dinosaur troodon, the distinctly-birdish "terror bird"

The more we learn about what dinosaurs like Troodon were actually like, the more birdlike they appear to be (if anyone is looking for a solid middle-road).

[AndrewTBP]

I always appreciate the pseudo-Latinate names because I can look that up and get a good idea what the creature is in the absence of good artwork. 
Insert rant about a RuneQuest Renaissance adventure that used a “mud shark” with no artwork. Decades later I learned it was a Temnospondyli of some sort. 😉

[Darius West]

Consider the large size of Beaked Dragonewts, and the fact that a klanth is effectively a bastard sword.  This seems like a perfectly adequate combination for mounted combat.  The fact that dragonewts haven't adjusted their warfare to incorporate a lance is typically dragonewt.  Remember these dragonewts are the dumbass failures of the clutch.  Some haven't even figured out eating yet.  All the actually good dragonewts have already become True Dragons.

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Consider the large size of Beaked Dragonewts, and the fact that a klanth is effectively a bastard sword.  This seems like a perfectly adequate combination for mounted combat.  The fact that dragonewts haven't adjusted their warfare to incorporate a lance is typically dragonewt.  Remember these dragonewts are the dumbass failures of the clutch.  Some haven't even figured out eating yet.  All the actually good dragonewts have already become True Dragons.

That's one theory, repeating the assumption that all dragonewt eggs have existed since before the Green Age.

There is a rivalling theory that there might be some form of dragonewt procreation involving individuals from all sexes. If there are newer eggs, then the "useless" argument doesn't bite.

There is an indication that the number of dragnewt survivors in Dragon Pass at the Dawn is lower than the number of dragonewts active on the cusp of the Hero Wars, and that's after losses suffered in the early stages of the Dragonkill War. That might be a "proof" for dragonewt propagation by other means. (Or simply a vastly incomplete census at the Dawn.)

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's one theory, repeating the assumption that all dragonewt eggs have existed since before the Green Age.

I believe it is written that the Inhuman King (lol) lays dragonewt eggs pretty much continuously after breeding with a dragon, not lesser dragonewts as they are expressedly asexual.

I also recall reading the city of Dragons Eye incorporates the eggshells into the buildings, which is part of why the city has a dreamlike extradimensionality to it.

IMO Dragon eggs tap into a dragonewt specific dimension that other creatures can't interact with as they are not on the dragon path.  It is in this strange (likely dreaming) space that dragonewts develop their bodies-to-be.  It is for this reason that dragonewts don't like using dragon magic, as they have to draw their body parts from this realm, ultimately meaning they now have to regrow them, potentially over lifetimes.  This is reflected in the dragonewt rune which represents something akin to Jung's description of the relationship of consciousness and the unconscious to an iceberg, with the smaller consciouness sitting above the huge unconscious, which again serves as an analogy for Dragonewts and their relationship to dreams, consciousness, the unconscious, and their mysticism, which permeates all other mystical traditions.

It's just my opinion, but this explanation seems to best account for and draw together the various different threads discussed about dragonewts in multiple official publications.

[davecake]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:01 PM, AndrewTBP said:

I always appreciate the pseudo-Latinate names because I can look that up and get a good idea what the creature is in the absence of good artwork. 

Yes. Sandy and Greg both seem to like prehistoric creatures, and it an help a lot knowing what animals look like.