Great Sister

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

As luck would have it my recent revelations about The Lady Of Graclodont fit nicely here. A symbolic army for symbolic warfare.




 

It takes a General Jinjur to, ah, put some ginger into those sparklingly pretty and perfectly choreographed Berkeleyan types.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I have plenty of material on Great Sister. But she does not have a cult that provides magic or powers to player characters. 

Oh, I do really get the principle that while someone is in the world, they may be worshipped but do not give Rune spells because they are still using their magic themselves.  And apotheosis removes them as active NPCs / political players / questgivers.  

[scott-martin]

18 minutes ago, Eff said:

It takes a General Jinjur to, ah, put some ginger into those sparklingly pretty and perfectly choreographed Berkeleyan types.

Sharpen those needles ladies, there's a scarecrow that needs letting out. "This too is Great Sister."


 

[Eff]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Sharpen those needles ladies, there's a scarecrow that needs letting out. "This too is Great Sister."


 

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

I often pass Marc Bolan's shrine and have never received glam platform shoes.

Now, David Scott in glam platform shoes is something I'd pay to see. I wouldn't pay a lot, though, maybe a pound.

[Nick Brooke]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Typical insula shrine .... so in Nick's Glorantha she IS worshipped!

Lots of room for development here.

Have I ever suggested that my Glorantha doesn’t vary? That would be ridiculous!

(Also, the book is by my friend Chris. I think it’s one of the best-written supplements RuneQuest has ever had, but, you know, that’s just, like, my opinion, man. Link.)

[Nick Brooke]

6 hours ago, Eff said:

I am starting to convert notes and memories and cogitation into something that might be useful for other people to pick up for play…

Consider me suitably aroused.

[Nick Brooke]

While we’re talking about female armies armed with hat pins…

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/hatpin-peril-terrorized-men-who-couldnt-handle-20th-century-woman-180951219/

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Have I ever suggested that my Glorantha doesn’t vary? That would be ridiculous!

(Also, the book is by my friend Chris. I think it’s one of the best-written supplements RuneQuest has ever had, but, you know, that’s just, like, my opinion, man. Link.)

I think it's pretty good too. 

There is still a lot of room to detail the Lunar Heartland.  So many cities, so many Lunar connected families, and almost nothing yet published to describe a walk through the  countryside, the Lodril worshippers.

[Squaredeal Sten]

I wish I knew something about choreography.  How does one train and maneuver an "army" of 500 ceremonial dancers?  Presumably they are accomplished in magic, and the ceremonies are merely a very visible application of that.  

I have an urge to write a scene with dialogue, words of command, a chorus, and catastrophic magical effects several kilometers away.  Would that be how Great Sister protects against the Pentan nomads during  the interregnum?

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Have I ever suggested that my Glorantha doesn’t vary? That would be ridiculous!

(Also, the book is by my friend Chris. I think it’s one of the best-written supplements RuneQuest has ever had, but, you know, that’s just, like, my opinion, man. Link.)

Citizens of the Imperium is an incredible book if you can get your PCs to actually stay still in one place.

It's a great source for understanding how Imperial cities function, too.  It is set in Glamour, but almost all the social/economic stuff applies to any city.

 

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

While we’re talking about female armies armed with hat pins…

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/hatpin-peril-terrorized-men-who-couldnt-handle-20th-century-woman-180951219/

General Jinjur was created during the period in the article, in fact.

This is also the era when suffragettes beat up Winston Churchill.

 

24 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I wish I knew something about choreography.  How does one train and maneuver an "army" of 500 ceremonial dancers?  Presumably they are accomplished in magic, and the ceremonies are merely a very visible application of that.  

I have an urge to write a scene with dialogue, words of command, a chorus, and catastrophic magical effects several kilometers away.  Would that be how Great Sister protects against the Pentan nomads during  the interregnum?

Hollywood in the golden age of musicals pulled this off all the time, minus the magic.

You establish a school and a system of magical dance.  Then you train all the students how to dance in unison and to do the specific dances.  Different moves form a magical vocabulary.  Put the 'vocabulary' together to create magical commands. 

Ahiru has a partner named Fakir.  When he does a lift on her, they're beginning air magic.  He spins on one foot to evoke a whirlwind; she does a kick in the air which aims it, then they both shout "Blarnigan", the release trigger and a tornado heads off.

Now imagine 250 such pairs and how big a whirlwind they can make.

(Watch a ballet, imagine if it triggered periodic magics.)

Watching Russian sword dancing is another good thing here.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I have an urge to write a scene with dialogue, words of command, a chorus, and catastrophic magical effects several kilometers away.  Would that be how Great Sister protects against the Pentan nomads during  the interregnum?

Not only is this a very fruitful line of thought to go down, I must point you towards one of the greatest “dancelike ceremonies” in all of the records we have: Tatius the Bright’s Great Lunar Transformation. (Page 40 of the Sourcebook or 126 of KoS.)

”Everyone had spent months in preparation and each celebrant had invoked one of the celestial powers with such success that anyone watching would easily have recognized any participant to be the proper star, planet, or other selected celestial body.”

I’d also recommend listening to the Overture from Stravinsky’s Argrath Rex (1912) for inspiration.

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I wish I knew something about choreography.  How does one train and maneuver an "army" of 500 ceremonial dancers?  Presumably they are accomplished in magic, and the ceremonies are merely a very visible application of that.  

Watch Bollywood Movies!

 

[Nick Brooke]

10 hours ago, John Biles said:

Citizens of the Lunar Empire [title corrected] is an incredible book if you can get your PCs to actually stay still in one place.

It's a great source for understanding how Imperial cities function, too.  It is set in Glamour, but almost all the social/economic stuff applies to any city.

We specifically called this out in a one-page advertorial in Furthest: Crown Jewel of Lunar Tarsh, and it's mentioned in the introduction to Citizens as well. The Insula (the setting for Citizens) was designed to be the "home base" for a party of adventurers who need a place to live in any Lunar city. It works like any clan village, presenting a microcosm of the larger society through named, characterful NPCs, and showing how everything works: education, clothing and supplies, food and drink, entertainment, retirement, religion: it's all covered in Citizens.

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I wish I knew something about choreography.  How does one train and maneuver an "army" of 500 ceremonial dancers?  Presumably they are accomplished in magic, and the ceremonies are merely a very visible application of that. 

Sounds like the minimum requirement for just about any Bollywood movie.

[Eff]

On 4/29/2024 at 10:38 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

I wish I knew something about choreography.  How does one train and maneuver an "army" of 500 ceremonial dancers?  Presumably they are accomplished in magic, and the ceremonies are merely a very visible application of that.  

I have an urge to write a scene with dialogue, words of command, a chorus, and catastrophic magical effects several kilometers away.  Would that be how Great Sister protects against the Pentan nomads during  the interregnum?

I would look at American-style marching bands, which are at about that size for large universities with an emphasis on the program, but which carry out complicated maneuvers on the field and in parade, frequently with colorful, even outlandish uniforms. 

https://youtu.be/6O7916boCa8 

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 4/30/2024 at 10:32 AM, Eff said:

I would look at American-style marching bands, which are at about that size for large universities with an emphasis on the program, but which carry out complicated maneuvers on the field and in parade, frequently with colorful, even outlandish uniforms. 

I have been told by someone who has been in a marching band, that our drill as American Civil War reenactors (Hardee's manual) is actually more complex.  And certainly I am familiar with combining the elements to make bigger maneuvers up through brigade.

But that doesn't actually tell me the specific secrets of choreography or of marching bands.  

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I have been told by someone who has been in a marching band, that our drill as American Civil War reenactors (Hardee's manual) is actually more complex.  And certainly I am familiar with combining the elements to make bigger maneuvers up through brigade.

But that doesn't actually tell me the specific secrets of choreography or of marching bands.  

Well, here's a primer on how the physical notation for mass movements works: https://www.indstate.edu/cas/sycamorebands/ensembles/athletic-bands/marching-sycamores/drill-primer

If you reenact under Hardee's manual, the step, quick, double-quick, and run are all shared, and the evolutions of the line are also relevant for thinking about these kinds of maneuvers. (Along with basics like forming and breaking line, wheeling left and right, etc.)

And then there's Labannotation and Benesh Movement Notation to describe the movements of individual dancers, which is helpful because large-scale choreography is, in the contemporary world, typically reliant on a significant degree of improvisation within boundaries. You can also look at examples designed to teach people how to perform ballroom or folk dances. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 4/30/2024 at 12:54 PM, Eff said:

Well, here's a primer on how the physical notation for mass movements works: https://www.indstate.edu/cas/sycamorebands/ensembles/athletic-bands/marching-sycamores/drill-primer

If you reenact under Hardee's manual, the step, quick, double-quick, and run are all shared, and the evolutions of the line are also relevant for thinking about these kinds of maneuvers. (Along with basics like forming and breaking line, wheeling left and right, etc.)

And then there's Labannotation and Benesh Movement Notation to describe the movements of individual dancers, which is helpful because large-scale choreography is, in the contemporary world, typically reliant on a significant degree of improvisation within boundaries. You can also look at examples designed to teach people how to perform ballroom or folk dances. 

The Indiana State band's coorinate charts assume a controlled and marked environment: A football field. For magical military field use, we can't assume that.  I wonder what other methods are in use.

But I can begin to imagine how to rehearse and direct mass  magical choreography.

And I can make assumptions about the division of the sister's Army into battalions, companies, platoons, files.

For example:  assuming the army of 500 in ranks, four battalions of 125 each with seven companies each of 16 and one officer,  each  containing two platoons of 8...

Army, fall in by battalion!

By battalion form line on the markers!  [These markers would be directing individuals, directed  by the General and her executive officer.  General Jinjur, in this context.. The battalion commanders move their battalions into line. ]

1st company 4th battalion, left wheel, march!  Halt!  [the company is facing south - south - east[

By battallion, change direction on the first company. 4th battalion!  [Battalion commanders command: Change direction By company, left wheel march, , forward, march.... center, dress! ]

By battalion, circle widdershins! [Battalion commanders direct the formation of circles.] ..... Face with the markers, face!

Cast madness, fuglemen post!  On the music - Music, sound off!

Drumroll!  [Generaj Jinjur raises her baton]

Cast!  [A crash of drums and cymbals follows] [General Jinjur points her baton]

[Multicolored but mostly red lights stream southward, and other manifestations of the Madness spell]

[davecake]

On 4/29/2024 at 6:01 PM, David Scott said:

As Nysalor riddles aren't needed for illumination, not all schools would use them

 Nysalor Riddles are one of the most effective methods of teaching Illumination, and the distinctive method of Nysalor - I think the Sisterhood of the New Consciousness is one of the organisations most likely to use Riddles extensively.  

[David Scott]

21 hours ago, davecake said:

 Nysalor Riddles are one of the most effective methods of teaching Illumination, and the distinctive method of Nysalor - I think the Sisterhood of the New Consciousness is one of the organisations most likely to use Riddles extensively.  

I'd say training is more effective - no skill roll needed, the increase in illumination skill being 1D6-1% instead of 1%.  I also wonder how widespread skilled riddlers are due to the POW cost in learning each riddle, and the rarity of those illuminates able to learn them. Those illuminates can train with no POW cost.

[Darius West]

It seems to me as if Great Sister is really a repository of Nysalor Riddles.  This makes sense, as you can't really write down Nysalor Riddles; you can perhaps encode them into architecture or other puzzles, but if you write them, they lose the disengagement of intellect that illumination requires.  Great Sister's role would largely be to receive good lunars for Illumination training.  They come in and she asks them a blistering series of riddles, in the hopes of breaking their brains enough to allow "Nysalor" in.  Of course she also has a militant sisterhood to protect Great Sister and do her will.  Of course taking in such students also means they gain a loyalty passion towards Great Sister, and that is a powerful political tool, going forwards for Great Sister to use.

By the time Great Sister is through with you, peace is war, freedom is slavery, and you love Takanegi, Great Sister, and the Crimson Bat.

I can see shades of Hassan-i Sabbah about Great Sister.

Edited May 4 by Darius West

[davecake]

22 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'd say training is more effective - no skill roll needed, the increase in illumination skill being 1D6-1% instead of 1%.  I also wonder how widespread skilled riddlers are due to the POW cost in learning each riddle, and the rarity of those illuminates able to learn them. Those illuminates can train with no POW cost.

There is no cost to say a Riddle, though, and the time required is nothing.

so, in a season, a student can train once, but be asked riddles multiple times. I’d a school has multiple teachers who know different riddles, that can be quite an efficient method of teaching. And requires minimal time commitment by the student. 

The Sisterhood of New Consciousness is charged with teaching everyone something of Nysaloran thought - I think they rely primarily on Riddles, because that way they can teach everyone who can listen.

The Order of Day is the ‘official’ form of Illumination, as much as anyone they are tasked with providing answers to questions about the unanswrable.as the name suggests, they are about the traditions of Nysalor himself, a god of Light! I think the Order of Day is popular with Yelm worshippers and other light worshippers, who are able to devote time and effort to training. Of course they use riddles too. 

And the Lunar Sevening Rites we know are for Lunar worshippers, and we know are often dangerous and mind blasting, might try to help the process of Illumination along with voluntary submission to a Madness spell or similar. A bit extreme, and not without risks, but you really need a good pipeline of Illuminated Lunar priests to get the enough to keep the Major Classes operational and such. We’ve got an Empire to run!

I think once Illuminated, it is common to seek out further training, to understand Illumination more and gain further abilities, and usually learn Meditation too. 

[Eff]

I suppose the question is whether we want to treat the Sisterhood of New Consciousness primarily as a roughly comprehensible religious apparatus around the experience of Illumination, as an entity that player characters can interact with, as an object that exists to be renderable in some form of the Runequest rules, or whatever Darius is going on about by invoking the Old Man of the Mountain and the explicitly countercultural Nizari Ismailis in this context. It also depends on whether we want to admit we understood the very obvious subtext of The Fortunate Succession on this topic. 

So my thoughts about the Sisterhood of New Consciousness point to the first objective as the primary one for their starting point. Illumination rules are fundamentally procedures to represent something, and not the thing itself. My thinking here is that a school of Illumination forms around a specific context in which someone achieves Illumination, multiple other people then  achieve Illumination through that context, and a set of teachings and techniques develop which are taught to new members, including teachings around the order in which to introduce people. 

The Nysalor cult of Cults of Terror has fragmentary teachings, the Riddles, but no other techniques and few other teachings to put these fragments into a context. (Since it's derived from pop-Zen, this is of course exceptionally appropriate. Regular Zen involves a number of techniques and a prolonged period of studying Buddhist philosophy before a Zen practitioner is believed to be primed and ready for the moments of kenshō and satori that are encoded in koan stories, though koans are introduced as part of studying.) But an actual school would, to my mind, be significantly more than just riddles, even if it's fraudulent or straightforwardly incorrect. 

In this model I'm putting together as I type it, the Sisterhood of New Consciousness is directly tied with the older statements about Great Sister approving schools of Illumination- it's an organization which accepts representatives from any school of Illumination which can win Great Sister's approval, and thus has the authority to teach. I would assume the Sisterhood of New Consciousness also maintains facilities across the Lunar Empire which approved schools can use (and maybe must use, depending- I suspect the Dolathi would be required to teach where Great Sister can have eyes on them!) And similarly, the Sisterhood would also approve Lunar Examiners, and licenses you to perform the Sevening Rites, and whatever other factors of Lunar mystical practice demand some kind of regulation. 

Would Great Sister have some personal school of Illumination? I don't know. I doubt it's one with a large public presence, because that would be contrary to my understanding of the Lunar religion as pluralistic- her personal school would likely be seen as the school of Illumination, and so would weaken any others. And I think unapproved schools certainly exist, some out in the open because they were rejected due to their methods being seen as unreliable or frivolous, and others in various degrees of secrecy because they were seen as a scam, actively dangerous to the practitioner, or incompatible with the Lunar Way. 

I think the Church of Immortality would likely be in that latter category, although they promise profane immortality only in most Gloranthas- I suspect they make use of mystical techniques for their Ponzi schemes, though I haven't had a chance to interrogate any senior members. 

What do I think these schools of Illumination would teach and practice? This thread's about Great Sister, isn't it?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Would Great Sister have some personal school of Illumination? I don't know. I doubt it's one with a large public presence, because that would be contrary to my understanding of the Lunar religion as pluralistic- her personal school would likely be seen as the school of Illumination, and so would weaken any others.

I think this is the right trail, though Fortunate Succession (p.73) certainly notes: "To contain, control, and instruct his essence she empowered her daughter, Deneskerva, to teach everyone something of the truth about Nysalor. She led the Sisterhood of New Consciousness." It seems as if this school remained a phenomenon of the literati, though, through the 2nd Wane.

Post Sheng, we have a shift to the Order of Day which seems to remain the primary school of Illumination: "The Order of Day are the source of the Mystica1 School of thought in the Empire today." But this seems to be the official order sanctioned by the Red Emperor, particularly in his guise as Yelm.

2 hours ago, Eff said:

So my thoughts about the Sisterhood of New Consciousness point to the first objective as the primary one for their starting point. Illumination rules are fundamentally procedures to represent something, and not the thing itself. My thinking here is that a school of Illumination forms around a specific context in which someone achieves Illumination, multiple other people then  achieve Illumination through that context, and a set of teachings and techniques develop which are taught to new members, including teachings around the order in which to introduce people.

That seems correct to me.