Great Sister

[Squaredeal Sten]

Great Sister:

 

I seems strange to me that one outstanding Lunar personage and member of the pantheon who does not have a chapter in The Lunar Way is Great Sister.  Strange because according to the timeline in Well of Daliath, as of 1630 or so she was important enough to have initiated a change of the Red Emperor’s Masks.  It strikes me that as our Gloranthas vary, Great Sister may be a significant off-stage presence in a  campaign, and i have a few thoughts about applying that..

 

But she is in the index:

 

Pages 9, 92, and 126: Great Sister is the demigod daughter of the Red Goddess.  “she is thought to have worn several masks. She was tasked by the Red Goddess to teach everyone something of the truth of Nysalor…”  so she founded one of the most important Nysalor schools in the Lunar Empire, the Sisterhood of New Consciousness.  She is a major player in the Lunar regime.  Is associated with making peace while her brother makes war.   So who is in charge after Emperor Argenteus goes down?  Great Sister should be at least one of the major players in the interregnum.  And will the Adventurers run into a Sister of New Consciousness?   What would that look like, other than Illumination?  Perhaps it's dangerous to talk to one of those sisters: You might hear a Nysalor Riddle. Any such illuminate is, of course, bucking for initiation into the cult of the Red Goddess, or already initiated. 

 

Page 16: The Valar-telsor family (one of the nine great imperial families)  has unspecified family ties to the Great Sister.  Looks like great backgound for a Lunar campaign, or even an adventure into Lunar Tarsh.  Now do we know anything else about the Valar-telsor family?

 

Pages 53-56; The Deezola cult is supported by the Great Sister (But the cult reports to the Red Emperor) and members of the cult will have Devotion to either one of the two..  ? So when Argenteus goes down is the cult split and in its own internal conflict? 

 

Page 104: Great Sister was present for the Battle of Castle Blue.

 

Page 109: Great Sister’s name is Deneskerva.

 

Page 143     Notwithstanding the stuff about making peace above, Great Sister controls “A sixth force called the Sister’s Army”.  

 

Page 151: Around her Lunar magic is magnified.

 This is not all that much content, but at least I collected it in one place, most;y for my own reference.

Edited April 29 by Squaredeal Sten
it helps to spell Lunar right

[scott-martin]

Yeah. The Facebook thread might tickle your brain but her relative absence in The Lunar Way boils down to the fact that she is not conventionally worshipped . . . these books are for entities with active cults. Of course YGWV.

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So who is in charge after Emperor Argenteus goes down?  Great Sister should be at least one of the major players in the interregnum.  And will the Adventurers run into a Sister of New Consciousness?   What would that look like, other than Illumination?  Perhaps it's dangerous to talk to one of those sisters: You might hear a Nysalor Riddle. Any such illuminate is, of course, bucking for initiation into the cult of the Red Goddess, or already initiated. 

In my opinion the Sisterhood is a kind of a has-been, superseded by the Dolathi and their Order of Day.  You may see them in northern Peloria but they are archaic compared to the modern Lunars.

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Page 16: The Valar-telsor family (one of the nine great imperial families)  has unspecified family ties to the Great Sister.  Looks like great backgound for a Lunar campaign, or even an adventure into lLnar Tarsh.  Now do we know anything else about the Valar-telsor family?

Glorantha Sourcebook 2nd ed  p191  

Quote

This clan has ties to both the Red Emperor and Great Sister. They claim the pre-imperial Lunar heroine Valare Addi as an ancestor. They are notorious for their tendency to ally against whoever is the most powerful of the other clans. They are patrons of the Natha temple and of several schools of Illumination.

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Page 143     Notwithstanding the stuff about making peace above, Great Sister controls “A sixth force called the Sister’s Army”.  

Not a contradiction.  Guide p313

Quote

It consists of approximately 500 beautiful young men and women in fantastically glamorous uniforms. When viewed from afar, her “army” is often mistaken for flocks of gigantic birds or moving miniature forests.

In truth, the Sister’s Army is a magical unit, not a military regiment. They do not fight on the battlefield in the mud and the blood, but perform elaborate and elegant ritual dances and choreography with great magical results. It is widely rumored that the dancers are forbidden from spilling blood and their decorated weapons must never strike their foes.

Lastly she was quoted in Under the Red Moon as saying "I do not chase insubstantials" when asked why she never became a Goddess.

 

 

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

Great Sister is interesting in one (of several) sense in that she is yet another subtle, sensible feminine counterbalance to a more prominent masculine personality. Then again, I don't think Ernalda often maneuvers to have Orlanth assassinated for the good of political stability (...at least among the Heortlings, though I hear that sort of thing sometimes happens down south).

A lot of my perspective on Deneskerva comes from her portrayal in Life of Moonson and Crimson King, and if you wanted to get a feel for her, perusing one of those two isn't too bad of an idea. (Though be warned that Crimson King is a doozy of a scenario intended to be run for folks who are clueless of the third act twist.) And I would lay down money on her appearing in Dark Side of the Moon when that finally comes out; she's a fertile character for exploration, particularly in the Origin Story, seeing the woman who would become Great Sister as a counterbalance to Doskalos Sword-in-the-Eye.

I had a third paragraph in mind, then I had to walk away, and now I have lost it. Mm. Hopefully it comes back sooner rather than later.

[John Biles]

My crazy theory - Great Sister was created to be the Emperor's Shadow in an effort to block the formation of something Arkat-like to come after him.  This is why she always changes to balance him.  Unfortunately, it didn't work.

 

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, John Biles said:

My crazy theory - Great Sister was created to be the Emperor's Shadow in an effort to block the formation of something Arkat-like to come after him.  This is why she always changes to balance him.  Unfortunately, it didn't work.

 

I would point out that she changes incarnations on a different rhythm than the Emperor, with one incarnation covering a range of different masks of Takenegi. This doesn't allow a perfect balance, at the very least, but it will cover the male-female dichotomy just fine (most of the time).

I doubt that a replacement strategy was in place when Takenegi and Great Sister emerged from the apotheosis of their mother. It took Sheng Seleris's interference to throw a spanner into the reformation scheme of the original Takenegi. The emergence of masks started only later, and the replacement mask Magnificus was in place for quite some time before masks' terms shortened.

[Nick Brooke]

4 hours ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

A lot of my perspective on Deneskerva comes from her portrayal in Life of Moonson and Crimson King...

I had a third paragraph in mind, then I had to walk away, and now I have lost it. Mm. Hopefully it comes back sooner rather than later.

Jolly good! Her character sheet in Life of Moonson was written by Chris Gidlow, then adapted by me for Crimson King to add blatant BeeGees and foreshadowing.

That lost third paragraph might have mentioned that one of her worshippers (a mashup of Cosette from Les Miserables & Miss Sarah Brown from Guys & Dolls) and a typical insula shrine to Great Sister feature in Citizens of the Lunar Empire by Chris Gidlow.

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Great Sister

Have you cross-read her in the Guide and Sourcebook? The sidebar in GtG 312 is the major reference as it gives her role, and the Sister's Army is covered in the sidebar on 314. Her role in limiting the Emperor is in the box on 318, The Hero Wars Begin, Dara Happa: Dart Wars for the New Moon. In 1628 she sacrifices the Red Emperor, and the glowline fails for a cycle!

If she'd been in LW, she'd have filled about a page (excluding cool picture). But as @scott-martin says, she's not actively worshipped. See Jeff's articles on demigods:

• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/great-sister-a-demigodess/
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/magic-from-demigods/

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So who is in charge after Emperor Argenteus goes down?  Great Sister should be at least one of the major players in the interregnum. 

No one for two years (GtG 318), fanning the civil war.

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

And will the Adventurers run into a Sister of New Consciousness?   What would that look like, other than Illumination?  Perhaps it's dangerous to talk to one of those sisters:

I think the school would look like a vedic meditation school or yoga school combined. Small rooms adjacent to a main temple with a dozen or so students in various yoga poses chanting mantras (training their illumination skills). The sisters would be the trainers. I'd avoid the RW look of monks and nuns, perhaps they wear a distinctive sash (or other piece of clothing) or hairstyle.

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

You might hear a Nysalor Riddle. Any such illuminate is, of course, bucking for initiation into the cult of the Red Goddess, or already initiated. 

As Nysalor riddles aren't needed for illumination, not all schools would use them. Senior sisters might use the mysterious Rays of Piercing Truth upon promising candidates.

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Now do we know anything else about the Valar-telsor family?

There's a bit more in the Sourcebook and https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/?s=Valar-telsor

8 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The Deezola cult is supported by the Great Sister (But the cult reports to the Red Emperor) and members of the cult will have Devotion to either one of the two..  ? So when Argenteus goes down is the cult split and in its own internal conflict? 

It's Loyalty not Devotion. I'd suggest it causes some localised issues or self conflict when the Emperor dies, as Loyalty (temple) is likely to be higher.

 

[Eff]

Given the Great Sister's origins, it's perhaps no surprise she's present in The Lunar Way as a ghostly presence, GS rendered symbolically powerless at last. But you can't keep a good demigoddess down. After all, surely she should be very important to the Lunar religious environment, overseeing approved and disfavored schools of mysticism, let alone the implications she has for Lunar politics. How should she be used? How could she be used? I don't know the first and the second is too big to encompass. 

But after all, she, Sedenya, did say to speak of yourself first, before speaking of her, and the Great Sister is a part of her; so it is most appropriate to talk about the DenEskErVa I encountered and developed through play. This Great Sister I encountered in the one thousand six hundred and twenty-second year of the Sun, when she turned up at Torang for a meeting with the PCs, who had been adopted into the Taran-il noble family by the decree of the family head, Flower Poem, she proved to be quite amoral, concerned first and foremost with the protection and well-being of the Lunar faithful and those under the rule and protection of the Lunars, but not particularly attached to the specific Lunar system. As such, she was willing to hear the proposals of the PCs out, but she took a backseat to Jar-eel as the game continued. 

Nothing about her magic, though the Sister's Army grew archer.

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Page 16: The Valar-telsor family (one of the nine great imperial families)  has unspecified family ties to the Great Sister.  Looks like great backgound for a Lunar campaign, or even an adventure into lLnar Tarsh.  Now do we know anything else about the Valar-telsor family?

Primarily they are the descendants of Valare Addi (who is described in the Entekosiad). They are one of the main/few families to have survived the century of rule by Sheng Seleris and his horde. As noted in the book, they are contrarians and typically oppose whoever is most in power (and yet don't get knocked off in some Dart War by doing so). Right now they are primarily working to counter the influence of the Tharkalists with the Red Emperor. They do not rule any satrapy, but are strongly present in Glamour, likely have estates in Silver Shadow and a presence on the Moon. They are patrons of the Natha temple and of several schools of Illumination.

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Yeah. The Facebook thread might tickle your brain but her relative absence in The Lunar Way boils down to the fact that she is not conventionally worshipped . . . these books are for entities with active cults. Of course YGWV.

Well the same applies to Nysalor, but Nysalor gets a chapter.  Which I and many others appreciate because it is a rather complete exposition on Illumination, so very useful.  

I suspect lack of material accounts for no chapter.  There is enough for a good sidebar.  Of course David Scott provides more above.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Jolly good! Her character sheet in Life of Moonson was written by Chris Gidlow, then adapted by me for Crimson King to add blatant BeeGees and foreshadowing.

That lost third paragraph might have mentioned that one of her worshippers (a mashup of Cosette from Les Miserables & Miss Sarah Brown from Guys & Dolls) and a typical insula shrine to Great Sister feature in Citizens of the Lunar Empire by Chris Gidlow.

Typical insula shrine .... so in Nick's Glorantha she IS worshipped!

Lots of room for development here.

Edited April 29 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Brian Duguid]

A wise sage once said: "In Glorantha, we can say that cult is the source of culture". But the Great Sister-shaped hole in The Lunar Way is an opportunity to say: no, it isn't, or at least not the only source.

Perhaps this is one of those spaces where defining what someone is not is more useful than defining what they are. A sort of blank land within our understanding of a Gloranthan Culture.

The Great Sister is not a significant object of worship, nor is she the head of a cult. She is not the wielder of temporal political authority. She does not continue the line of Dara Happan emperors. She is not a patriarch. She does not control any kind of battlefield army.

We know she is "tasked to teach everyone something of the truth of Nysalor". She establishes the "Sisterhood of New Consciousness". She commands a troupe of fantastically glamorous magical dancers.

Even in the most religiously zealous real-world communities, much of what defines society does not arise from religious beliefs, nor from the top-down directives of the state. Maybe it's better to leave that space open to our imaginations, than to chisel away and over-define.

Edited April 29 by Brian Duguid
typo fixed

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

Given the Great Sister's origins, it's perhaps no surprise she's present in The Lunar Way as a ghostly presence, GS rendered symbolically powerless at last. But you can't keep a good demigoddess down. After all, surely she should be very important to the Lunar religious environment, overseeing approved and disfavored schools of mysticism, let alone the implications she has for Lunar politics. How should she be used? How could she be used? I don't know the first and the second is too big to encompass. 

But after all, she, Sedenya, did say to speak of yourself first, before speaking of her, and the Great Sister is a part of her; so it is most appropriate to talk about the DenEskErVa I encountered and developed through play. This Great Sister I encountered in the one thousand six hundred and twenty-second year of the Sun, when she turned up at Torang for a meeting with the PCs, who had been adopted into the Taran-il noble family by the decree of the family head, Flower Poem, she proved to be quite amoral, concerned first and foremost with the protection and well-being of the Lunar faithful and those under the rule and protection of the Lunars, but not particularly attached to the specific Lunar system. As such, she was willing to hear the proposals of the PCs out, but she took a backseat to Jar-eel as the game continued. 

Nothing about her magic, though the Sister's Army grew archer.

It looks as though you have already used Great Sister in a Lunar campaign.  Fascinating!  Do you feel like publishing it?

[jajagappa]

27 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Well the same applies to Nysalor, but Nysalor gets a chapter.  Which I and many others appreciate because it is a rather complete exposition on Illumination, so very useful.  

If we work with the main idea that Great Sister leads an entire school of Illumination, then her "shrines" are effectively the schools for this branch of Nysalor Illumination. The deity worshipped there is not Great Sister, but Nysalor. But Great Sister would definitely be a known figure and likely regularly visits each of these "shrines" (just not in some divine capacity).

[Eff]

7 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It looks as though you have already used Great Sister in a Lunar campaign.  Fascinating!  Do you feel like publishing it?

Not a Lunar campaign, but rather a campaign with mostly Holy Country PCs, moving to the Lunar Empire in the later stages of the game, following a grand cosmological shift that opened up opportunities for a mythological peace. I am starting to convert notes and memories and cogitation into something that might be useful for other people to pick up for play, but it definitely won't take the form of a "campaign" as that term is used for published role-playing game products.

[Squaredeal Sten]

35 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

............     She is not a patriarch. She does not control any kind of battlefield army.

.......

But Great Sister's Army is listed with battlefield armies on page 143 of The Lunar Way.  So what is it?  It seems to me that this contrast vs. what you just wrote indicates that the Great Sister's Army could stand some more definition. 

The context indicates to me that it is not equivalent to the Salvation Army.  But it appears not to have participated in the Imperial adventure in Sartar either.   So we have some of what it is not but not much of what it is.

[Eff]

3 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But Great Sister's Army is listed with battlefield armies on page 143 of The Lunar Way.  So what is it?  It seems to me that this contrast vs. what you just wrote indicates that the Great Sister's Army could stand some more definition. 

The context indicates to me that it is not equivalent to the Salvation Army.  But it appears not to have participated in the Imperial adventure in Sartar either.   So we have some of what it is not but not much of what it is.

One possibility, which is not what I personally discovered in play, but which is a viable interpretation- as Great Sister is concerned with the common people of the Lunar Empire, she only deploys the Sister's Army when they are directly threatened, and not on external forays and adventures. 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Well the same applies to Nysalor, but Nysalor gets a chapter.  Which I and many others appreciate because it is a rather complete exposition on Illumination, so very useful.  

I suspect lack of material accounts for no chapter.  There is enough for a good sidebar.  Of course David Scott provides more above.

I have plenty of material on Great Sister. But she does not have a cult that provides magic or powers to player characters. 

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Eff said:

One possibility, which is not what I personally discovered in play, but which is a viable interpretation- as Great Sister is concerned with the common people of the Lunar Empire, she only deploys the Sister's Army when they are directly threatened, and not on external forays and adventures. 

Great Sister is a teacher, a guide. Her primary role is to teach a path towards Illumination. Her "small mobile army" is more magically significant than a regular fighting force, and to the best of my recollection has never been used offensively.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Typical insula shrine .... so in Nick's Glorantha she IS worshipped!

Anyone can have a shrine and receive no answers or magic. An active cult however is very different. I often pass Marc Bolan's shrine and have never received glam platform shoes.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

25 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But Great Sister's Army is listed with battlefield armies on page 143 of The Lunar Way.

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Her "small mobile army" is more magically significant than a regular fighting force, and to the best of my recollection has never been used offensively.

One of the great tactical developments of the Lunar Empire has been the discovery that well-trained ritualists, even a small mobile band of them, are a significant force multiplier in Gloranthan conflicts. The adage that wars are won through logistics has an asterisk next to it in Glorantha: “and through ceremonies.”

In that context, it’s quite coherent for the Daughter’s Army to not be a battlefield army and to still be deployed internally for the good of the people in a defensive capacity.

[Ali the Helering]

25 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I often pass Marc Bolan's shrine and have never received glam platform shoes.

Says the man riding a white swan....

[Eff]

Regardless of what we might say about the Great Sister's cult or lack thereof given the Crimson Bat, Red Emperor, and Teelo Norri cults and their presence, as a mystic who hasn't been dismembered and torn apart yet, preaching freedom and liberation, it is unsurprising that she would prove difficult to pin down and confine to one place. I might almost credit her with pluripresence, the scamp!

[scott-martin]

41 minutes ago, David Scott said:

glam platform shoes

25 minutes ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

Daughter’s Army

As luck would have it my recent revelations about The Lady Of Graclodont fit nicely here. A symbolic army for symbolic warfare.