How corrupt does a Lunar Chaotic Have to Be to Draw Attention?

[EricW]

I'm guessing a Lunar sprouting obvious chaos features will be dealt with sternly, but what about secret chaos? How rigorously is membership of cults like Krarsht or Thanatar or non obvious chaos features policed? Would someone have to be an illuminate to get away with membership of an illegal cult? How many Lunars dabble in things they shouldn't, and get away with it? How many Lunars have personal vices and illegal secrets they would prefer others didn't learn, such as occasional contact with the vile underbelly of Lunar society?

Edited May 24 by EricW

[metcalph]

There's no crime about sprouting obvious chaotic features and there's no such thing as an illegal cult.  The criteria for not being persecuted is that they do not disturb the rulers and their subjects too much and if they do disturb the rulers or their subjects, the rulers are fairly compensated.  Normally this means they say secret.  A few headless corpses of down-and-outs is not a problem (unless there were corn rites to be had or the Bat is due to visit).  The headless corpse of a the satrap's relative is a *huge* problem.

[Squaredeal Sten]

28 minutes ago, EricW said:

I'm guessing a Lunar sprouting obvious chaos features will be dealt with sternly, but what about secret chaos? ...... .  How many Lunars have personal vices and illegal secrets they would prefer others didn't learn, such as occasional contact with the vile underbelly of Lunar society?

A lot of them have secret vices and illegal secrets.  And the higher you go in the hierarchy, the more likely you will be involved  in a Dart War, in which case you will need secret assets.

But there is no census of these, so no percentages.  It wouldn't be a secret if you knew and spread it all over the Web.

 

[Mao]

I was wondering what happens if Lunar authorities discover a band of broos in a forest within the bounds of the Empire.
Do they send some Seven Mothers Missionaries to try to get them to join the cult? Or do they specifically get told to join the Danfive Xaron cult or die?
Does some illuminated Lunar officer take them under their wing and keep them as a horrible chaotic warband so they can use them as a beat-stick against foreign barbarians?
Does the Yelmic noble overseer of the local area just start Sunspearing them?

Is there even an agreed upon procedure in the absence of an express order by the Red Emperor? I guess absent of that everything falls under the authority of the Satrap, which would then be farmed out to over-seers on the ground because the Satrap can't be everywhere at once.

[Eff]

21 minutes ago, Mao said:

I was wondering what happens if Lunar authorities discover a band of broos in a forest within the bounds of the Empire.
Do they send some Seven Mothers Missionaries to try to get them to join the cult? Or do they specifically get told to join the Danfive Xaron cult or die?
Does some illuminated Lunar officer take them under their wing and keep them as a horrible chaotic warband so they can use them as a beat-stick against foreign barbarians?
Does the Yelmic noble overseer of the local area just start Sunspearing them?

Is there even an agreed upon procedure in the absence of an express order by the Red Emperor? I guess absent of that everything falls under the authority of the Satrap, which would then be farmed out to over-seers on the ground because the Satrap can't be everywhere at once.

I'm not sure why any of the options you've presented would be pursued.

[Mao]

21 minutes ago, Eff said:

I'm not sure why any of the options you've presented would be pursued.

Because Broos running around your Satrapy is a bad thing. The Lunar Empire might be cool with Chaos but only when it's controlled and not a threat to it's own people.

Quote

By its faith, the Lunar Empire must accept Chaos and
make use of it as necessary. The Crimson Bat is an example of
how this can be done, as may be the vampire regiment rumored
to be training in the mountains of Peloria. Yet many Lunar
heroes gained fame by killing Vivamort cultists or smashing
the slave heads of Thanatar. The awareness of the educated
or sensitive concerning the proximity of Chaos makes them
acutely aware of their dire responsibilities. The teachings of the
Red Goddess, though passionate and fierce, strongly admonish
against certain temptations.

p. 132 of Cults of Runequest: The Lunar Way

My thinking is any Chaotic inside the Empire that doesn't quickly find a way to be of use to the Red Emperor and the Goddess will be dealt with harshly. Options 1, 1.5 and 2 deal with taking the Chaos under the auspice of the Empire in varying degrees of control. Option 3 is for when the other options don't work and is in line with 'Lunar heroes gaining fame by killing Vivamort cultists and smashing slave heads of Thanatar' from the Lunar Way book.

I don't see why I suggested is strange, I'm just wondering how the decision about what to be done is come to.
If the answer is 'depends entirely on how the Red Emperor is feeling that day/what the Satrap wants/what the local official thinks they can get away with' then that's fine.
Of course maybe the Chaotic is illuminated and can prove their openess to the Lunar Way which will alter the range of options. But the reality is most Broos will be horrible suffering abominations wracked by disease who want nothing more than to share their suffering with others.
 

[svensson]

IMG, there's two criteria:

- Obvious Chaos features and/or

- Clearly depraved and illegal behavior [cannibalism, necrophilia or some other forbidden conduct]

In the former case the Chaotic is handed off to an Imperial Lunar organization like the Lunar School of Magic, the Cult of the Red Goddess, etc. If they resist, they're fed to the Bat.

In the latter case, they're magically examined for the Chaos taint. There are many perfectly non-Chaotic people who are simply insane. In the case of Chaotics, see above. In the case of the non-Chaotic lunatic, they're clearly a danger to society and therefore are given into the care of an prison asylum.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

I'm guessing a Lunar sprouting obvious chaos features will be dealt with sternly,

Given the average lunar citizen isn't an illuminate, and that the Lunar cults tolerate chaos, any response by the authorities is likely to be on a case by case basis: 

Quote

The Lunar Way in no way condones the worship of Chaos entities that follow the ways of Gbaji and fall into moral depravity. The religion and state do not forbid it, however, as required by their philosophy. The rulers are adroit at manipulating the results if people do fall into the way of the Chaos gods. Lunar history contains lessons of generals and priests gone bad and point them out as examples who fell prey to the taint of Chaos.

Lunar Way 132, Lunar Chaos

So if your local Seven Mothers priestess (who already has a secret chaos feature), joins the Red Goddess, accepts her free Chaos feature and succeeds in the 30% chance to turn into a broo. When she returns - it's clearly a joyous transformation - the goddess has smiled on her and your priestess has embraced that wonder. You're probably a bit nervous that she's now a broo - but she's Lunar Chaos and that means she's your broo priestess. You need to up your Loyalty passion!

1 hour ago, EricW said:

but what about secret chaos? How rigorously is membership of cults like Krarsht or Thanatar or non obvious chaos features policed?

Given the above, and the defining Chaos Gods,  they realise that these cause problems - this is Chaos, not Lunar Chaos.

1 hour ago, EricW said:

Would someone have to be an illuminate to get away with membership of an illegal cult?

Until you do or don't get caught doing bad things.

1 hour ago, EricW said:

How many Lunars dabble in things they shouldn't, and get away with it?

Those that don't get caught

1 hour ago, EricW said:

How many Lunars have personal vices and illegal secrets they would prefer others didn't learn, such as occasional contact with the vile underbelly of Lunar society?

Everyone - just like real life.

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, Mao said:

I was wondering what happens if Lunar authorities discover a band of broos in a forest within the bounds of the Empire.

Are the broos harming someone's economic or magical interests? Then this someone may attempt to find a solution by appealing ot the local or provincial authority.

If the broos pay their taxes (directly or in the employ of a local magnate) and keep their activites focussed on targets the local magnate approves, they would be allowed to go on with their lives.

If they harrass tax-paying subjects and reduce tax income, the local powers who collect that tax will intervene. Possibly hunt them down, possibly employ them.

[radmonger]

I'd imagine Ralzakark to be the only broo who has successfully completed the process of filling in an Imperial tax form.

[Techpriest]

I don’t know why but the concept of a broo tax collector is rather funny. He’s wearing his nicest toga and lunar medallion and fiddling with an abacus using a second pair of arms as he calmly informs you what you owe. Surreal, but I can see an illuminated broo taking to this job rather well.

[EricW]

11 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

I don’t know why but the concept of a broo tax collector is rather funny. He’s wearing his nicest toga and lunar medallion and fiddling with an abacus using a second pair of arms as he calmly informs you what you owe. Surreal, but I can see an illuminated broo taking to this job rather well.

I love it - definitely a worthy NPC with which to taunt PCs, even funnier if he is really nice.

And if the PCs attack, the attack bounces off the Broo's chaotic 12pt armour, and the tax collector calmly explains that attacking a tax collector is a serious crime, but that by the grace of the Goddess he will overlook their offence if they take this as an opportunity to become better people by disavowing their barbaric prejudices. 

Edited May 24 by EricW

[Mao]

5 minutes ago, EricW said:

I love it - definitely a worthy NPC with which to taunt PCs, even funnier if he is really nice.

And if the PCs attack, the attack bounces off the Broo's chaotic 12pt armour, and the tax collector calmly explains that attacking a tax collector is a serious crime, but that by the grace of the Goddess he will overlook their offence if they take this as an opportunity to become better people by disavowing their barbaric prejudices. 

I can already imagine him launching into a speech about all the nice things the Lunar taxes pay for, admitting some degree of waste in the system by the occasional greedy Satrap, but still holding up the Teelo Norri Poor Fund as a sterling example of the Lunar's civilizing ways.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Mao said:

I was wondering what happens if Lunar authorities discover a band of broos in a forest within the bounds of the Empire.

Are they Lunar broos or Chaos worshipping broos?

1 hour ago, Mao said:

Do they send some Seven Mothers Missionaries to try to get them to join the cult?

Are they up to no good (murder pillage, disease spreading) or are they on their way somewhere, maybe to pay a visit to the local Seven Mothers temple?

1 hour ago, Mao said:

Or do they specifically get told to join the Danfive Xaron cult or die?

They may already be members

1 hour ago, Mao said:

Does some illuminated Lunar officer take them under their wing and keep them as a horrible chaotic warband so they can use them as a beat-stick against foreign barbarians?

If he's the right kind of officer, no. If the wrong kind, yes.

1 hour ago, Mao said:

Does the Yelmic noble overseer of the local area just start Sunspearing them?

He doesn't care. If he finds out that means someone isn't doing their job.

1 hour ago, Mao said:

Is there even an agreed upon procedure in the absence of an express order by the Red Emperor? I guess absent of that everything falls under the authority of the Satrap, which would then be farmed out to over-seers on the ground because the Satrap can't be everywhere at once.

If they are doing bad things, normal procedure would be followed (as bandits etc)

[theconfusingeel]

It seems to me that the lunar possition is that chaos as a force can be controlled, but that chaoticthings tend to be bad(broo, chaos gods and so on). I imagine lunars still kill broos and chaos cultists and only really accept them if they are illuminated or at least there's an illuminate that controls them in some way.

[David Scott]

This back of a beer mat exercise tells me that Yanafal Tarnils Broos amongst Red Goddess initiates are not uncommon:

Note that slightly under 20% Yanafal Tarnils Swords have a permanent Chaos Gift, of those that join the Red Goddess, over 30% will have turned into broos.

• 1 in 10 initiates have a permanent Chaos Gift if they choose to take a gift = Chaos Rune 20%
• 1 in 10 Scimitars have a permanent Chaos Gift if they choose to take a gift (not including those who have one from being an initiate) Chaos Rune 30% (roll to turn into a broo)
• Initiates of the red goddess get a Chaos Rune boost of +20% Chaos Rune 50% (roll to turn into a broo).

Edited May 25 by David Scott
moved last sentence to top

[Mao]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are the broos harming someone's economic or magical interests? Then this someone may attempt to find a solution by appealing ot the local or provincial authority.

If the broos pay their taxes (directly or in the employ of a local magnate) and keep their activites focussed on targets the local magnate approves, they would be allowed to go on with their lives.

If they harrass tax-paying subjects and reduce tax income, the local powers who collect that tax will intervene. Possibly hunt them down, possibly employ them.

 

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Are they Lunar broos or Chaos worshipping broos?

Are they up to no good (murder pillage, disease spreading) or are they on their way somewhere, maybe to pay a visit to the local Seven Mothers temple?

They may already be members

If he's the right kind of officer, no. If the wrong kind, yes.

He doesn't care. If he finds out that means someone isn't doing their job.

If they are doing bad things, normal procedure would be followed (as bandits etc)

Thanks all, this is what I was wondering about. And yes the assumption was they were bad broo that were harming standard operation of the region (to put it mildly). Because kind of like OP I was wondering at what point does Lunar 'toleration' of Chaos cease and the Law start having to be enforced. Because I was wondering if the apparatus that keeps things running in the Empire is the bureacracy, and a lot of that bureacracy are made up of Yelmic nobles towards the top, but a lot of those are illuminated and more focused on dart-wars and power struggles... how do the Yelmics actually contribute to the running of the Empire? I mean I want to see it because I kind of like Yelm, hence I imagined Yelmics throwing Sunspears at problems to the citizens of the Empire. But maybe that's not how it actually works in practice, or if things have come to that point something has gone REALLY WRONG.
Really curious about what non-combat magic Yelm Imperator Initiates/Priests/Rune Lords get that functionally and actually contributes to the Empire. Can they command other Solar Cults to do what they want? Is it sheer charisma, glowing radiant warmth and the light of justice emanating from them? Is it the threat of a Sunspear falling on your head? All of the above plus training in skills that make you really good at being an overseer?
I get in practice most of the nuts and bolts running of the empire probably falls on the shoulders of overworked Irripi Ontor scribes writing missives to each other and filing tax reports, and when someone fails to pay taxes a talk is had about if they should dispatch a Army squad or a Tax Demon depending on the severity of taxes owed and who owes them.

[Ynneadwraith]

3 minutes ago, Mao said:

Really curious about what...Yelm Imperator Initiates/Priests/Rune Lords...actually contributes to the Empire.

While this isn't quite the question you asked, in a realpolitik sense the thing they offer is legitimacy. The person who the vast majority of people think should be in charge...is in charge. That way everyone can go on about their day-to-day jobs without having to worry about all of that stuff above them. What happens when that isn't in place is that lots and lots of people start murdering each other until one of them comes out on top again. Broadly, people agree that's a bad idea! Generally, you can actually be quite bad at being an overseer/bureaucrat/warrior and still fulfil this function (within the limits of people's tolerance).

That's what they contribute to the Empire. Leadership. Their magic is helpful in war (the aristocracy are generally expected to be military leaders in most cultures that have an aristocracy), but doesn't need to be useful in a day to day sense (other than leading collective rites as the embodiment of Yelm).

However, I do rather like the idea of Yelmic nobles cavorting through the countryside Sunspearing things. I'd see it a bit like the royal hunts in Sumer and Assyria. More for entertainment than a public service (possibly with some mythic function too, because why not).

[Joerg]

45 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Note that slightly under 20% Yanafal Tarnils Swords have a permanent Chaos Gift, of those that join the Red Goddess, over 30% will have turned into broos.

• 1 in 10 initiates have a permanent Chaos Gift if they choose to take a gift = Chaos Rune 20%
• 1 in 10 Scimitars have a permanent Chaos Gift if they choose to take a gift (not including those who have one from being an initiate) Chaos Rune 30% (roll to turn into a broo)
• Initiates of the red goddess get a Chaos Rune boost of +20% Chaos Rune 50% (roll to turn into a broo).

This back of a beer mat exercise tells me that Yanafal Tarnils Broos amongst Red Goddess initiates are not uncommon.

Makes me wonder how many of them are secretly broos while maintaining an almost human outerior. Add a silver facemask to the helmet and even significant changes to facial expression may remain unseen. "Ram and Warrior" means that slight cosmetic alterations of the horns might hide that acquisition.

Did Yanafal himself apotheosize in man shape?

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

That's what they contribute to the Empire. Leadership. Their magic is helpful in war (the aristocracy are generally expected to be military leaders in most cultures that have an aristocracy), but doesn't need to be useful in a day to day sense (other than leading collective rites as the embodiment of Yelm).

Sounds dangerously like the Eton fallacy that a good leader needs nothing but self-assurance - selection for the biggest Dunning-Kruger factor. Way too many Flashmans in politics and the military...

[Mao]

21 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

snip

*really cool assyrian lion hunting frieze*

Oh yeah those wall friezes are crazy, I've gotten to see them at the British Museum a few times. Insane levels of hunting and desire to demonstrate strength through gratuitous lion murder.
Yeah! I really like the idea of a bored Yelm noble wanting to enact parts of the young Yelm myth. He wants his own Burburstus to crush but alas his estates are just too damn peaceful! The Lunars are doing too good a job of surpressing any problems. Hunting the local wildlife just isn't cutting it for him anymore.
You could go a number of directions with this, does his overworked advisor contact the PCs to smuggle some interesting monster onto the estate that the noble gets to hunt? Does disaster strike the Satrapy and the noble genuinely rises to the occasion and goes out to defeat a monster? Are the PCs dressed up as trolls (or magicked into looking like them...) and used as game?

Though as funny as it is to imagine the ridiculous situation Yelmic nobles find themselves in in the Third Era and the many stressed individuals trying to please them, I do like the idea of a Yelmic trying to genuinely be like Yelm in his good aspects instead of just a figurehead. Like the (spoiler for Pegasus Plateau)

Spoiler

cool runelord in the the pegasus plateau adventure, albeit not a Yelm Imperator runelord I think but still

 

[AndreJarosch]

59 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Note that slightly under 20% Yanafal Tarnils Swords have a permanent Chaos Gift, of those that join the Red Goddess, over 30% will have turned into broos.

What does "have turned into broos." mean in this?

Will their behaviour change to that of broos (smeaing feaces all over themselves, getting more agressive, always horny)?
Will their appearance change (do they grow horns)?
Or will theither of this change, but their can be detected as broos, as seen as broos by others, etc.?

[Ynneadwraith]

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Way too many Flashmans in [historical aristocracy]...

Yep pretty much!

Definitely worth noting that the vast majority of historical polities weren't meritocratic. Or at least weren't meritocratic on the way in. On the way out they could be rather violently meritocratic...

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

What does "have turned into broos." mean in this?

Will their behaviour change to that of broos (smeaing feaces all over themselves, getting more agressive, always horny)?
Will their appearance change (do they grow horns)?
Or will theither of this change, but their can be detected as broos, as seen as broos by others, etc.?

My own interpretation is that they do grow horns and goat feet.  I am not sure about the psychological effects, because they have to pass through Illumination, but  I admit I am thinking about how to GM it.  Another consideration is whether they are disease carriers, but I am thinking that  depends on whether they are Malliants.  I will GM it that they are seen as broos by others, because if they are not then what is the point?.

[theconfusingeel]

I assume turning into a broo means you become a goat broo
otherwise becoming an ogre might make more sense