Doubt about spirit magic

[Jose Luis]

Hello,

Some of my players are asking if they can create new spirit magic spells, as sorcerers can do with their magic.

As spirit spells are actually spirits that carry a spell that you can gather if they are defeated in spiritual combat, they are asking me to approve the spell (so I check if it makes sense in the campaign or it is not overpowered or illogical) and then give a shaman the possibility to find this specific spirit in the astral plane.

Is this reasonable?  My concern if I agree with this, is to open a door for abusing the spells acquisition as the players can design more and more spells and simply try to find the spirit in the astral plane.

What do you advice me to do?

Thanks and regards,

Jose

[Runeblogger]

This is totally reasonable, as long as you deem the spell OK for your campaign. Letting your players create their own spells is great. Even if you think a spell is a bit overpowered or too strange, you can make it less accessible on the spirit plane, f.ex. it can be known only by powerful hostile spirits in the depths of the spirit plane and the teaching spirit requires you to fulfill 4 taboos.

In one scenario in RQ3 there was an NPC with a Bladesharp-10 spell. Where did she get it? Well, probably from an absurdly powerful spirit in some tiny place of the spirit plane. So make your players struggle to get it.

Edited June 5 by Runeblogger

[Joerg]

Spirits need to be found or sent by an appropriate entity. Making up a new spirit cult providing a single spell is certainly a common GMing experience. The spirits knowing this spell would be subservient to the cult entity.

The normal procedure is to have a friendly shaman approach this spirit cult entity and bargain some worship and/or sacrifice and possibly some taboo in order to be taught and be able to teach this spell to worshippers.

The random search for a rare spell spirit is a possibility, too, but findig and approaching the bigger entity is probably a lot less time-craving than sifting through thousands of spirit encounters, especially if that cult entity is associated with some habitat or wider association.

The Lhankor Mhy libraries might have rare tomes which report stories of explorers in contact with natives, or possibly visiting an out of the way oasis in Genert's Wastes, where an encounter with such a spirit has been reported.

 

How much do these shaman services cost the players? If you sell this activity as a pilgrimage or treasure hunt with such a spell a possible reward they might be willing to do such a journey. If the party has a shaman, that shaman might try and build up a spirit society including such spirits. They might still have to form or bribe a community to support their quest and the spirit cult (for a while).

The services of an Etyries merchant who can trade spirit spells could be a way to spread such a spell without everybody joining the spirit cult.

 

The Red Book of Magic gives an array of official spirit spells which you can use to assign costs or limit the effects. There should be more unofficial spirit spells on the Jonstown Compendium.

 

[g33k]

I think it's worth clarifying the ask in the OP:

•   Do you mean the players want to design/create new spells?
•   Or do you mean the players want their characters to design/create new spells?

If the 2nd one, then no:  I wouldn't allow characters to become their own source of Spirit Magic spells.

If the 1st one, then yes:  I absolutely encourage player-created spells... which they then have to figure out how (in Glorantha) their characters will acquire said spell.

Edited June 5 by g33k

[Austin]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I think it's worth clarifying the ask in the OP:

•   Do you mean the players want to design/create new spells?
•   Or do you mean the players want their characters to design/create new spells?

If the 2nd one, then no:  I wouldn't allow characters to become their own source of Spirit Magic spells.

If the 1st one, then yes:  I absolutely encourage player-created spells... which they then have to figure out how (in Glorantha) their characters will acquire said spell.

Ditto. Adding new spirit magic spells looks like "I'm going to go seek out a spirit with stuff I don't know about." 

It's worth noting that creating spirit magic spells is a necessity, per the core rules:

Quote

Rare spirit magic spells allow the shaman to create a gateway between regions of the Spirit World. If successful, the shaman must "step through" to travel from one region outwards to the next (RQG 374).

Considering none of these spells are in the Red Book of Magic, it's a logical necessity that they'd need to be invented by the gamemaster and/or the players.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

I think it's worth clarifying the ask in the OP:

•   Do you mean the players want to design/create new spells?
•   Or do you mean the players want their characters to design/create new spells?

If the 2nd one, then no:  I wouldn't allow characters to become their own source of Spirit Magic spells.

If the 1st one, then yes:  I absolutely encourage player-created spells... which they then have to figure out how (in Glorantha) their characters will acquire said spell.

this point is for me very important.

A shaman may explore the spirit plan to find a "weird" spell created by a player.

A specific deity / spirit may offer their worshippers a spell created by a player.

 

but a character cannot "manipulate" the energy in the same way than sorcery. That's sorcery role.

...Except, once they become hero, create their own (sub) cult, and teach their worshipper a lower version of the power they gained during their heroforming.

[Mugen]

So...

Does that mean any spirit magic players can think about already exists, ready to be discovered by a Shaman ?

And is the desire to find a spirit with that new magic sufficient to actually find it ?

Does that mean the Spirit Plane is influenced by the Shamans' will ?

Otherwise, it seems to me the search for a new spell no-one has ever heard about is going to be a very long, random and tedious task, with no guaranteed success.

On the other hand, finding Spirits with exotic magic that the player didn't think about is possible, even if rare.

[Jason Farrell]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

So...

Does that mean any spirit magic players can think about already exists, ready to be discovered by a Shaman ?

And is the desire to find a spirit with that new magic sufficient to actually find it ?

Does that mean the Spirit Plane is influenced by the Shamans' will ?

Otherwise, it seems to me the search for a new spell no-one has ever heard about is going to be a very long, random and tedious task, with no guaranteed success.

On the other hand, finding Spirits with exotic magic that the player didn't think about is possible, even if rare.

I would refer you back to G33K's reply.  Nobody (I think) is saying that a character should be able to think of a magic effect they would like to be able to perform and then conveniently find a spirit they can get that spell from. 

But a player, in cooperation with you as a GM, coming up with a non-existing spirit magic spell is perfectly okay, and then it's on you to decide how difficult it will be to end up with that spell (again, the character is not going to be consciously seeking that spell, but you and the player have agreed that that spell is going to be found, after whatever trails and tribulations you put in front of them)

[Akhôrahil]

We had this situation in play.

Our Yinkin cultist is running a shrine, and wanted to find some extra magic to teach in it. Have been rained and thundered upon by Vadrus for hours during a previous heroquest check failure, she decided that a spell to Stay Dry would be good (two-point spell, special duration the current situation). She went and managed to learn it from Grandmother Beaver on the Spirit Plane with some additional questing, and now that shrine can teach the spell, along with the geas Do not eat the meat of beavers.

So I think new spirit magic isn't just perfectly fine, but a good way to introduce new stuff into the setting. What I would take a look at is whether this PC-created spell is too good in some way. 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

So...

Does that mean any spirit magic players can think about already exists, ready to be discovered by a Shaman ?

And is the desire to find a spirit with that new magic sufficient to actually find it ?

Does that mean the Spirit Plane is influenced by the Shamans' will ?

I think what you describe is what the God Learners may have done, in Slontos or in Umathela, and possibly in parts of Safelster and Tanisor.

[Scotty]

On 6/5/2024 at 2:37 PM, Jose Luis said:

Some of my players are asking if they can create new spirit magic spells, as sorcerers can do with their magic.

They might find a shaman or meet a spirit that knows a unique spirit magic spell. In the case of a shaman they will charge for teaching it (I suggest using the cost of the more expensive Special Cult Spirit Magic 107 and 109 in RBM as a guideline).

On 6/5/2024 at 2:37 PM, Jose Luis said:

As spirit spells are actually spirits that carry a spell that you can gather if they are defeated in spiritual combat, they are asking me to approve the spell (so I check if it makes sense in the campaign or it is not overpowered or illogical) and then give a shaman the possibility to find this specific spirit in the astral plane.

In the case of a spirit:  Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may learn its magic, forcing it to teach them any spells it knows (per RQG 368). These spirits will be unique or everyone would know the spell. See the Spirit Rarity table (RQG 375), Unique spirits should have a POW of 6D6+, so will not be pushovers for normal adventurers and tough for a shaman. Shaman have an automatic -50% when searching for them using a spirit travel roll.

The easiest way is to find a spirit cult where such a spirit can be worshipped and teach its unique spell, or with a normal cult, have a local hero teach a unique spirit magic. 

On 6/5/2024 at 2:37 PM, Jose Luis said:

Is this reasonable?  My concern if I agree with this, is to open a door for abusing the spells acquisition as the players can design more and more spells and simply try to find the spirit in the astral plane.

Don't let them design spells, unique spirit magic is the realm of story hooks and rewards for adventures. In one of my games, one of the adventurers was taught webfeet ((variable) adds +5% to swimming and that's it) by the Great Newt as a reward for a task. Another was from an Eirthan hero cult, Katran the Herd, Move herd (targets the herd leader and allows a whole herd to follow for 4pts, 6pts charge, 8pts trample, cost 100L per point). The hero's sacred cow prod was found by an Eiritha initiate on an adventure and had her spirit inside.

On 6/5/2024 at 2:37 PM, Jose Luis said:

What do you advice me to do?

Just say no. While your players can make suggestions, as the GM you have the final say in what can or can't happen in the game. I've experienced this in other games and it can lead to plot derailment (in a bad way).

 

Edited June 7 by Scotty
added to Q&A, clarification

[Jason Farrell]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Don't let them design spells, unique spirit magic is the realm of story hooks and rewards for adventures.

 

The two parts of that sentence are not mutually exclusive, in the way that you frame them.

There are a lot of RPGs these days that are more collaborative.  Spire/Heart, Invisible Sun, Wildsea and many more.  They all frequently allow players to provide details about the world themselves as they explore it to deepen their connection to and investment in it.  In 2024, some players (particularly those new to RQ) may have that desire and/or expectation, and it will make the game more personal and interesting for them. 

Allowing a player to suggest a spirit magic spell that they feel feeds into their character's backstory, personality and goals isn't going to break Glorantha into a million pieces.   "Just say no" as a blanket statement doesn't seem to me like the best way to go if you want that MGF. 

Edited June 6 by Jason Farrell

[Akhôrahil]

20 minutes ago, Jason Farrell said:

The two parts of that sentence are not mutually exclusive, in the way that you frame them.

There are a lot of RPGs these days that are more collaborative.  Spire/Heart, Invisible Sun, Wildsea and many more.  They all frequently allow players to provide details about the world themselves as they explore it to deepen their connection to and investment in it.  In 2024, some players (particularly those new to RQ) may have that desire and/or expectation, and it will make the game more personal and interesting for them. 

Allowing a player to suggest a spirit magic spell that they feel feeds into their character's backstory, personality and goals isn't going to break Glorantha into a million pieces.   "Just say no" as a blanket statement doesn't seem to me like the best way to go if you want that MGF. 

Especially if this isn't inventing the spell instantly out of the blue (that's what sorcery is for!) and instead doing the legwork, research, spirit plane investigation, encounter with a spirit to take the spell/get taught by it, and so on.

[Jason Farrell]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Especially if this isn't inventing the spell instantly out of the blue (that's what sorcery is for!) and instead doing the legwork, research, spirit plane investigation, encounter with a spirit to take the spell/get taught by it, and so on.

Exactly.  The former would be altering the rules, the latter is adding content that fits within the rules.  Very different.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Jason Farrell said:

Exactly.  The former would be altering the rules, the latter is adding content that fits within the rules.  Very different.

Also, the more oddball, corner-case, personal and non-combat a new spirit magic spell is, the stronger the reason why it isn't already widespread.

Edited June 6 by Akhôrahil

[Geoff R Evil]

Spirit magic spells that are listed in rulebooks are ones used by adventurers mostly. But there are many many more utility spirit magic spells used in crafting and professions, so if your players seek to round out their character as a character and can make a good case for the utility spell being common, then I would allow it. Sure it may have the odd use in adventuring, but if it’s truly a utility spell knock yourself out and have fun with your players. Spells that strengthen a plow, or help oxen recover from tiredness more quickly etc, all good utility value.

As Scotty says, just say no to PC created spells, but feel free to add something new to your Glorantha as an adventure reward, even if a little more powerful than other battle magic, but keep it rare is my advice, and give it a backstory that links to runes and gods. YGMV

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Spirit magic spells that are listed in rulebooks are ones used by adventurers mostly. But there are many many more utility spirit magic spells used in crafting and professions, so if your players seek to round out their character as a character and can make a good case for the utility spell being common, then I would allow it.

I think it makes sense to widen the utility aspect of the regular spirit magic. Sure, the described function of Bladesharp is a two-minute combat bonus, but I very much think it's also something you use to sharpen your kitchen knives.

[Jason Farrell]

15 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it makes sense to widen the utility aspect of the regular spirit magic. Sure, the described function of Bladesharp is a two-minute combat bonus, but I very much think it's also something you use to sharpen your kitchen knives.

IIRC it's been written somewhere that the spirit magic spells are the game representations of what, in the world, would be a host of similar but slightly different magics as taught by different shamans, spirits, and in different cults and cultures.  It would be overly complicated to list 50 slightly different spells, but very much in the spirit (sorry) of things to imagine there being variations all over the place. 

[Jason Farrell]

Jon Hunter posted this on his blog 6 or so years ago.  A collection of practical spirit magic for the non-adventuring type.

http://www.backtobalazar.com/mundane-background-spirit-magic-runequest/

[andyl]

On 6/6/2024 at 5:49 PM, Jason Farrell said:

Allowing a player to suggest a spirit magic spell that they feel feeds into their character's backstory, personality and goals isn't going to break Glorantha into a million pieces.   "Just say no" as a blanket statement doesn't seem to me like the best way to go if you want that MGF. 

A better reply would be tell me what you are after out of game and if it doesn't break things then I will weave it into the plot for the next lot of adventures so that your character might get access to that spell.  I think instantly wanting access to a brand new spirit magic spell is a no for me as a GM.  It may be fun for that one player, but not so much for the others at the table, or it might result in an arms race of everyone just requesting brand new spirit magic.  At character generation a new spirit magic spell may be possible, but it probably means some kind of strange background to the character to explain it, if it already fits the background then that's great.

[Jason Farrell]

9 hours ago, andyl said:

A better reply would be tell me what you are after out of game and if it doesn't break things then I will weave it into the plot for the next lot of adventures so that your character might get access to that spell.  I think instantly wanting access to a brand new spirit magic spell is a no for me as a GM.  It may be fun for that one player, but not so much for the others at the table, or it might result in an arms race of everyone just requesting brand new spirit magic.  At character generation a new spirit magic spell may be possible, but it probably means some kind of strange background to the character to explain it, if it already fits the background then that's great.

Phil pointed out that I probably misinterpreted your reply as meaning that my response could be improved, rather than the "just say no" reply I was replying to, so I've edited out my original response.

Edited June 8 by Jason Farrell

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Jason Farrell said:

You might want to read the whole thread before you tell me what a better reply would be.

To me it was clear that he meant a better reply than the "just say no" that you referenced as a bad thing, but I can see how the wording could be seen as a little careless. I usually try to look for the best and most charitable interpretation.

[andyl]

On 6/8/2024 at 8:04 PM, PhilHibbs said:

To me it was clear that he meant a better reply than the "just say no" that you referenced as a bad thing, but I can see how the wording could be seen as a little careless. I usually try to look for the best and most charitable interpretation.

Thanks - you are correct. After re-reading I can see where I was less than specific in my wording.  Sorry Jason (and thanks for your edit - although I didn't see the original reply anyway),  I was trying to amplify your reply, and explain how I would handle a request for a brand new spell.

[Shiningbrow]

Firstly, to compliment  Jon Hunter's collection mentioned above, there's this which I strongly recommend - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/343046/book-of-doom

Secondly, answering the OP... I'm a bit of a stick in the mud as a GM, so...

Yes, the players can try to come up with their own spells, however, as @Geoff R Evil mentioned, give it a good backstory that links to gods - or powerful spirits. Without that, IMHO, no new spells can be put into the game.

 

On 6/7/2024 at 12:49 AM, Jason Farrell said:

Allowing a player to suggest a spirit magic spell that they feel feeds into their character's backstory, personality and goals isn't going to break Glorantha into a million pieces.

Contrarily (albeit with a different interpretation), I think it should break Glorantha into a million pieces. A million unique pieces that add variety and difference and uniqueness to the game. A million spirits or minor gods and demi-gods and even godlings and local spirits, and even heroes, each with their unique magics that they can teach minor spells to adventurers - if they can find them, and persuade (probably bribe) them to do so.

Some spells should be so blatantly obvious that they're readily accessible to most people (as per Jon Hunter's and Simon Phipp's collections) - staying dry in wet weather would largely be extremely mundane and available in any place where it rains a lot (so, not in Prax, unless introduced by someone).

But others are so rare you need to find out who might have it - or used to have it - and then you'd need to approach them somehow. There are a lot of dead gods out there who should have had such unique spells, and there might still be spirits somewhere that still have a memory of them.

Mechanically, I'd be requiring some serious rolls (Cult Lore if the deity/spirit/hero would be somehow associated with the effects you're after - if you're wanting to stay dry, then you'd need either a water spirit/god, or a fire spirit/god), maybe offset by 'Local Area' Lore (basic knowledge of the gods/spirits that have been around the local area, and the effects they've manifested). Once they've got a hint of that, then the search begins... and if they do manage to find a spirit that, again, might have such a spell, then obviously, the spirit is going to want something in return. The spirit might only know of some other spirit (or place) where the required spell-holding entity might be ("I've heard a rumour...but, you still have to pay me to tell you that rumour" - quests are obvious here - "Bring me the XYZ that would really annoy you to have to do" - perhaps appropriate, and just as appropriately silly - shrubberies are a good quest item 😛... or the cutting down of a tree in the middle of a forest... with a herring). Once they finally locate and talk to the spirit with the spell, the payment is going to be higher.(if the spell is something that most people wouldn't care about, then the payment doesn't need to be too high. If it's something that a lot of people would want (because it gives a big advantage), then the payment should be significant - and as we're all used to with RQ, that should mean sacrifices (POW, time, MPs, taboos, geasa, etc). It could involve starting up a new temple (at least a shrine) and regular worship and sacrifice. And, yes, that also brings in the question of cult compatibility... Yelmalio would not be happy with your Light Son getting a Rain spell from a cloud spirit. (As @Scotty said, you can just say 'no'... or, "yes, but..."

 

Beware of the MGF maxim... giving the players everything they want is not the definition of MGF (or, at least, shouldn't be). Think of the impact it'll likely have on your game, and then figure out how much effort should be required to acquire it. Minimal impact - minimal effort. Major impact - campaign-level effort.