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David Scott

The Praxian Tradition

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On 08/03/2017 at 9:28 AM, Byll said:

If Vrimak was the part of Yelm that flew upwards at the doom conjunction, could Sun Hawk be the equivalent part of Yamsur?

This invites the question of who was Yamsur. We do know stuff about him, he's not completely gone. An essay in the 1994 Convulsion con book says

Quote

 

The Cold Sun. Reconciling Sun County and King of Sartar

Yamsur has appeared in many past writings, but he does not appear in any of the Dara Happan stories written in the last year. My current belief is that he is the original Praxian sun god, though this is by no means an established fact, just a suspicion which Greg chooses to believe on occasion. Yamsur may be a different deity altogether.

 

@MOB mixed up in many peoples minds, Yamsur the God with Yamsur the Yemalion hero in Sun County by reusing the name. The Crown of Yamsur (Sun County page 109) is a non-magical crown worn by the hero.

The Cult Compendium on page 12 says

Quote

Splendid Yamsur, who was a son of the Sun, 

and later in the Yelorna cult write up (page 121):

Quote

Yelorna’s comrades were her brothers Splendid Yamsur and Yelmalio

Quote

She fought by Yelmalio’s side and witnessed Yamsur’s death.  

There are mentions in Arcane Lore of Yamsur being part of the Yelm pantheon and a place called Yamsur's ruins.

and in the Gods of Glorantha Box:

Quote

Yamsur (YAM-sir)
Yelm pantheon - the unknown god
This god of the heavens was killed and lost during the Gods War. Nothing else of him is known. 

As for Sun Hawk, Nomads Gods:

Quote

Sun Hawk was the servant of the Sun before the Great Night,  

I don't think that Sun Hawk and Yamsur is synonymous with the Yelm and Vrimak myth although there's no reason that it can't be in your Glorantha. Sun Hawk and Vrimak are clearly related, as is Yamsur being a son of Yelm. 

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17 hours ago, David Scott said:

To honest I haven't really looked at the Basmoli in any depth. The reason is that the Basmoli (like all Hsunchen) are pure animists and we haven't really had a chance to look at how the transform magic works with the tradition.

Main references

Pavis GtA page 50 (notes they have the Beast Rune)

The Guide page 18 notes the three Basmoli Populations - Prax, Ralios, and Pamaltela. Page 27 has Praxian details, page 150 notes the Beast & Mastery Runes. There are other snippets spread about.

Borderlands and Beyond has many references, page 9 has Tada and the lion dance and many other snippets.

Earth and Beast is incorrect, it's Beast and Mastery.

Basmol is a spirit, there is one group I think in Ralios that worship him as a god.

Basmol is the Basmoli aspect of Lion Gods. Like Bisos and Storm Bull are aspects of the Bull god.

The only real validation of Basmola is in Greg's unfinished novel - In a myth call how the peace was made "Basmola, who was the Mother of Lions"  

 

So, if i play a durbaddath rune lord in prax, can i claim leadership over a band of basmoli as kin?. thanks.

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1 hour ago, kalidor said:

So, if i play a durbaddath rune lord in prax, can i claim leadership over a band of basmoli as kin?. thanks.

That is a whole adventure in itself! 

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Yamsur also appears twice in the margins of Wyrms Footnotes (and Footprints) series in the article Gods of Light: Yelm - once as the eldest son of Yelm and original ally of Hippogriff, and once about his demise at the hands of the Devil in his role as leader of the forces of Light. The reference that he was General of the Army of Light for Yelm would establish him as active in the Golden Age (of both Prax and Dara Happa), though there were no enemies other than the Storm Tribe or other marginal groups to lead an army against.

That stuff predates the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm with its insertions of Murharzarm, Shargash (instead of Tolat), Buserian and a bunch of other sons, several of whom are identified with the original form of the Red Goddess.

The Jonstown Compendium in RQ2's RuneQuest Companion (basically the catch-up issue of Wyrm's Footnotes before the decades-long hiatus) talks about Yelm among the Kralori emperors, Revealed mythologies mentions this when giving the Kralori name HeenMaroun.

There is another Yelm story about Yelm's three contests, repeated in the Troll Gods write-up of the Black Sun for the first encounter, Basko.

This makes me wonder whether "eldest son of Yelm" necessarily means that Yamsur has ties to the Dara Happan sun god and sons, or whether he is the primary heir of another local version of the Imperial Sun. E.g. on the other side of Genert's Garden, HeenMaroun. Or the Sun Dragon of Pavis.

His being wounded by ZZ indicates a Little Sun deity, visiting a variant of the Hill of Gold. His explicit connection with Hippogriff, later reduced to being Hippoi, the unloved horse (at least by the descendants of Storm Bull), suggests that he was not necessarily worshipped by the Beast Riders in any way. (They had sun daughter instead, which can be read in a number of ways from a female shape of Yelmalio to a connection to the best known daughter of Yelm, Verithurusa.)

Plenty of the inhabitants of Genert's Garden are lost forever. A few left their names behind, some as participants of the Eternal Battle. Yamsur may have been the divine leader of a sun nation inside the Garden, associated with hippogriffs and possibly other such creatures. Possibly associated with Aldryami as well. He and his forces were part of Genert's muster against the approaching Chaos, along with Seolinthur, but neither Storm Bull nor Tada. He is killed by the Devil, and of his Army of Light nothing remains. At least, not unchanged and uncorrupted.

 

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On 1/5/2016 at 9:30 PM, David Scott said:

Chris Klug over on G+ asked for a list of Praxian gods with their runes. This prompted me to update my work-in-progress structure of the Praxian Tradition that I'm using for the Prax book. Some of the societies are mentioned in HeroQuest Glorantha, and this PNG puts them into the structure I'm using.

Praxian Tradition structure v2.png

It seems that Helpwoman is the same deity that  Votankis Hearth-Mother. Am I right? Both found Foundchild and nurtured him, she helped humans in the great darkness.

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32 minutes ago, kalidor said:

It seems that Helpwoman is the same deity that  Votankis Hearth-Mother. Am I right? Both found Foundchild and nurtured him, she helped humans in the great darkness.

Yes. The defining role of nearly all the Praxian spirits is that they helped a group of people survive. Waha honours them with a place in Praxian society - a spirit society. 

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On 10/3/2017 at 10:40 AM, David Scott said:

Yes. The defining role of nearly all the Praxian spirits is that they helped a group of people survive. Waha honours them with a place in Praxian society - a spirit society. 

Hi, Are Ragnaglar, Thed, Eiritha, Tada and Generts Garden linked? I read sometime that Ragnaglar could be the first air god to live in the Garden before The Bull coming.

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On 3/13/2017 at 2:55 PM, kalidor said:

Hi, Are Ragnaglar, Thed, Eiritha, Tada and Generts Garden linked? I read sometime that Ragnaglar could be the first air god to live in the Garden before The Bull coming.

Gloranthan folk have pretty much wiped Ragnaglar, Thed and Mallia from existence, by purging their own myths of references to them as friends.

Chaots might have myths of how Ragnaglar lived in the Garden but was thrown out by Genert/Tada/Storm Bull and how he returned to take his rightful place, but I canot see them being popular among Gloranthans.

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I'm replying to this here as it's about the way Star spirits work within the Praxian tradition.

@kalidor asked

Is mastakos known to the praxians as Emilla? same powers? if so, mastakos is more complex than the orlanthi version of him/her. Did praxians know about him/her from the Loper People?

To answer this fully you need to consider the nature of the Praxian tradition in its shamanic/animistic way. Firstly it's practical - I know a way to find a spirit that can help me with x. I've been told by the shaman about spirit y who can help with x. The nature of Praxian spirits is that they helped survivors in the Great Darkness and so their ability to help is well known. Celestial folk who came down to help are the well known ones, they are well established, other folks aren't so well known and unless you know where to find them it's unlikely they can help. However that's not impossible. The Praxians have a spirit society called the Star Gazers that teach contact with the Sky spirits that came down in the Great Darkness. The most well known spirit is Pole Star, he has holy places in the Middle and Spirit World, what he ca help with is well know. Other stars and planets also came down they are also contacted through the society, its members and shamans. an individual shaman may have special relationships with some and others maybe completely missing, some maybe new as well, take Bronze Treasure. Bronze treasure didn't come to Prax in the Great Darkness, since time a shaman has gone to the sky and learnt how it can help, now many can ask for its charms. The Sky Gazers also watch the sky for portents, etc. So they are familiar with what's up there. Of course they know Mastakos, they were in contact with the Theylans after 35ST, they have Orlanth followers amongst them. But can some get magic from him. The answer is that if a shaman has done so then yes. But it's only local. It's likely they got the stories from the Orlanthi, but other sources may influence individual shaman.

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I think the answer to the Yamsur is Yelm so Sun Bird is Vrimak question, and the Durbaddath mastering Basmol question is roughly the same - if you can prove it through hero quest, it is true (for you at least). Someone else may later disprove it, and that will be bad for you. But both seem good enough to give it a try, and could be the core of a wonderful scenario. 

Though Basmol is a pure animist Hsunchen tradition, not even native to Genertela (and not with a natural mythic connection to a Pelorian god), so it could get weird. There is the Heortling myth of the War of Beasts, in which the gods war with the Serpentbeast brotherhood to despite which beasts are spirits or gods - it might not be canon, and given you'd then be mixing three mythologies you are way off in experimental hero quest territory. I suspect Basmol and Basmola are not really differentiated in the tradition. 

 

 

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And that Crown of Yamsur thing, the fake Yamsur in Sun County also has a fake Crown. It implies nothing about any other Crowns of Yamsur unless you want it to. 

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6 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm replying to this here as it's about the way Star spirits work within the Praxian tradition.

@kalidor asked

To answer this fully you need to consider the nature of the Praxian tradition in its shamanic/animistic way. Firstly it's practical - I know a way to find a spirit that can help me with x. I've been told by the shaman about spirit y who can help with x. The nature of Praxian spirits is that they helped survivors in the Great Darkness and so their ability to help is well known. Celestial folk who came down to help are the well known ones, they are well established, other folks aren't so well known and unless you know where to find them it's unlikely they can help. However that's not impossible. The Praxians have a spirit society called the Star Gazers that teach contact with the Sky spirits that came down in the Great Darkness. The most well known spirit is Pole Star, he has holy places in the Middle and Spirit World, what he ca help with is well know. Other stars and planets also came down they are also contacted through the society, its members and shamans. an individual shaman may have special relationships with some and others maybe completely missing, some maybe new as well, take Bronze Treasure. Bronze treasure didn't come to Prax in the Great Darkness, since time a shaman has gone to the sky and learnt how it can help, now many can ask for its charms. The Sky Gazers also watch the sky for portents, etc. So they are familiar with what's up there. Of course they know Mastakos, they were in contact with the Theylans after 35ST, they have Orlanth followers amongst them. But can some get magic from him. The answer is that if a shaman has done so then yes. But it's only local. It's likely they got the stories from the Orlanthi, but other sources may influence individual shaman.

Polestar Mountain in the Celestial Eagle Hills just north of the snow line is well known. I'd like to think Praxian Stargazers make Expeditions there every few years.

Do Praxian Stargazers have any 'understanding' with ancestor worshippers of the Starlight Ancestors amongst the Pentans?

Most of the well known pole star functions are viewed through Dara Happan or Theyalan lenses (generalship, night-watchman) is there more of a counter-chaos / star captain bent to the 'things he can help with' for praxians?

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1 hour ago, Byll said:

Polestar Mountain in the Celestial Eagle Hills just north of the snow line is well known. I'd like to think Praxian Stargazers make Expeditions there every few years.

They go there all the time, there are nearly 21,000 members of the society (15k of those are Impala tribe), that works out at about 200 shamans and assistant shamans. The Great North Eastern Grazing (good 1 in 2 years) borders directly to the east and just to the south is the Northern Arinstoli Grazing (Good 1 in 3 years). I'm sure there there's an annual ceremony there, if they weren't nomads, they would have a permanent site there. Likewise with Star Crystal Mountain. Monkey Ruins is another place where the star captains touched down, it was already lit up by Oakfed. All of these exist in the Spirit World as well.

2 hours ago, Byll said:

Do Praxian Stargazers have any 'understanding' with ancestor worshippers of the Starlight Ancestors amongst the Pentans?

No, they are enemies. But when they were both part of Sheng's Empire it may have been different. No knowledge from that time has survived (unless a plot hook). Historically with traditional societies on earth - shamans try to kill enemy shaman.

2 hours ago, Byll said:

Most of the well known pole star functions are viewed through Dara Happan or Theyalan lenses (generalship, night-watchman) is there more of a counter-chaos / star captain bent to the 'things he can help with' for praxians?

The original RQ Polestar writeup in Tales 14 had Polestar giving

Quote

Captain Souls
ranged. temporal. stackable, reusable
This spell is cast upon one other person per point. The target must voluntarily accept the spell. The spell then acts like a sort of one-way Mind Link, in that the caster can voluntarily provide magic points and spell knowledge to his targets. Spells that nonnally operate only at Touch range can be cast at range by the participants on each other. Conscious thoughts may be transmitted by any target to the spell's caster, and vice-versa. Unlike Mindlink, INT - or morale - affecting spells cast against one individual have no effect on someone linked by a Captain Souls spell. 

I'm unsure how useful that actually is.

Under HeroQuest Glorantha, Polestar provides charms that relate to military coordination and organization. Sample charms include:

(sky) Hold the line

(sky) Coordinate attack

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Why doesn't Foundchild have a shaman path? There seems like such an obvious range of shamanic magics for hunting and dealing with animals. It seems like it's giving up a lot of gaming fun.

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I suspect Foundchild is like Odayla/Serkos. It's not that there is no shamanic magic associated with, rather that it's practiced by shamans who got their shamanic initiation via another spirit society. Most of the time Foundchild hunters require only their own simple practical magic - when they need something more, they go to a tribal shaman of a different tradition. 

Practically, it's difficult to have both the strong connection to the otherworld required of a shaman and the intimate awareness of this world required of a master hunter. 

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8 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Why doesn't Foundchild have a shaman path? There seems like such an obvious range of shamanic magics for hunting and dealing with animals. It seems like it's giving up a lot of gaming fun.

As @davecake said 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

It's not that there is no shamanic magic associated with, rather that it's practiced by shamans who got their shamanic initiation via another spirit society. Most of the time Foundchild hunters require only their own simple practical magic - when they need something more, they go to a

shaman of another spirit society (see below)

The mythology of Foundchild and Waha are intertwined here, as Foundchild taught Waha to hunt. Praxian hunters aren't just Foundchild:

Quote

Hunter

Patron Deity: Foundchild (death/harmony) (men only in major tribes, or women in Unicorn tribe), Orogeria (crescent come/death, men & women, sables only), Seven Mothers (life/death/moon), Waha (death/mastery, men only).

Basically Waha shaman preside over the society. There are occasional Waha hunter shaman. Also bear in mind that there aren't that many hunters in the Wastelands, only about 3200 with 2800 being foundchild.

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Waha & Basmol
The Basmoli had barely survived the Great Darkness - their battle rage their saviour would also be their end. Waha knew they would always be trouble and allowed himself to be captured to take part in their Battle ritual with others less fortunate. As the Lion God appeared, he saw Tada's spear amongst the dozen presented and slew Basmol as Tada did. As is the Basmoli's custom, he was released and given the title of Tada, Murderer of Children. Any khan who has completed this Task may take the title Tada instead of Khan and many choose to carry a lion baton instead of the more traditional kind (you can read about the ritual in Tales 14 if you are lucky to own a copy).

http://blog.britishmuseum.org/the-lion-man-an-ice-age-masterpiece/

Lion-man-full.jpg

Edited by David Scott
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Over on G+ Andrew Taylor asked about Storm Bull membership by tribe.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AndrewTaylor1/posts/R4WUbsCPX5q

I've put it here to keep all the info in one place, these are the 1621 numbers:

  • For actual numbers of less than 1 and other fractions round as you feel appropriate.
  • These numbers do not take into account PCs - so go ahead and have a female Agimori Storm Bull cultist.
  • Don't like the numbers - then make up your own (YGWV)

Male % / total male population / Female % / total female population

Actual male % / actual male cultists / Actual female % / actual female cultists

Storm Bull Cult

Praxians only

Impala

M %

30000

F %

30000

 

9.6

2880

0.4

120

High Llama

M %

16250

F %

16250

 

9.6

1560

0.4

65

Sable 

M %

18750

F %

18750

 

0.48

90

0.02

3.75

Bison

M %

20000

F %

20000

 

13.44

2688

0.56

112

Morokanth

M %

20000

F %

20000

 

7.68

1536

0.32

64

Agimori

M %

750

F %

750

 

0

0

0

0

Rhino

M %

4500

F %

4500

 

9.6

432

0.4

18

Ostrich

M %

300

F %

300

 

4.8

14.4

0.2

0.6

Unicorn

M %

100

F %

400

 

3.84

3.84

0.16

0.64

Baboon

M %

2500

F %

2500

 

0

0

0

0

Bolo Lizard 

M %

525

F %

525

 

4.8

25.2

0.2

1.05

Zebra

M %

300

F %

300

 

3.84

11.52

0.16

0.48

Pol Joni

M %

2500

F %

2500

 

17.28

432

0.72

18

Basmoli

M %

625

F %

625

 

0

0

0

0

Newtlings

%

3000

 

 

 

0

0

 

 

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Wait...

WAIT !!!

Are you honestly claiming that ...

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

Storm Bull Cult

Praxians only

Bison

M %

20000

F %

20000

 

13.44

2688

0.56

112

Pol Joni

M %

2500

F %

2500

 

17.28

432

0.72

18

 

I higher proportion of Pol Joni are Storm-Bull cultists than are the Bison Riders???

 

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34 minutes ago, g33k said:

Wait...

WAIT !!!

Are you honestly claiming that ...

I higher proportion of Pol Joni are Storm-Bull cultists than are the Bison Riders???

 

Yes. That's always been the case (see Cults of Prax is you doubt). The Pol-Joni also receive Bullmen from other tribes and from Dragon Pass. 

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7 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes. That's always been the case (see Cults of Prax is you doubt)... 

:blink:  <boggle>

 

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

... The Pol-Joni also receive Bullmen from other tribes and from Dragon Pass. 

But... why would someone from another tribe join the hated Pol Joni (or do you mean other Orlanthi tribes)?

 

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29 minutes ago, g33k said:

why would someone from another tribe join the hated Pol Joni (or do you mean other Orlanthi tribes)?

Both. The Pol-Joni will accept others from other tribes that’s always been their way. They aren’t that hated most of that is talk and bravado. Read the last paragraph of the box on page 446 says in the Guide, they are just another bickering Tribe on the plains. They’ve been there 100 years, 4-5 generations, they raid and get raided. The real issue with the PJ is that they occupy the Bison and High Llama ancestral grazings. The Sables got the occupied half back from the PJs only as they are allied with the Lunars.No one else can do anything as the tribes are so disorganised. They are also there with the permission of Eritha, she’s the cow mother. The whole horse thing is pretty much moot, their Waha Khans must ride horses. Horses are what makes them the bastard Tribe, their Founder isn’t part of the Praxian Pantheon. However, the tribes can get together to summon the Pure Horse Founder (tales 15).

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13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Both. The Pol-Joni will accept others from other tribes that’s always been their way. They aren’t that hated most of that is talk and bravado. Read the last paragraph of the box on page 446 says in the Guide, they are just another bickering Tribe on the plains. They’ve been there 100 years, 4-5 generations, they raid and get raided. The real issue with the PJ is that they occupy the Bison and High Llama ancestral grazings. The Sables got the occupied half back from the PJs only as they are allied with the Lunars.No one else can do anything as the tribes are so disorganised. They are also there with the permission of Eritha, she’s the cow mother. The whole horse thing is pretty much moot, their Waha Khans must ride horses. Horses are what makes them the bastard Tribe, their Founder isn’t part of the Praxian Pantheon. However, the tribes can get together to summon the Pure Horse Founder (tales 15).

Did you get in a quarrel with the brother of the Herd Priestess? Is the local Waha Khan making your life unbearable? Does Storm Bull say it is unacceptable that we don't attack the Lunars? You have an option other than kinslaughter- leave your tribe and join the Pol-Joni. With the Pol-Joni life is an adventurer! With the Pol-Joni every man or woman can be whatever they make of themselves. You get the second best grazing land in Prax as well! And cool stuff from Dragon Pass! And real steak instead of beefalo or stringy antelope! Why would you NOT want to join the Pol-Joni?

Geez, it is a wonder they aren't five times as big as they already are!

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4 hours ago, g33k said:

higher proportion of Pol Joni are Storm-Bull cultists than are the Bison Riders

As @Jeff says - yes. Appendix C is one of the greatest resources for looking at the Nomads, but I suspect most people have never really looked at it.

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