Swords of Central Genertela

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Minlister said:

@M Helsdon So well deserved!! I am a tenured professional medievalist with interest in military history and I am truly impressed by the quality of your work; it is not only the sheer amount of data from the RW  you processed but the way you managed to blend it into a Gloranthan-flavored new whole. Your initial M should stand for masterpiece!

Thank you.

1 hour ago, Minlister said:

EDIT : maybe the only thing I am missing is one or two double pages with all the drawings put together: it would be easier to show the right one to the players during play but that is a spoiled brat's wish!!

Mini-posters had been considered, but at present I regret I am not in a position to do anything very creative.

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

And I sure hope in some way that you can feel a little delighted even now!

Afraid I am inhabiting either a grey fog or early morning despair at present. Today I made the funeral arrangements, which is set for the end of the month. A lot more people seem to die at this time of year.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Afraid I am inhabiting either a grey fog or early morning despair at present. Today I made the funeral arrangements, which is set for the end of the month. A lot more people seem to die at this time of year.

This season of joy seems to have more than its fair share of tragedies, wish I had the words... When I feel like that I turn to orchestral music, may I recommend some Beethoven or Bach, either the ninth symphony (especially the Ode to Joy) or the Brandenburg Concertos They seem to help me through dark times. Of course you might have better choices.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Minlister said:

EDIT : maybe the only thing I am missing is one or two double pages with all the drawings put together: it would be easier to show the right one to the players during play but that is a spoiled brat's wish!!

One thing I could do, is add a few pages at the back with slightly smaller non-annotated images (save for unit) but the problem is there are over a hundred sketches, and if they are shown with any definition, it would need probably ten more pages. Am not certain for the implications for POD as the book is already too big) but would prefer to include them instead of as a separate 'poster book'.

With the new sections already added as a bonus to the PDF of details of Lunar recruitment at the back, behind the index, (especially grantland soldier colonies), there is about a page and a half blank...

So the question is: if you want some of the sketches in one place, how big should they be? 

[Minlister]

Thank your for considering it Martin! Yes, pages with rows of small figures would be perfect! Something along the lines of the picture I insert it, from HQG. I don't think the images have to be very big as we can always zoom on the pdf when showing to the players a specific image. Even if the definition is not perfect, that would still a huge visual asset for the games.

I read the book on a screen so I am not sure I realize the exact size of the picture, but half their current size should be good? Or only a selection of the unit more directly involved in Dragon Pass? 

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

Damn, these still look so good.

[M Helsdon]

11 hours ago, Minlister said:

Thank your for considering it Martin! Yes, pages with rows of small figures would be perfect! Something along the lines of the picture I insert it, from HQG. I don't think the images have to be very big as we can always zoom on the pdf when showing to the players a specific image. Even if the definition is not perfect, that would still a huge visual asset for the games.

I read the book on a screen so I am not sure I realize the exact size of the picture, but half their current size should be good? Or only a selection of the unit more directly involved in Dragon Pass? 

 

 

Those are by Jan.

[Minlister]

@M Helsdon yes, of course, sorry of I was not clear, I just used this picture as an example of the kind of lay-out for the picture I envisioned.

Earlier on the  thread, you have shown very nice similar rows of pictures if I remember well.

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 11/9/2019 at 11:46 PM, M Helsdon said:

Hi Neil,

I'm afraid there's a limit on the number of previews I am allowed to sell, and that limit was exceeded yesterday. A couple of copies will be posted (some abroad) and it will be expensive as it is a thick heavy book.

Am asking if the limit can be stretched a little, but there's also a very hard limit of what I can transport to Dragonmeet, as I will be travelling by train/bus/tube.

Have just sent a copy of my files to a printer to do a one copy black & white, soft cover test, which I should get back by the middle of next week. Their document preview showed a couple of issues: middle cut out of a double page spread (I can fix); a few thin black lines around some illustrations (which I can't fathom as they aren't present in the Word or PDF versions).

The preview, with any faults I can't fix, will cost about £60, for a 380 page full color hardback. The print run is small, and vanity publishing is expensive.

It looks as though it would be more feasible for you to wait on the PDF? Am sorry about this. I didn't anticipate there would be so much interest in a preview.

Spine not shown (changes likely):

Getting pics like these in a gallery like those of Jan's above would be top notch (some spears might have to be cut, as it were), if possible. However, given what you're currently going through I want to stress that you are under no obligation, and should not be expected to tinker with your works. 

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Minlister said:

@M Helsdon yes, of course, sorry of I was not clear, I just used this picture as an example of the kind of lay-out for the picture I envisioned.

Earlier on the  thread, you have shown very nice similar rows of pictures if I remember well.

Afraid my comprehension seems to be affected by the shock of events even after more than a week. Have had to wade through the piles of paperwork of someone's life again today trying to find obscure information for probate. I know everyone has to work through the remnants of another's life at some point, and this is my second, and the worst.

46 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Getting pics like these in a gallery like those of Jan's above would be top notch (some spears might have to be cut, as it were), if possible. However, given what you're currently going through I want to stress that you are under no obligation, and should not be expected to tinker with your works. 

Will see what I can do. Tend to run out of motivation at particular times of day, so maybe I will try to create a mini gallery at the back of the book and ask MOB to upload a new version. May take me a week or two. Only a selection of figures will be included.

[Minlister]

Thanks Martin, but yes, no rush at all, obviously! Do it only if you can find solace and/or distraction in work.

 

[M Helsdon]

Here's a preview of the 'gallery page' added to the rear of the document (behind the bonus pages about recruitment of the Lunar Army).

There's only room for twelve figures, and unless people indicate otherwise, I don't believe another ten+ pages of these should be added...

The latest version has been provided, but might take time to upload to DriveThruRPG.

[Minlister]

THANKS Martin! That's a very selection, it will help a lot to convey the bronze age feeling and Gloranthan diversity to the players!

[M Helsdon]

Hopefully the updated PDF will be uploaded in the near future (and have since found and fixed two errors). Sales of Armies & Enemies are pretty much stalled now, but have reached a respectable number.

Am deliberating creating a gallery supplement for Armies & Enemies, but not sure if it would sell/would reduce sales of the main volume. Would probably be about 20 pages.

Edited January 27, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Prinz Slasar]

25 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Sales of Armies & Enemies are pretty much stalled now, but have reached a respectable number.

I've bought everything from the Jonstown Compendium but not Armies & Enemies.
The reason is: I'm waiting for the POD option.

So I guess there is a bunch of people who will buy your book in other format. And most people who bought your PDF will buy the printed version as well.

[Lysus]

20 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Hopefully the updated PDF will be uploaded in the near future (and have since found and fixed two errors). Sales of Armies & Enemies are pretty much stalled now, but have reached a respectable number.

Am deliberating creating a gallery supplement for Armies & Enemies, but not sure if it would sell/would reduce sales of the main volume. Would probably be about 20 pages.

Much like @prinz.slasar, I'm waiting for the PoD version to go live before I purchase. The sad truth is that most of the PDFs I buy go unread because of my preference for dead trees and my sizeable physical library which already contains plenty of material yet to be read. 

[M Helsdon]

23 hours ago, prinz.slasar said:

So I guess there is a bunch of people who will buy your book in other format. And most people who bought your PDF will buy the printed version as well.

Afraid I have no insight into the process - if it reliant upon me creating a black & white document, then it will be some time, as real life has intervened.

[M Helsdon]

I'm not going to chase the poster for copyright infringement, though I do wish they had checked with me first. They also get the details of my bereavement wrong, but then English isn't their first language.

https: website adddress deleted.

Additional: the poster has come forward, and I have given them permission to use the material.

Edited February 3, 2020 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

Although any publication is a long way off (if it happens) I am (slowly) working on the Armies & Enemies sequel which has the tentative title Men of the West. So far I have covered Brithos, and am working through Seshnela, plus a short section on the Western method of manufacturing bronze swords (based on how Chinese bronze swords were made) to a total of about 25 pages.

At present am attempting to capture information, so the actual order of material is likely to alter. Because of circumstances, my free time is severely constrained, so I am only spending an hour or two a day at most.

I know that Jeff is working on the West, especially the religions, so I am very mindful of not attempting to capture too much about the varieties of Malkionism (though inevitably it is a major factor). To make things distinctly un-medieval, I am especially reading books about Sassanid and Ancient Indian warfare (most of the latter sourced from bookshops in Delhi! Abebooks is very useful). This highlights a distinct problem if you are not an academic with access to university libraries - it is quite hard to find books about cultures other than European or Near Eastern.

Some people have suggested an Eastern sequel, but my knowledge of Chinese and South East Asian ancient history is fairly limited - a couple of Ospreys, a similar book by another publisher on the Tang, and two books on Chinese Bronze Age warfare, neither of which are very illuminating, though the construction of chariots in ancient China is distinct, and the battlefield 'tower' chariots giving a general a raised view intriguing.

I could write an article on Teshnan warfare, but it wouldn't be very long.

If anyone knows of a decent (and not outrageously priced) book on ancient Chinese warfare I would be grateful. 

[JanPospisil]

Ooh, which books do you have on Indian warfare? I have "Warfare in Ancient India: Organizational and Operational Dimensions" by Prasad Thlapliyal, which is pretty good.

"Shastra Vidya: The Ancient Indian Martial Art of the Hindu Kshatriyas" and "The Lost Warfare of India: An Illustrated Guide " are still on my Wishlist.

[M Helsdon]

21 hours ago, JanPospisil said:

Ooh, which books do you have on Indian warfare? I have "Warfare in Ancient India: Organizational and Operational Dimensions" by Prasad Thlapliyal, which is pretty good.

"Shastra Vidya: The Ancient Indian Martial Art of the Hindu Kshatriyas" and "The Lost Warfare of India: An Illustrated Guide " are still on my Wishlist.

The books I have (haven’t read all of the last two yet):

Warfare in Ancient India – Organization and Operational Dimensions – Uma Prasad Thapliyal

Ancient Indian Warfare – Sarva Daman Singh

Indian Warfare – S K Bhakari

Military Thinking of Ancient India – Shekhar Adhikari

Most of the material is drawn from the epics, and I am very doubtful of the claims of rules for just or righteous war, given that one of the books gives details of atrocities - which seem to be normal to humans everywhere in the same sort of time frame, and the fact that descriptions are given of unjust warfare.

Edited February 20, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Most of the material is drawn from the epics, and I am very doubtful of the claims of rules for just or righteous war, given that one of the books gives details of atrocities - which seem to be normal to humans everywhere in the same sort of time frame, and the fact that descriptions are given of unjust warfare.

Ah, the old state-sponsored propaganda passed down as fact. You do well to be skeptical, I think.

[M Helsdon]

Am now steadily working on the sequel, though it may take a year to finish, as I'd prefer to have an illustration on every second or third page, and can't think of those at present.

I have now 'finished' the sections on the Brithini, Hsunchen, and Seshnela, and am starting on Fronela (resulting in about thirty pages). The main source is obviously the Guide, and material Jeff has published online, so there's quite a bit of supposition, and I would dearly love access to any unpublished material... However, I have made use of an appendix pulled out of 'Armies & Enemies' which was titled 'Beasts of War' as it included some material about the Hsunchen.

[Finished means there's text in there, but it is draft and will be supplemented as new ideas and information arrive.]

Have heard rumors of a (short) Talor Saga but never had sight of it, though I have seen the incomplete Arkat's Saga, and that means the sections on Arkat present an Arkat who is a bit different to the hero presented in published sources; if this differs from canon it is intentional for reasons explored in the... footnotes.

The general structure is a brief assessment of climate and terrain, then history, and then an overview of (mostly) Third Age forces, so for Seshnela there's over a page on talari knights and about two or three pages on the holari Martial Beasts war societies. I am attempting to avoid any late Iron Age flavor. For the Seshnelans the various Persian/Parthian/Sassanid 'knights' and ancient Indian warfare has been used as models.

Now suspect that one of the reasons Brithos disappeared was game balance, as Brithini horali are very very tough, with centuries of experience and sorcery backing them up, each perhaps the equal of a Hero, and there were hundreds of them.

Edited February 27, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

26 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Am now steadily working on the sequel, though it may take a year to finish, as I'd prefer to have an illustration on every second or third page, and can't think of those at present.

I have now 'finished' the sections on the Brithini, Hsunchen, and Seshnela, and am starting on Fronela (resulting in about thirty pages).

I wonder - do you plan to include a good portion of the one hundred war cults (and hence warbands) of the Kingdom of War? That could easily add at least half again the page count to the Fronela chapter, once you have dealt with the military and at best para-military guardians of Loskalm and their less sophisticated imitations in Junora and possibly the Janubian lands.

There are bound to be exile companies from the Janubian cities that succumbed to the Kingdom of War (thinking of e.g. the Polish companies fighting alongside the English in WW2, including the aerial Battle of Britain, or the Catholic Wild Geese companies of Irishmen fighting for the Habsburg Spaniards in the 80 years wars in the Netherlands).

 

Do you have the Army of Tomorrow in your lists? The Kethaelan company was only one out of ten such companies, if I remember the GTA essay on them correctly, and may not have survived the wars in Esrolia or the Dragonrise.

 

[M Helsdon]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder - do you plan to include a good portion of the one hundred war cults (and hence warbands) of the Kingdom of War? That could easily add at least half again the page count to the Fronela chapter, once you have dealt with the military and at best para-military guardians of Loskalm and their less sophisticated imitations in Junora and possibly the Janubian lands.

There are bound to be exile companies from the Janubian cities that succumbed to the Kingdom of War (thinking of e.g. the Polish companies fighting alongside the English in WW2, including the aerial Battle of Britain, or the Catholic Wild Geese companies of Irishmen fighting for the Habsburg Spaniards in the 80 years wars in the Netherlands).

 

Do you have the Army of Tomorrow in your lists? The Kethaelan company was only one out of ten such companies, if I remember the GTA essay on them correctly, and may not have survived the wars in Esrolia or the Dragonrise.

 

I am at the point of detailing Fronelan history from a military perspective; the Kingdom of War (in both of its aspects) will be covered, but I have very little information about it, and at present no insight of its hundred war cults.

The little I know of the Army of Tomorrow doesn't amount to very much. Am not certain if it is still canonical.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I am at the point of detailing Fronelan history from a military perspective; the Kingdom of War (in both of its aspects) will be covered, but I have very little information about it, and at present no insight of its hundred war cults.

I don't have much more than speculation, either, but the speculations I gathered over the years on the digest and similar platforms include weird incarnations of e.g. Vangono or Wachaza in the middle of the Janubian valley. I expect there to be at least three varieties of Tolat/Shargash/Vorthan, too. Possibly some extra underworld variants like Shadzor, too.

I would also expect most of the Seshnegi warrior societies to be present in some distorted form.

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The little I know of the Army of Tomorrow doesn't amount to very much. Am not certain if it is still canonical.

To be honest, neither am I, but there is nothing in the descriptions I remember that cannot be healed by replacing the term "knight" with either "man-of-all" or "Rokari noble".