The Eleven Lights artwork

[Mankcam]

On 12/31/2017 at 12:56 AM, waltshumate said:

Based on the artwork in The Eleven Lights have Orlanthi gone back to being based on Nordic/Anglo Saxons?

Red Cow Vol 2 uses alot of artwork from the King of Dragon Pass game which does evoke a very anglo-saxon flavour. From the outset it feels quite different to the Orlanthi as presented in the G2G. However it doesn't have to be entirely incorrect, as someone has already indicated, it could be portraying winter garb worn by Orlanthi during cooler seasons.

Red Cow Vol 1 has depictions of Orlanthi that look much more 'ancient mediterranean' and consistent with current interpretation of Orlanthi, so I would tend to focus on those pictures for Sartarites during the warm and hot seasons.

Another poster also highlighted earlier that cultural distinctions between attire may often not as distinct as iconic depictions often portray, and I agree with this. Some of the ancient Mediterranean clothing would be very similar in design to that worn by those above the Alps, except perhaps with different textiles etc.The black & white picture of the four Orlanthi characters that has been posted earlier in this thread ( looks like it may be from HQG) does look quite Mediterranean to me from the outset, however most of those characters could also be used to portray historical Vikings as well.

As an aside, Google Images can help just as much as other sources, especially with the various images from the Osprey books that often show up in general searches.

I tend to depict my Theyalan/Orlanthi peoples using ancient Thracians as a base analogy for weaponry & attire, adding influences from other peoples according to nationality and regional differences:

• For Sartarites I use Thracians + Achaeans.
• For Esrolians I use Thracians + Minoans.
• For Pavasites I use Thracians + Ionians.
• The further away from the urban centres, then the more 'rudimentary' I depict them.  The colder areas may tend to have some Dacian garb as well.

If I am going for more authenticity then I would highlight alot of cross-pollination between the influences, just like what happens with real-world cultures (especially world-weary travelers). However the broad brush strokes tend to be quite useful as reference points for most of my players.

At the end of the day you might find everyone portrays these cultures slightly differently, due to individual GMs filling in the gaps between 'canon' artwork with their own assumptions. That's really cool, as it allows for personal creativity with world-building within the signposts and structure provided by official products. I reckon you cherry-pick what you like, and just go with what you and your troupe prefer 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Mankcam

[Ian Cooper]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Red Cow Vol 2 uses alot of artwork from the King of Dragon Pass game which does evoke a very anglo-saxon flavour. From the outset it feels quite different to the Orlanthi as presented in the G2G. However it doesn't have to be entirely incorrect, as someone has already indicated, it could be portraying winter garb worn by Orlanthi during cooler seasons.

Red Cow Vol 1 has depictions of Orlanthi that look much more 'ancient mediterranean' and consistent with current interpretation of Orlanthi, so I would tend to focus on those pictures for Sartarites during the warm and hot seasons.

When wanting to know how the Orlanthi look now, I would opt for the artwork in The Coming Storm, which represents discussions that Jeff and I have had about how the Orlanthi look, over the King of Dragon Pass art that represents an older perspective on how the Orlanthi looked. That said, I would offer that the Orlanthi are a composite of European cultures, both around the Mediterranean (Mycenaen, Minoan even Assyrian) and the North Sea (Celtic, Nordic Bronze Age). We draw from both. As some have pointed out, areas on the Black Sea coast may also represent that fusion.

[g33k]

On 12/31/2017 at 4:26 PM, Tindalos said:

(Note how even in King of Dragon Pass, you can see a roughly square portion of land around the buildings. Although this is probably just due to how the forts are set up.)

 

KoDP is a 20-year-old computer wargame... I would presume any squarecentricity to be an artifact of the tech.   Same square-ness exists in Civ, FrEx.

[jeffjerwin]

18 minutes ago, g33k said:

KoDP is a 20-year-old computer wargame... I would presume any squarecentricity to be an artifact of the tech.   Same square-ness exists in Civ, FrEx.

In addition, we know that Vingkotling forts were round or oval (a practical shape if you're heaping earth or fortifying a hill) - compare Clearwine and the map of (I think - might be misremembering here) Two-top. While it is possible that the shape of the perimeters changed for ritual reasons, there ought to be a good reason for it.

[Yelm's Light]

On 12/31/2017 at 12:33 PM, Yelm's Light said:

But granting that, what's a Lunar building doing in Swenstown anyway?

I came up with my own rationale for this...Swenstown is a major trade outpost between Prax and Sartar, and as such would have strategic importance to the Lunars.  However, I can't recall them ever actually subjugating the place.  Does anyone else remember differently?

[David Scott]

All the details are in Sartar KoH. The Lunar Peace negotiated in 1613 allowed The Provincial Army is allowed to take control of the cities of Boldhome, Duck Point, Wilmskirk, Jonstown, Swenstown, Aldachur and Alone. Swenstown also became a “Pleasure Centre” for the Seven Mother’s cult. Given the destruction of the Dundelos Tribe who were part of the Swenstown confederation and the proximity of the New Lunar temple, it’s likely a slaver hub as well. The 1619 visit of the Crimson bat to the area is covered in the Sartar Companion. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by David Scott

[Flesh Man]

On 02/01/2018 at 12:18 AM, BWP said:

Who's "we"?  You can decide whatever feels right to you and go from there.  Speaking for myself, I don't find the evidence behind your initial statement very compelling ... mostly because you haven't supplied any.

 

You obviously have  not seen the artwork from KoDP which is quite obviously based on Nordic/Germanic sources, nor read the statements from Jeff stating the Orlanthi are nothing like those cultures. Unless you have decided to ignore all that evidence.

Edited January 3, 2018 by waltshumate

[jeffjerwin]

8 minutes ago, waltshumate said:

You obviously have  not seen the artwork from KoDP which is quite obviously based on Nordic/Germanic sources, nor read the statements from Jeff stating the Orlanthi are nothing like those cultures. Unless you have decided to ignore all that evidence.

Let's take a deep breath...

KoDP based the Heortlings on Icelanders. There was nothing to contradict this explicitly at the time, though early 80s art suggested a more Bronze-Age direction.

However, winter dress is going to be different from summer dress: the KoDP is clothing fit for a colder climate.

For a modern version of Thracian traditional women's dress, see here - the common features in color and pattern with Slavic attire (and a bit of Scandinavian embroidery tradition as well) is noticeable, but there is in fact cultural continuity in the very festivals (i.e., the Goose Dance) that these groups still celebrate: 

Weirdly enough, the Thracians were claimed as ancestors by the Scandinavians, based on a supposed origin of the Aesir in "Asia" and Thor from "Thrace".

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Let's take a deep breath...

KoDP based the Heortlings on Icelanders. There was nothing to contradict this explicitly at the time, though early 80s art suggested a more Bronze-Age direction.

Did it? I don't see sod-wall longhouses anywhere in that game, nor are the horses period-appropriate pony-sized.

Early 80s art uses Republican Greek Hoplite style. That's a millennium removed from their bronze Age, which coincidentally is about the same temporal distance between early Viking Age and the start of the Roman Iron Age which follows their own Bronze Age. And neither attire nor housing style changed much from the Roman Iron Age to Viking Age.

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Weirdly enough, the Thracians were claimed as ancestors by the Scandinavians, based on a supposed origin of the Aesir in "Asia" and Thor from "Thrace".

If you believe Snorri Sturlason's Heimskringla, the Aesir-worshipping Ynglings (ancestors of the Norwegin kings) followed the route of the Corded Ware culture (which I still remember as "Battle Axe" culture) from Anatolia through the general neighborhood of Thrace (aka lower Danubian plains) into Scandinavia. Snorri didn't know about the Corded Ware culture, but there must have been some tribal memory of having hailed from far away.

Those linguists' hobby horses aren't worth much. Asia Minor would be spot on for Snorri's story, but Thor is spelled and pronounced "Tor" in Anglian place names dedicated to the thunderer, without any "th" (while other local sites like thing-places clearly have the "th" spelling).

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Did it? I don't see sod-wall longhouses anywhere in that game, nor are the horses period-appropriate pony-sized.

 

(I stand corrected on the RQ2 Art, sorry)

In terms of Icelandic apparel - if not buildings: see this : http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/daily_living/text/clothing.htm - I mean, the Orlanthi women in the game even have keys (from that link)

: 

Dunham talks about Icelandic sagas in this interview here: http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2011/02/interview-with-man-behind-king-of.html

To be honest, I seem to have assumed that the art reflected these ideas. But I now see it's not so straightforward,

[Jenx]

13 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

KoDP based the Heortlings on Icelanders. There was nothing to contradict this explicitly at the time, though early 80s art suggested a more Bronze-Age direction.

 

This bit in particular is not really, technically true. There was something (or someone) to contradict this - Greg Stafford himself. He simply didn't, because...well, this was David's game, so David should get a say in how the Orlanthi look in his own game. Your Glorantha Will Vary and all that.

[Jeff]

23 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

I came up with my own rationale for this...Swenstown is a major trade outpost between Prax and Sartar, and as such would have strategic importance to the Lunars.  However, I can't recall them ever actually subjugating the place.  Does anyone else remember differently?

I'm curious - what is the Lunar building you are referring to? Andrey and I are certainly unaware of any!

[Steve]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I'm curious - what is the Lunar building you are referring to? Andrey and I are certainly unaware of any!

I'm guessing here, but I wonder if it's a reference to what looks like a moon rune at the top of the building in the centre of the background?

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Steve said:

I'm guessing here, but I wonder if it's a reference to what looks like a moon rune at the top of the building in the centre of the background?

You mean the circular window?

[Steve]

Just now, Jeff said:

You mean the circular window?

Yes, but I'm only guessing and I could be wrong as to what @Yelm's Light was referring to.

[Jeff]

Just now, Steve said:

Yes, but I'm only guessing and I could be wrong as to what @Yelm's Light was referring to.

That's just a fanciful window I think. It certainly was not intended by either of us to be a Lunar decoration. But heck, it could be a remaining bit of Lunar decorations from the building's former owner.

[Mankcam]

15 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

KoDP based the Heortlings on Icelanders.

I think you used the specific term 'Icelandic' when perhaps it may have been better using something like  'Anglo-Saxon' instead. There may be an even broader term than that, but I'm not aware of it, perhaps 'Germanic' possibly.

Lots of differences within a broad ethnic group, you have to be careful at times. For example it is akin to saying that all groups in Asia are 'Chinese', which is obviously completely incorrect, and likely to cause offense. And this is a tough crowd when it comes to anthropology and archaeology and such, you'll find professional academics on the topics loitering everywhere in here.

But I do see the point you were getting at. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Mankcam

[David Scott]

If we’re going to base stuff on tiny artist squiggles then clearly the rear shop with the awning centre left is a lunar building too, it has moon phases on its front :-)

[jeffjerwin]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

If we’re going to base stuff on tiny artist squiggles then clearly the rear shop with the awning centre left is a lunar building too, it has moon phases on its front :-)

 

Oh pshaw. Those are Darkness Runes. The shop belongs to a Torkani initiate of Argan Argar. Far more likely in Swenstown this talk of Etyries...

[Yelm's Light]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

I'm curious - what is the Lunar building you are referring to? Andrey and I are certainly unaware of any!

Yes, the one in the center background.  Not only does it have what appeared to me to be a moon rune, it's octagonal to boot.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[M Helsdon]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 6:48 PM, jeffjerwin said:

Weirdly enough, the Thracians were claimed as ancestors by the Scandinavians, based on a supposed origin of the Aesir in "Asia" and Thor from "Thrace".

Um, no. The Thracian thunder god was Zibelthiurdos, and it's a mite tricky to derive Thor from Zibelthiurdos....(unless you chop the front and back off to get Thiur). Of course, Zibelthiurdos was usually equated with Zeus, but all the Indo-European pantheons are filled with storm gods, and ideas travel easier than people...

Of course, in Glorantha, Orlanth is perhaps only the local Southern Theyalan version of the name of the Storm God; we know the Dara Happans know of the names Orlanat(um), Orlanat(us), Erlandus, and Lanatum, all perhaps (mangled) North Theyalan names. However, in a desire for sanity, Orlanth is a good approximation.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

it's octagonal to boot

Well spotted, one side for each of the seven lunar phases.

[jeffjerwin]

4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Um, no. The Thracian thunder god was Zibelthiurdos, and it's a mite tricky to derive Thor from Zibelthiurdos....(unless you chop the front and back off to get Thiur). Of course, Zibelthiurdos was usually equated with Zeus, but all the Indo-European pantheons are filled with storm gods, and ideas travel easier than people...

Of course, in Glorantha, Orlanth is perhaps only the local Southern Theyalan version of the name of the Storm God; we know the Dara Happans know of the names Orlanat(um), Orlanat(us), Erlandus, and Lanatum, all perhaps (mangled) North Theyalan names. However, in a desire for sanity, Orlanth is a good approximation.

I should mention that this was pseudo-historical rubbish - Snorri Sturluson seems to have invented the idea. In the Middle Ages/Renaissance period, historians (and rulers) wanted to derive everyone from Biblical and Trojan ancestors (Japheth was equated with Iapetus or with Jupiter). No one but kooks believe this today. There is no evidence of a connection between the Scandinavians and the Balkan peoples except as Indo-Europeans. Another such claim was that the Getae were the Goths and the Jutes.

In Glorantha such claims might have a bit more foundation.

 

I tend to think there was once many Orlanths, not fewer, but that is part because of looking how "Zeus" has many mountains and many birthplaces. In the God-time, all could be true. There's also the conflating of Orlanth with Humath/Umat/Umath.

[jeffjerwin]

7 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Well spotted, one side for each of the seven lunar phases.

An octagon has eight sides. You mean a heptagon. It's possible however, if we are viewing it at the right angle.

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[M Helsdon]

14 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I should mention that this was pseudo-historical rubbish - Snorri Sturluson seems to have invented the idea.

I know.

15 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

In Glorantha such claims might have a bit more foundation.

In Time perhaps, but everything before is derived from the garbled memories of mortals of a world they barely understand. There were very few human survivors of the Darkness, and they had more on their minds than history. Even the Dara Happan record, with its convenient dates conveniently based in their sacred numbers is suspect.