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waltshumate

The Eleven Lights artwork

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Considering the mix of art in the book (old and new), the art of King of Dragon Pass,  Sartar:KoH, Sartar Companion, Guide and HeroQuest Glorantha, i'd say it continues to reinforce the diversity of the Orlanthi as a people. The descriptions in the Guide are still very present. Much of art description for new artists is based on pre-existing art and you'll see this in RQG:

merchant-caravan-4.jpg?t=1511606848

and 13G:

89cdbb028fea45e28d0b97b039edbc60_origina

 

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Keep in mind that what artwork there is in the book comes almost entirely from King of Dragon Pass, which was released something like twenty years ago.

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2 hours ago, waltshumate said:

Based on the artwork in The Eleven Lights have Orlanthi gone back to being based on Nordic/Anglo Saxons?

Let's just accept that Anglo-Saxons had not a very distinct look. Their dress and equipment would have been right at home with the contemporary slavs and other agricultural folk north of the Alps and along the Danube valley.

Neither Anglo-Saxons nor (hornless) Vikings look very special, they are quite interchangeable with any warrior-farmer culture of that climate up to the steppes around the Ural. Their shield form is the most telling, give them a rectangular shield and an occasional Etruscan style helmet, and you get continental Celts from the Danube region, at least in winter.

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2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Considering the mix of art in the book (old and new), the art of King of Dragon Pass,  Sartar:KoH, Sartar Companion, Guide and HeroQuest Glorantha, i'd say it continues to reinforce the diversity of the Orlanthi as a people. The descriptions in the Guide are still very present. Much of art description for new artists is based on pre-existing art and you'll see this in RQG:

merchant-caravan-4.jpg?t=1511606848

 

That's more evocative of Pavis than Boldhome to me.  Biturian and Norayeep in native(-ish) garb and a prominently displayed Lunar building?  The woman petting the bison looks like an Earth goddess type, Ernalda or Eiritha, though since she's only partially visible there's not a lot of info available.  Granted, Biturian is haggling with a fellow Issaries trader, and the girl is Humakti (not all redheads are Vingans...).

That last brings up an annoying peeve of mine, that the Humakti is wearing a 'female' breastplate.  It identifies her as a woman for purposes of the artwork; the character looks androgynous enough that there could be confusion as to her gender otherwise.  But no warrior worth her salt would wear it if she ever planned on fighting.

Edited by Yelm's Light

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3 hours ago, waltshumate said:

Based on the artwork in The Eleven Lights have Orlanthi gone back to being based on Nordic/Anglo Saxons?

No.

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49 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

That's more evocative of Pavis than Boldhome to me.  Biturian and Norayeep in native(-ish) garb and a prominently displayed Lunar building?  The woman petting the bison looks like an Earth goddess type, Ernalda or Eiritha, though since she's only partially visible there's not a lot of info available.  Granted, Biturian is haggling with a fellow Issaries trader, and the girl is Humakti (not all redheads are Vingans...).

That last brings up an annoying peeve of mine, that the Humakti is wearing a 'female' breastplate.  It identifies her as a woman for purposes of the artwork; the character looks androgynous enough that there could be confusion as to her gender otherwise.  But no warrior worth her salt would wear it if she ever planned on fighting.

I suspect she's supposed to be the same warrior as found on the classic RQ2 rules cover and the quick start for the upcoming rules.

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12 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I suspect she's supposed to be the same warrior as found on the classic RQ2 rules cover and the quick start for the upcoming rules.

If it is, the artist doesn't seem to know very much about the background.  The girl on the cover of RQ2 (and the QS) is shown wearing only the Fertility Rune, not something you'd be very likely to see on a Humakti.

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15 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

If it is, the artist doesn't seem to know very much about the background.  The girl on the cover of RQ2 (and the QS) is shown wearing only the Fertility Rune, not something you'd be very likely to see on a Humakti.

 Yes, you're right. Huh. Still, the outfits are rather similar. Perhaps she had a mid-life change of religious focus... Though they have different tattoos. I think the look is descended from the old artwork (and the new) but, you're right, they've got to be different people.

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12 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I suspect she's supposed to be the same warrior as found on the classic RQ2 rules cover and the quick start for the upcoming rules.

Luise's warrior on the RQ2 cover is not Vasana (one of our pre-gens and a POV character in the rules). And Vasana is not a Humakt initiate (although she is strong with the Death Rune).

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13 hours ago, Jeff said:

And as a final aside, it is set in Swenstown not Boldhome or New Pavis.

I'm not sure what was supposed to give us the idea that those are the QS characters, other than that it will appear in RQ:G.  There's no mention of them ever having been in Swenstown together, let alone separately, in the QS.  And Swenstown is just about as far from the action of The Broken Tower as it's possible to get.  Both Boldhome and Wilm's Church are closer, although probably the better candidate would've been Wilm's Church.  But granting that, what's a Lunar building doing in Swenstown anyway?

However, going back to the QS and looking at her picture, that's definitely Vasana in the art above, with her riding bison.  (She's an Orlanth Adventurous initiate.)

Edited by Yelm's Light

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14 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

I'm not sure what was supposed to give us the idea that those are the QS characters, other than that it will appear in RQ:G.  There's no mention of them ever having been in Swenstown together, let alone separately, in the QS.  And Swenstown is just about as far from the action of The Broken Tower as it's possible to get.  Both Boldhome and Wilm's Church are closer, although probably the better candidate would've been Wilm's Church.  But granting that, what's a Lunar building doing in Swenstown anyway?

However, going back to the QS and looking at her picture, that's definitely Vasana in the art above, with her riding bison.  (She's an Orlanth Adventurous initiate.)

Given that it is a preview of art from RQ:G, there's no reason to assume it has another to do with the QS (except that the pregens in the QS come from the pregens in RQG). I'm just letting folk know that it is Swenstown.

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On 30/12/2017 at 5:24 PM, Joerg said:

Let's just accept that Anglo-Saxons had not a very distinct look. Their dress and equipment would have been right at home with the contemporary slavs and other agricultural folk north of the Alps and along the Danube valley.

Neither Anglo-Saxons nor (hornless) Vikings look very special, they are quite interchangeable with any warrior-farmer culture of that climate up to the steppes around the Ural. Their shield form is the most telling, give them a rectangular shield and an occasional Etruscan style helmet, and you get continental Celts from the Danube region, at least in winter.

Anglo-Saxons may well look similar to  Slavs  but they look nothing like ancient Italians or this Orlanthi.png.c62d7c4c74ad9655208e40769f2

 

And this Quote from Jeff

Quote

But one thing I really want to emphasize is that the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass are NOT Vikings, Irish or British Celts, or La Tene spiky haired Celts, or ancient Germans. They have a very different background, context, and society. And so naturally they have different architecture, different clothing, and different appearance. 

Same thing  for steads/buildings the previously much maligned artwork from King of Dragon Pass, which is now reappearing, looks nothing like what we  were told Orlanthi buildings look like.

570029dc7c77d_OrlanthiHouses7.thumb.PNG.

Jeff

Quote

Martin's sketches are pretty darn close to canonical and are being used as art references right now.

56dd8ac3746dd_ScreenShot2016-03-07at3.05

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Edited by waltshumate

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How I see it is ideally an Orlanthi stead should occupy a rough square, an Earth Rune.

Unfortunately, geography and wealth don't always allow for the entire square to be built over. So what's often done is to have half a stead occupied by a hall/longhouse. The other half may be occupied by cottar's cottages, animal pens, or gardens. And in hill forts, you'll often see them not being in a square, since it's difficult to get a proper square in a spiral. You'll often just see clustered buildings surrounded by a fence to mark off a stead. The map of Dangerford in the Coming Storm (page 76) shows a few of these off. Geo's Creek Inn in particular shows signs of developing into a proper squarehouse. Another example comes later with Stonegate Fort (page 112) where many are developing into proper houses.

(Note how even in King of Dragon Pass, you can see a roughly square portion of land around the buildings. Although this is probably just due to how the forts are set up.)

Steads.png.8909306f0826306b27c89aed9a55ae95.png

 

Edited by Tindalos

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10 hours ago, waltshumate said:

Anglo-Saxons may well look similar to  Slavs  but they look nothing like ancient Italians or this Orlanthi.png.c62d7c4c74ad9655208e40769f2

Do you know that the second person from the left may be pretty much how Viking girls (!) dressed in summer? There is a very nice "skirt" which consists of lots of tassles which used to be on display at Hedeby museum (their undergoing a rebuild right now). Tunics are documented as summer wear for these folk, too - they wouldn't add a cloak the way the person on the right does, though. The dresses are dresses, when all is said and done, and wouldn't be out of place anywhere.

Orlanthi male summer dress may be unsuitable for publications... holy men with special relationship to the air around them can afford to go sky-clad year round without letting the cold attack them, but non-magical individuals may fall back to that option in Fire Season as an acceptable way to leave the house. A hat to ward off the glare of the sun still is much appreciated, like the guy in second position sports.

There is ample evidence of historical Europeans dropping textiles, whether Greek gymnasts or Celtic warriors. Anglo-Saxons and Vikings weren't different. While we have few contemporary accounts, it took extra effort of the church to impose our "modern" prudish insistence on covering the body throughout Europe, whether applied to topless Venetian belles at the beach in the 16th century, common nudity in bath houses all over Europe, or shared steam baths further up north.

 

10 hours ago, waltshumate said:

And this Quote from Jeff

Same thing  for steads/buildings the previously much maligned artwork from King of Dragon Pass, which is now reappearing, looks nothing like what we  were told Orlanthi buildings look like.

570029dc7c77d_OrlanthiHouses7.thumb.PNG.

Jeff

56dd8ac3746dd_ScreenShot2016-03-07at3.05

  •  

 

I take that to be one style of Orlanthi housing, probably tied to the Axe Orlanthi, and not exactly optimized for colder climate. If anything, that style screams "Roman villa at the Limes" to me.

Earth culture predates Storm culture. Esrolia Land of 10k Goddesses has stories about submission to Harono the local sun god which was ended (or replaced, if you ask the grandmothers) by the arrival of storm, and it asserts that their culture was still older than the sun god taking charge.

This gives us all manner of traditions that may be inherited. Elmali might have favored round houses with the hearth in the center, and it might be the preferred style of Mahome in her role as hearth fire.

 

Attire and housing are always adapted to function and the environment at the time a style develops. Since we are talking about Glorantha, runic shape matters, and has practical consequences, but building material and the conditions a bilding has to withstand matter a lot, too.

Earth temples like to dig in deeply into the soil, but this is highly impractical if not impossible if you are living on a fluvial lowland with high ground water levels, like e.g. the Rhine or Nile deltas or the Bengal estuaries. If you want such an underground edifice there, you will first have to raise the mound you want to build it on (or raise the mound around your building, although that would be cheating - part of the point of such a temple is to dig into the earth).

Orlanthi seating arrangements indicating status are incitive to have a single, long table, or a U-shaped arrangement of tables on occasions like weddings, which favor a long drinking hall. (The architectural challenges to build a square hall at such dimensions are considerable, too, whereas the A-frame with or without supporting walls has been in use since the Neolithicum - also among the farmer/hunters in the New World.)

 

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13 hours ago, waltshumate said:

So we should ignore it and chalk it up to a tight artwork budget?

Personally, I always ignore artwork, as it represents a moment in time, what one person thought part of Glorantha looks like at that time. This varies over time and by artist, so I simply use artwork as a guide.

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11 hours ago, Tindalos said:

How I see it is ideally an Orlanthi stead should occupy a rough square, an Earth Rune.

There are a lot of other influences. An Orlanth stead in Heortland will be different to one in Sartar, or Tarsh or Aggar. Geography influences the shape of a stead, as does local culture.

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9 hours ago, Joerg said:

I take that to be one style of Orlanthi housing, probably tied to the Axe Orlanthi, and not exactly optimized for colder climate. If anything, that style screams "Roman villa at the Limes" to me.

The related illustrations include versions more suited to Sartar and Esrolia, with thatched and tiled roofs, respectively. The house shown is from Pavis.

Here are a few from the related series. Note that further research indicates that the outer walls in all cases are too thin.

I am currently working on a 'fortified palace'.

56e06c3fa2e5f_OrlanthiHouses4.PNG.75b2d2e52dfde84437e72d6dd5e13515.png

b7bb9ffe5f78cb147aebdd32cd3c3bbe (2).jpg

 

Houses.png

Edited by M Helsdon
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On 1/1/2018 at 9:41 AM, waltshumate said:

So we should ignore it and chalk it up to a tight artwork budget?

Who's "we"?  You can decide whatever feels right to you and go from there.  Speaking for myself, I don't find the evidence behind your initial statement very compelling ... mostly because you haven't supplied any.

 

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12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The related illustrations include versions more suited to Sartar and Esrolia, with thatched and tiled roofs, respectively. The house shown is from Pavis.

Here are a few from the related series. Note that further research indicates that the outer walls in all cases are too thin.

I am currently working on a 'fortified palace'.

What style roof is used in Hendrikiland?

Having had adobe houses in my family (and a friend lives in one down the road), the outer walls ought to be about four or five feet thick. Wide enough to lie down in the eaves of the windows and nap, if I recall correctly from my childhood.

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5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

What style roof is used in Hendrikiland?

Having had adobe houses in my family (and a friend lives in one down the road), the outer walls ought to be about four or five feet thick. Wide enough to lie down in the eaves of the windows and nap, if I recall correctly from my childhood.

Roof styles depend on location. Terracotta tiles, wood shingles, and thatch are all known. I suspect tiles are often a sign of status.

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