Active Fireblade?

[HreshtIronBorne]

With Firblade now being an Active spell I am wondering how it is to be used at all? The rules for Active spells state that fighting is a big no no if you are maintaining an active spell. Would someone need to be maintain the spell on your weapon for you?

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

With Firblade now being an Active spell I am wondering how it is to be used at all? The rules for Active spells state that fighting is a big no no if you are maintaining an active spell. Would someone need to be maintain the spell on your weapon for you?

Fireblade has always been an active spell (just checked for RQ2).  Looking at the rules:

Quote

A few spells, such as Control, Darkwall, Fireblade,
Lightwall, and Summon, are active and require some
concentration and attention by the caster to continue functioning
as desired.

P255

Quote

Controlling an animal during battle requires concentration.
An active spell such as Fireblade is impossible to
maintain due to the concentration the spell needs.

P167 (and also on p220)

So hitting and parrying appears to be fine but riding a horse is a no-no.  By extension, I could also assume that casting another spell is also a no-no.

Edited July 8, 2018 by metcalph

[HreshtIronBorne]

I had not seen that in the rulebook. Good catch. That still leaves me wondering whether or not you can fireblade two weapons or ever use a spell like Create Wildfire like the rulebook to suggests to boost a fireblade?

[Skovari]

And what sort of roll do you need to make if damaged in combat to maintain it?

[Marc]

I haven't seen any mention of it ending when damaged in RQG.  However RQ2 said "If the character using the spell takes physical or magical damage the FIreblade goes away".   I'm trying to remember, but when I ran an RQ2 campaign back in the early '80's, I think we kinda missed that part of the rules, and the Fireblade was maintained.  In hindsight, I think some kind of roll would be appropriate.  Maybe a resistance roll of INT vs damage?

[simonh]

That’s interesting, the whole section on page 168 on controlling a mount in battle, which mentions Fireblade, is repeated on page 221. Is that a known issue?

 

[MJ Sadique]

8 hours ago, Skovari said:

And what sort of roll do you need to make if damaged in combat to maintain it?

Magic / Spells / Type of spells / p247 : Intx3 roll

...If the caster tries to
-throw another spell
-is attacked in spirit combat
-takes physical or magical damages
-has something unexpected happen.
The caster must make a concentration roll (INTx3 as a percentage) or the effects of the spell cease...

10 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would someone need to be maintain the spell on your weapon for you?

No you can't... because the spell parameters are touch and active; So the caster of the spell need to always touch the weapon for it to work AND concentrate to maintain it active.

 

As a RQ3 player, The spell was pretty limitative in rq2 as you needed a focus on your sword to be able to use it. Now, You can only use it for yourself, and the spell is cancelled if you lost your weapon (touch) or concentrate on something else (horse ridding, using another spell or a bow). In some sense, this is more a berserk spell than a warrior spell.

The 3D6 Fireblade damages are colossal if used on dagger and short sword but for a 4pts spell, I think that Truesword (Dx2) or even a bladesharp 4 (+20%, D+4) are a lot more usefull since you can "share" them and they are passive spell.

3 hours ago, simonh said:

That’s interesting, the whole section on page 168 on controlling a mount in battle, which mentions Fireblade, is repeated on page 221. Is that a known issue?

Do not know but I stumbled on a funnier one :

The Most STUPID thing about Fireblade is you CANNOT fight with it because as state in Magic / Spells / Type of spells (p247) : "Spell casters trying to maintain an active spell are limited to a movement rate of 4 meters per melee round and they can do no fighting."

So if you see a fireblade, just walk because the fireblade user is limited at tremendous speed of 1,2km/h and they CAN'T fight... XD

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

14 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would someone need to be maintain the spell on your weapon for you?

No you can't... because the spell parameters are touch and active; So the caster of the spell need to always touch the weapon for it to work AND concentrate to maintain it active.

The way I see it, you need an allied spirit in a gauntlet or similar, or in the weapon itself, to cast the spell for you. That way the concentration is only in danger when the spirit-holding item is damaged or attacked, and mounted attacks aren't much of a problem, either.

The other use is to stand in a pike formation with planted pikes ablaze with magical fire. Probably a standard move for a Men-and-a-half formation and for Caladraland spear formations (like at Pennel Ford), and sadly unavailable to Sun Domers. In that case, the flaming blade is very much a deterrent to whichever mount is approaching, much more than the actual damage, and not much less frightful to the front ranks of any attackers on foot.

The prohibition against mounted combat doesn't take awakened herd beast mounts for the Praxians or other intelligent mounts into account, either. Fighting from such a mount will be similar to fighting from a chariot.

 

That paragraph on active spells (p.247)  has a few other problems, too, like the statement excluding divine Rune spells, as mentioned in the Magic vs. magic thread.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Joerg

[g33k]

Has @Jason Durall seen this thread and the issues raised?

The duplication of text, Fireblade needing someone ELSE (than the combatant who uses it) to cast it, because Active (and while we are at it ... Any other "Active" spells that are too action-oriented to be used???)

[HreshtIronBorne]

I also noticed in the section on maintaining spells and riding that better trained mounts make maintaining active spells possible/trivial. 

 

Under Mounted Combat Skills P.167

Controlling an animal during battle requires concen-
tration. An active spell such as Fireblade is impossible to 
maintain due to the concentration the spell needs.
A cavalry animal is trained to remain under control in 
combat: Ride rolls are not needed and active spells can 
be maintained.
A trained war animal fights for itself and the rider needs 
only to sit on the animal, so that Ride rolls are not necessary 
and active spells can be cast.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

The caster must make a concentration roll (INTx3 as a percentage) or the effects of the spell cease...

No you can't... because the spell parameters are touch and active; So the caster of the spell need to always touch the weapon for it to work AND concentrate to maintain it active.

Does Touch mean that you have to maintain contact? I thought it meant that you had to be touching the target when casting the spell, not that contact had to be maintained.

 

As a RQ3 player, The spell was pretty limitative in rq2 as you needed a focus on your sword to be able to use it. Now, You can only use it for yourself, and the spell is cancelled if you lost your weapon (touch) or concentrate on something else (horse ridding, using another spell or a bow). In some sense, this is more a berserk spell than a warrior spell.

The 3D6 Fireblade damages are colossal if used on dagger and short sword but for a 4pts spell, I think that Truesword (Dx2) or even a bladesharp 4 (+20%, D+4) are a lot more usefull since you can "share" them and they are passive spell.

Fireblade was Active in RQ2 but not in RQ3, I prefer it being Passive, personally.

Although it does a lot of damage, a good Bladesharp or Truesword is generally more useful. We found that Fireblade in RQ2 was a second-best spell, except when fighting Gorp, who could only be damaged by fire. We also found that we would cast Extension 1 on Fireblade, as that made it a passive spell. Not sure if that is still the case in RQG, though.

 

Do not know but I stumbled on a funnier one :

The Most STUPID thing about Fireblade is you CANNOT fight with it because as state in Magic / Spells / Type of spells (p247) : "Spell casters trying to maintain an active spell are limited to a movement rate of 4 meters per melee round and they can do no fighting."

So if you see a fireblade, just walk because the fireblade user is limited at tremendous speed of 1,2km/h and they CAN'T fight... XD

Agreed, that is really stupid.

It looks as though the Active description was put on for magic users who cast complex spells, without any thought for fighters who need to concentrate to use a combat spell.

I'd get rid of the "No fighting" bit, but keep the reduced speed, as they need to concentrate on keeping the spell going.

[PhilHibbs]

I don't think I have ever noticed that it is active, or seen it run as such!

[soltakss]

33 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think I have ever noticed that it is active, or seen it run as such!

We did - "I run at the broos with my Fireblade", "One of them shoots you in the arm and does 6 point of damage, your armour stops 5 so you take 1 point of damage", "Damn, my Fireblade goes down".

[simonh]

I don’t really remember anyone using it much. 4 points of Bladesharp does about the same damage with most weapons, and you also get +20% to hit. Being an active spell makes it even less appealing.

Edited July 8, 2018 by simonh

[styopa]

52 minutes ago, simonh said:

I don’t really remember anyone using it much. 4 points of Bladesharp does about the same damage with most weapons, and you also get +20% to hit. Being an active spell makes it even less appealing.

Plus, for us the most important point was that with Bladesharp you can still crit.

 

[Joerg]

35 minutes ago, simonh said:

I don’t really remember anyone using it much. 4 points of Bladesharp does about the same damage with most weapons, and you also get +20% to hit. Being an active spell makes it even less appealing.

Fireblade sounds like the spell of choice for weak characters without damage bonus (or with negative ones), or for the formation use I suggested (and attested in Gloranthan sources).

Being an active spell meant that you could switch it off and sheath your blade as soon as the combat was over, rather than having to wait out five very visible minutes in potentially hostile or flammable environment.

You don't have to attack directly, either - igniting some of the scenery can alter the scene significantly, too. Few ropes last more than two melee rounds of exposure, and ship hulls are quite susceptible, too.

As far as I remember, Bladesharp 3 was the best in my RQ3 games, but combined with sorcerous Damage Boost and personal damage bonus easily outdid the Fireblade damage. On the other hand, I witnessed a scene in our university gaming club where such a combination with about 6 points of additional damage just bounced off the natural armor of a(n in Gloranthan terms dream) dragon. The character returned with Truesword and full intensity Damage Boost atop the biggest Bladesharp available, and finally managed to hurt the opponent significantly. The accumulated defensive magic practically glowed in daylight, too.

[BWP]

The RQ2 rules explicitly state that Fireblade was an active spell because it was so powerful (presumably in comparison to other battle magic spell combinations).  So really it's just there to stop the game from getting unbalanced.  The only problem with that is that it was nonsense; the balancing factor for Fireblade was the POW cost.  In actual play Fireblade wielders were rare because of the cost, and because other combat spells (primarily Bladesharp) gave better "bang for the buck" in most situations (and were typically easier to get).  Fireblade was the spell you kept up your sleeve for "special situations" (like fighting gorp) -- ideally it was kept in a spell matrix, not in your head.  Also, to be honest, I'm pretty sure that we usually ignored the "lose it if you take damage" part of the spell description, although it's been an awful long time since I played a game using the RQ2 rules and I can't really remember any specifics.

Clearly this was realised for RQ3, when no spirit (or divine) magic was classed as "active".

There doesn't seem to me to be any sensible reason for RQG to follow RQ2 here and not RQ3 (other than the new game's inexplicable reluctance to adopt any improvements from RQ3, of course).

 

[Cawdorthane]

It would be great if Jason could respond to this issue.  As written Fireblade can only effectively work at all if it is cast by a Bound Spirit, otherwise as soon you lift your arm to swing with your Firebladed weapon in anger, it goes out... even without the caster suffering any damage or any other break to his/her concentration (p.247):

"...Spell casters trying to maintain an active spell are limited to a movement rate of 4 meters per melee round and they can do no fighting."

Indeed, if so you would be an absolute mug (or a Duck) not to take Bladesharp IV....

cheers

Mark

Ps I do not think it would help to cast it through a Spell Matrix either, as there is no stated exception as to not having to maintain concentration for active spells so cast:  see pp.265 and 344-345

Edited July 19, 2018 by Cawdorthane

[PhilHibbs]

I think it's pretty obvious that you can attack while you have Fireblade up. Taking damage would need the usual concentration roll.

[simonh]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think it's pretty obvious that you can attack while you have Fireblade up. Taking damage would need the usual concentration roll.

The question is does that mean the rules for active spells need to change, or does Fireblade need to become a passive spell?

[Atgxtg]

53 minutes ago, simonh said:

The question is does that mean the rules for active spells need to change, or does Fireblade need to become a passive spell?

More like does that mean the rules need to unchange. Fireblade worked fine as a active spell in RQ2, and as a passive spell in RQ3. It's just doesn't work as written now. 

[jps]

In the meantime I'm going to consider Fireblade to be a passive spell.