Sphinxes in Glorantha

[jeffjerwin]

Curiously, I can find no evidence that there are Greek or Egyptian style sphinxes in Glorantha. Are they mentioned anywhere? I suspect they make sense as inhabitants of Beast Valley, given the presence of manticores, fauns, and minotaurs there... Or maybe they make sense as spirits (compare the picture on p.364 of the new RQ rules, where there is a similarly structured man-deer). Thoughts?

 

Edit: I have discovered that the deuterocanonical Dara Happa Stirs mentions depictions of Shargash as a male Egyptian-style Sphinx, which makes a great deal of sense. Perhaps the Greek sphinx could be used as a model for an Alkothi demoness.

Edited November 16, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[The God Learner]

Without considering any prior work, I'd like to see sphinxes in the Wastelands and that they have some strong association with Genert's Garden. Some should be wounded by Chaos. Some might be mighty pre-Dawn remnants who still stalk the world. As a rule solitary. Illumination due to riddling optional. 

One surprise could be that they guard the last and secret remnant of the Garden (... achingly green, solemnly still, with a tomb). 

[Darius West]

Firstly, what an interesting topic.

Now in terms of Beast Valley, it is important to remember that the creatures of Beast Valley are escapees of Delecti's vivisection zoo in the EWF (Are we not men?  No, because then the Dragonkill would have wiped us out too).  So any sphinx found in Beast Valley would be a re-creation saved by Ironhoof's hero questing.

Now sphinxes are leonine, much like manticores, and as such is a form of chimerical creature like others in Beast Valley.  On the other hand, the Lion is a powerful totem and as a part of Hsunchen worship would be associated with Basmol.  It is possible to view a sphinx as a partially transformed Basmoli i.e. limbs and torso transformed, but not head.  It is worth noting that Tada slew Basmol (and so did nearly everyone else for that matter).  The Basmoli in Genertela originally came from Pamaltela to help fight Chaos before Time, along with the Agimori, and are still around in Prax.  There are still a number of Basmoli tribes around.

Now in Peloria, the alternate lion deity Durbaddath is worshipped, and is in fact the father of Votank (ancestor of the Votanki of Balazaar) and is depicted on the Gods Wall III-18.  On the other hand, he is depicted as having the head of a Lion and the body of a man... but that in itself suggests a reversal in the case of servitors perhaps?

There is also a celestial lion on the Sky Dome (star-39)

For my money though, the place to look for a sphinx would be on the Plateau of Statues in the Wastes.

[Joerg]

To be honest, the existence of sphinxes - especially those with a king's head in Egypt - are a puzzle to me.

To top a predator whose main attack is its bite (or an aggressive herbivore with head-butt) with a human head is sub-optimal with regard to its lethality. The Manticore just about pulls this off with its quite distorted human-ish face and pronounced jaw.

Human head inside a lion's mane may symbolize some form of great magical (or divine) power. The cherubim in Solomon's temple were similar chimera entities, completely non-humanoid. Such an entity may have a spiritual lion's head (or similar, depending on the body type) which does the attacks.

Manticores and sphinxes lack hands, and that makes them not-beastmen, but rather man-beasts. Much as I admire cat's paws for their utility, they aren't quite evolved to produce anything resembling a material culture.

There are a few border-line cases in Glorantha. The Morokanth have a rudimentary material culture, working flint, wood and leather. The Ouori use some tools despite their lack of manual dexterity. And Zabdamar males have similarly poor manual equipment. But the only way an entity like a sphinx can participate in a culture would be in a more humanoid incarnation/manifestation, or with servants that act like remote hands.

Or, more likely, a sphinx is a lesser manifestation of a greater entity, similar to dream dragons, a manifestation of solar majesty through the mighty body and aurora of the lion's mane.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or, more likely, a sphinx is a lesser manifestation of a greater entity, similar to dream dragons, a manifestation of solar majesty through the mighty body and aurora of the lion's mane.

That's how I think of them in the context of this discussion, although like @The God Learner I also associate them with Earth and the lost Genert's Garden for some reason. It might be that their traces in the RW are statues, or it might be their monumental size or something, I'm not sure - but I could see them being essentially some kind of Demigod who acts as a protector of temples or holy sites, tests traveling mystics or initiates, and receive offerings for their work. This is within the context of the God Time, whether they'd still be extant in Time I don't know, but it doesn't sound outright implausible from what I know. More tie to their holy sites, maybe.

What I don't quite see them as are straight-up lion-men (or men-lions). That just doesn't quite feel like it does these ancient beings justice, but this is all personal preference.

[soltakss]

One of our RQ2 locations was The Acid Pits. The only way up was via an Illuminated flying griffin who riddled the PCs as he carried them up to the entrance. in hindsight, that should have been a Sphinx.

[The God Learner]

A quick look at Wikipedia shows that there were androsphinxes and gynosphinxes in Egypt, who were temple guardians. Famous examples include the Great Sphinx and the Alabaster Sphinx. Also in the same hieratic roles were criosphinxes (ram headed) and hieracosphinxes (hawk headed).

In Greece, there was the gynosphinx Phix, who seems to have been something of a pest. After her riddle was answered, this winged creature in a fit of pique either threw itself off a cliff to its death, or ate itself. Either demise appears somewhat questionable to my eyes, but she did disappear thereafter. 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

The word sphinx literally means "strangler" in Greek, but we don't really know what the Egyptians called them, so that might no be a very important aspect. Point is, the Greeks seems to have seen them as monsters, whereas the Egyptian ones carried the faces of deceased Pharaos and so were almost certainly seen as protectors or at the very least boons of some kind. Perhaps allegorical for their vigilance and protection of the Two Kingdoms from beyond the grave.

The hieracosphinx is interesting in that it is visually identical to the concept of an "alce", that is to say, they both look like wingless griffins (leonine body, aquiline head). Some of the oldest portrayals of these also exist in the Minoan culture - another extremely old urban culture, which in Glorantha is closely tired to Esrolia in particular, and pre-Dawn Earth Cultures in general.

I'm interested in their relation to Anatolian "Sphinxes" as well, although I don't know much more about them than that they apparently exist in some artwork.

We also have the Mesopotamian lamassu and shedu, which similarly have a human head with an animal body. In this case, it's more famously a bull's body, but they have lion bodies as well. Again, they seem to be associated with protection, being featured on gates. These also sometimes have wings, which adds to the complexity of what they would signify within the Gloranthan elemental-mythic lattice. And of course Mesopotamia is closely associated with Dara Happa in Glorantha, aesthetically if nothing else.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, The God Learner said:

A quick look at Wikipedia shows that there were androsphinxes and gynosphinxes in Egypt, who were temple guardians. Famous examples include the Great Sphinx and the Alabaster Sphinx. Also in the same hieratic roles were criosphinxes (ram headed) and hieracosphinxes (hawk headed).

These appear to be just another variant of cherubim, not that different from the depicition of the two big ones in Solomon's Temple, probably catching up on the Kanaanite  version of such protectors.

7 hours ago, The God Learner said:

In Greece, there was the gynosphinx Phix, who seems to have been something of a pest. After her riddle was answered, this winged creature in a fit of pique either threw itself off a cliff to its death, or ate itself. Either demise appears somewhat questionable to my eyes, but she did disappear thereafter. 

Or she became better known as Rumplestiltskin in folk lore - the same unreasonable reaction to being found out. 

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

Or she became better known as Rumplestiltskin in folk lore - the same unreasonable reaction to being found out. 

This seems like the sort of thing a Disorder or Hunger spirit might do if it is defeated.

[Wrestlepig]

as a teller of Riddles, a Sphinx would ideally be related to Nysalor. I can just imagine travellers arguing about how there's other differences between righteous intent and righteous action aside from Power and that answer doesnt make any sense before they get eaten.

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Wrestlepig said:

as a teller of Riddles, a Sphinx would ideally be related to Nysalor.

There are plenty of riddle tellers besides Nysalor and may be as much associated with the Trickster.  Riddle telling is one form of gateway to something beyond with the riddle teller as the guardian of the secret.  The Riddling Raven of the Crossroads (from Arcane Lore) is one example.

[M Helsdon]

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:00 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

The word sphinx literally means "strangler" in Greek, but we don't really know what the Egyptians called them

Ssp Ankh - living image, has been suggested.

[Darius West]

On 11/24/2018 at 1:34 AM, jajagappa said:

There are plenty of riddle tellers besides Nysalor and may be as much associated with the Trickster.  Riddle telling is one form of gateway to something beyond with the riddle teller as the guardian of the secret.  The Riddling Raven of the Crossroads (from Arcane Lore) is one example.

I completely agree.  On the other hand, the issue of having Nysalor's riddles lurking in the background means that all riddles have become dangerously politicized in Glorantha.    If you meet a Riddler on the path, kill them.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I completely agree.  On the other hand, the issue of having Nysalor's riddles lurking in the background means that all riddles have become dangerously politicized in Glorantha. 

Politicized? A strange derogatory term in this context.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

If you meet a Riddler on the path, kill them.

And if you meet someone who met or killed a Riddler, kill them too - they might have become memetically infected. Afterwards, report for annihilation.

Seriously, this "kill on sight" attitude towards Illumination or other forms of Enlightenment doesn't feel right in polytheistic Glorantha. There are evils that have nothing to do with Illumination or Chaos, and there are beings tragically afflicted by Chaos or Illumination whose words or actions may serve (unintentionally) as Riddles.

 

When not blocking a path, devouring the witless who cannot solve the test, a sphinx may be an embodyment of teaching virtues of the entity they represent. At least that's what would make sphinxes of pharaohs somewhat sensible.

[jajagappa]

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

If you meet a Riddler on the path, kill them.

Unless they are protected by dark Arkati heroes stationed at that point of the path!  

[soltakss]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:08 AM, Darius West said:

If you meet a Riddler on the path, kill them.

Unless you are a Wind Lord who has challenged a Fire/Sky Priest to a Riddling Contest, you'd have to kill yourself, then your opponent.

Soltak StormSpear used to love asking Yelmalians Nysalor Riddles as part of the Orlanth-Yelmite Riddling Contest. 

[Darius West]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:03 AM, soltakss said:

Unless you are a Wind Lord who has challenged a Fire/Sky Priest to a Riddling Contest, you'd have to kill yourself, then your opponent.

Soltak StormSpear used to love asking Yelmalians Nysalor Riddles as part of the Orlanth-Yelmite Riddling Contest. 

Nonsense.  Orlanthi aren't bound to go through that riddle competition nonsense, but they can if they want.  You can ask a riddle with a clear conscience, but when the Yelmalio asks you something you can't answer, just call him a Gbaji Illuminate trying to pervert your mind and kill the bastard. Problem solved.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Darius West

[Nontraya]

Nobody made a note as far as I can see that some egyptian mythology make the sphinx(es) out to be a guardian of the entrance and exit of the Underworld which Ra has to traverse. Depending on the extent you think that egyptian mythology may be instructive, Rausa and Theya could appear as Sphinxes?

 

As a temple guardian it could be associated with the solar pantheon, and it would be a nice feature of Belintar's Holy Country. Could also be one of the "innovations" of the nysaloran Khordavu dynasty.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Nontraya said:

Nobody made a note as far as I can see that some egyptian mythology make the sphinx(es) out to be a guardian of the entrance and exit of the Underworld which Ra has to traverse. Depending on the extent you think that egyptian mythology may be instructive, Rausa and Theya could appear as Sphinxes?

The Lammasu representations of the Storm Brothers are a close equivalent to Sphinxes, sharing some of the ungulant body parts with the Hieracosphinx (as per Monster Manual) overcome by Oedipus. I doubt that lion imagery is very popular in Esrolia, although it might be appropriate for at least one of the gate keepers for the setting sun. The other should have a wolf physique, though, honoring the myth how Telmor ate the sun (and creating the bridge between Telmor and Humakt).

On the Theya side, the Phoenix might be the correct guardian (or at least one of the Guardians). But the Gates of Dawn appear to be as much of a one-direction portal as the Gates of Dusk, with guardians potentially on the Underworld side rather than the Surface side.

2 hours ago, Nontraya said:

As a temple guardian it could be associated with the solar pantheon, and it would be a nice feature of Belintar's Holy Country. Could also be one of the "innovations" of the nysaloran Khordavu dynasty.

Leonine imagery is common in Dara Happa, with two different aspects of the lion for eastern and western Peloria, and King Griffon as something like the predecessor sky ruler then relegated to the steed of the sun.

A predator on horses might be a popular choice of totemic / heraldic creature for the dynasty which broke the yoke of the horse emperors following the few noble ones.

[svensson]

There's not a lot in the way of non-Chaos 'chimeric' beasts  or beings in Glorantha... Pegesii, hippogriffs, and skybulls notwithstanding. And only two, centaurs and minotaurs, are sapient.

Given how much Greg was a student of Mesopotamia and Persian and Arabic myth, I think that's a little odd.

When he was fleshing out the ideas that became Glorantha, it's clear he had to address many of the standard tropes... elves, dwarves, pegasi, the standard array of creatures in Western mythology. It's equally clear that he absolutely didn't want to fall into the another re-skin of the Norse myths, the Greek /Roman myths, the Arthurian cycles, or 'Hobbit 2.0' in Glorantha. He had very specific quirks and tweaks that he wanted in his creation.

I don't know if the lack of lammasu, shedu and baku [beneficent chimera-type monsters in Near East myth] was on purpose or not. There's equally valid arguments for 'yes, include them' and 'no, they're not there for a reason'.

[svensson]

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

A predator on horses might be a popular choice of totemic / heraldic creature for the dynasty which broke the yoke of the horse emperors following the few noble ones.

Oh great, Now the Lunars have 'Billy Ruffian' too! 🤣

[I'm told that the 'Bellerophon on Pegasus' patch of the British 1st Airborne Division is nicknamed 'Billy Ruffian' by the troops]

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by svensson

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

There's not a lot in the way of non-Chaos 'chimeric' beasts  or beings in Glorantha... Pegesii, hippogriffs, and skybulls notwithstanding. And only two, centaurs and minotaurs, are sapient.

Griffins and Hippogriffs are sapient, to some extent Manticores are, too - at a lower level than minotaurs or gorillas, but not entirely animalistic.

You forgot to mention satyrs as the third sapient culture of Beast Valley, and the Fox Women and Swan Maidens from Chinese or Germanic myth are present, too.

 

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

Given how much Greg was a student of Mesopotamia and Persian and Arabic myth, I think that's a little odd.

When he was fleshing out the ideas that became Glorantha, it's clear he had to address many of the standard tropes... elves, dwarves, pegasi, the standard array of creatures in Western mythology. It's equally clear that he absolutely didn't want to fall into the another re-skin of the Norse myths, the Greek /Roman myths, the Arthurian cycles, or 'Hobbit 2.0' in Glorantha. He had very specific quirks and tweaks that he wanted in his creation.

The People of the Forest - dryads, Forest Kings and their daughters (marrying the demigods of the Serpent King dynasty) are present in his Dawn Age Seshnela writings, without any explicit elves. There aren't any uz, aldryami or mostali by that name, but instead there are elemental creatures like the Likiti of the Earth, Dehori of Darkness (which may or may not include uz following ZZ), a different name for the Stone people, etc., but no chimera creatures in Hrestol's Other Side journey to slay Ifttala. Another very short Dawn Age Seshnela fragment mentions a famous lion as quest object for an aspiring Man-of-All (still spelled "knight"), only to be snatched up by some more prestigious knight, leaving a mystery entity at a magical lake for the protagonist of that short fragment. Hybrids enter Seshnela only with the Luathan transformation of the inhabitants of Old Sesnela into beastfolk, or at least the parts that were not drowned.

Sky or Storm critters with extra wings are known, some pure animals like the Sky Bulls, others with above-bestial sapience. But there are also monkeys and apes with above-beast sapience - the Baboons of Prax, the Gorillas of Caladraland, the Orang Utans of Fethlon.

There are serpent women guardians at the Paps, and Rakshasa temple guardians associated with Babeester.

Anaxial's Roster had elephant-headed elephant seals and similar weirdnesses, and there are fish-tailed versions of horses and other land animals in the seas.

 

There are weird Green Age creatures, not restricted to Grotaron Maid Stone Archers or Pamaltelan Hoolars and Jelmre. The extinct Lascerdan civilization of Umathela is another example of weirdness.

 

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

I don't know if the lack of lammasu, shedu and baku [beneficent chimera-type monsters in Near East myth] was on purpose or not. There's equally valid arguments for 'yes, include them' and 'no, they're not there for a reason'.

There is a place for some of these beings in the Upper World, from which they could descend on occasion or in special places - similar to he hippogriffs of Pegasus Plateau. Or in the Outer World, too, again with special places and magical circumstances that could bring them into the Inner World. Some of @Crel's Monsters of the Month were of this type.

Other such creatures fall under the wider definition of "draconic" creatures, or sub-types of (lesser) dragons.

[EricW]

On 11/16/2018 at 7:23 PM, The God Learner said:

Without considering any prior work, I'd like to see sphinxes in the Wastelands and that they have some strong association with Genert's Garden. Some should be wounded by Chaos. Some might be mighty pre-Dawn remnants who still stalk the world. As a rule solitary. Illumination due to riddling optional. 

One surprise could be that they guard the last and secret remnant of the Garden (... achingly green, solemnly still, with a tomb). 

Could be even weirder, perhaps they guard the memory of Genert’s Garden, which can be visited. So pass the sphinx, and for a day you are surrounded by unimaginable natures bounty which you can pick and offer to friends, but you cannot see or defend yourself against chaos - which makes this a very dangerous way to obtain food.

[Darius West]

8 hours ago, EricW said:

Could be even weirder, perhaps they guard the memory of Genert’s Garden, which can be visited. So pass the sphinx, and for a day you are surrounded by unimaginable natures bounty which you can pick and offer to friends, but you cannot see or defend yourself against chaos - which makes this a very dangerous way to obtain food.

Now that could make for an interesting encounter.  Plenty of danger, plenty of unexpected wonder, plenty of reward, but it is in fresh water, fruit and grain, all precious in Prax and more-so in the Wastes, but not so big in monetary value and they don't travel well.  I like it!

Edited March 15, 2022 by Darius West