Steal Breath... et al

[Brootse]

RQG: The two other techniques, Command and Tap, are implied in all other techniques.

This text would imply that all Sorcery has something to do with Tapping. So either Tapping has changed from the evil thing it was in RQ3, or then the Theists are right to call Sorcerers immoral. But Lhankor Mhy doesn't forbid Tapping, only Chalana Arroy does. Or maybe the writers meant that only Tapping Man is forbidden to the Healers.

Would an Aeolian Tap Air? Is it an evil and unholy thing for them to drain Orlanth, or is filling yourself with the Power of Air similar in their minds to what the Storm Voices do?

Edited May 11, 2019 by Brootse

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, Brootse said:

nah

From the Bestiary:

Trolls can move in the darkest night, due to their stygian
origin. They use “Darksense,” a perception not available to
other races. Darksense combines hearing, smelling, feeling,
and some non-specific sensing abilities, and allows trolls to
maneuver as though humans in sunshine.

All of these are interactions with elemental Darkness, as far as I am concerned, registered as the equivalents of those senses. Now to get a dark troll into a magnetic resonance scanner to verify that...

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

So, what things might a sorcerer Tap around the Tula without mucking things up too bad for the community? Would there be ways he could use Tapping to help out around the community? Could something like Tap + Beast help manage or destroy an infestation? Could a spell like Tap + Stasis make it easier to Move Big Stuff around a village, I am thinking pushing logs uphill and such. 

The answere is pretty likely "there is no Tapping that doesn't muck things up too bad for the community." The Lady of the Wild is a force you don't want to anger, so just tapping nature won't be a solution. Tap the spirit world, and worse spirits are bound to appear. Tap the earth or some of her acceptable husbands... not a good idea.

Tapping the Red Moon should be somewhat safe, but might require that much Lunar insight that doing so may no longer be a good idea. Tapping Chaos... well, what's so bad about another, tentacly appendage anyway? Tapping Ice Demons (hollri) might be feasible without damaging any important relationship. The winter giants might object, but you could downsize those to more manageable opponents.

Tapping the Power runes sounds like an eminently bad idea to me. Stasis is also known as Stability, and unless you want to use those logs for fuel, this sounds counter-productive.

Tap Locusts... does that make them any less aggressively reproductive, or does that only shrink their size? In the second case, they need less than a week to return with the same collective body mass.

 

11 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Could my Lhankor Mhy Philosopher think up a spell to keep the damn wind from messing up all my papers and scrolls in the library AND Generate MP out of it to boot?

In order to make this feasible, there needs to be enough messing up in your study, and it needs to regenerate. But in the end, what you suggest here amounts to "Tap Apprentices" or "Tap fellow scholars". It isn't easy to get Lhankor Mhy's approval for this.

 

11 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would love to have a little better idea of the philosophy for putting together a new sorcery spell. Scaling a new Rune Spell isn't super difficult as there are a lot of examples of different affects, and the No God Can Have a Better Spell Than the God With the Rune is a great guideline, nothing straight up better than sunspear makes a whole lot of sense from any other Fire/Sky God.

My impression is that you can limit the excesses of sorcerous intensity by demanding four or more points of added intensity to reach the next step of effect, e.g. with Enhance INT. The narrower in scope a sorcery spell is, the less could be this interval. Open Seas doesn't require any manipulation at all.

 

11 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

So, I am not sure if I should necro the old additional spells thread, create a new thread, or field more questions about Sorcery and Tapping here. 

I think that a thread "balancing new sorcery spells" would be a good place to discuss these questions. This thread could focus on what qualities are destroyed through Tapping, and how loss of these qualities affects the sorcerer and his community.

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, David Scott said:

The elemental runes in Glorantha are not opposites.

Sorry, yeah. But... I had in my head the  Powers which have opposing Runes. And, since the Elements are placed in a pentagram, I also figured there was some sort of contrary relationship which may be similar... Thus, the reduction of one etc...

So, from the above discussions, we have some who say Tapping (Elements, and probably most other things) will bring Chaos into the world... and others who say "nah, go for it" (unless your cult happens to  be associated with that Rune (which is possibly why Lhankor Mhy might not Steal Breath/Tap Air).

 

Q: Do the Form and Power Runes have sub-runes as well? So, for example, is there a sub-Rune for Movement such that a PC could have a Tap Dance spell?

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Q: Do the Form and Power Runes have sub-runes as well?

They could do. 

The Elements certainly do. Darkness has Cold/Shadow, Earth has Dust, Fire-Sky has Light/Heat, not sure about Water, Air/Storm has Air/Storm, not sure about Moon.

Truth has Truth/Knowledge, Movement has Movement/Change, Fertility has Life and so on.

I am the result of a Tap Dance spell, as I cannot Dance at all.

[Pentallion]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

They could do. 

The Elements certainly do. Darkness has Cold/Shadow, Earth has Dust, Fire-Sky has Light/Heat, not sure about Water, Air/Storm has Air/Storm, not sure about Moon.

Truth has Truth/Knowledge, Movement has Movement/Change, Fertility has Life and so on.

I am the result of a Tap Dance spell, as I cannot Dance at all.

My mother was a great tap dancer.  Never occurred to me she was stealing someone else's dance skill.

I remember when I saw Wonder Woman in the theaters thinking if I were a Brithini, I'd tap that.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Pentallion said:

 

I remember when I saw Wonder Woman in the theaters thinking if I were a Brithini, I'd tap that.

And that's why Tapping is considered evil... especially without consent.

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Pentallion said:

My mother was a great tap dancer

Did she keep falling into the sink?

Edited May 12, 2019 by soltakss

[David Scott]

I think the big difference for Lhankor Mhy players would be the outlook generated by their occupation. A scribe IMO is unlikely to use tap. However a philosopher is likely to, given their world view will be different:

Quote

[phisosophers] seeking to understand the cosmos through abstract reasoning.

For me this would be an in-game issue as to what a Lhahkor Mhy philosopher would do. To me there is no hard and fast rules here. just play it out. Tap Air rune could be reasoned as Orlanth giving his magic points to use for example in saving the party. Would the Orlanthi in the party really believe that Air was being destroyed? 

[Shiningbrow]

23 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Did she keep falling into the sink?

If you're going to go there.....

 

Is there a sub-Rune of the Water Rune? So that I could Tap Drip? (And I don't even have to faucet )

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

If you're going to go there.....

 

Is there a sub-Rune of the Water Rune? So that I could Tap Drip? (And I don't even have to faucet )

There a a couple of three-way splits. When it comes to water with and without the special something, I think it is the triplet of Heler, Triolina and Nelat rather than their parent level of Daliath (intellect), Framanthe (soul) and Sramak (body).

There was some discussion on this topic here.

My suggestion for one subrune would be Rain (the Heler rune), and probably brine (rather than salt) for the Nelat opposite (no idea whether there has ever been a rune for that).

Ice is Heler defeated by Darkness.

Dripping water from the tap would be the Rain rune. Possibly it too comes in three sizes, like the Lowfires. In that case, the dripping tap would be the Mahome version.

As to dancing... that's how the entire tragic keet epic began (Revealed Mythology  p.81, but see also p.78ff)

[Brootse]

Checked what the Guide said about tapping:

Tapping
Tapping is the sorcerous conversion of a local manifestation of a Rune into raw magical energy, which then can be used by the sorcerer to power other spells. For example, a sorcerer learned in the Stasis Rune, might tap the Stasis out of a rock, reducing it to dust, or another might tap the Life out of a tree, killing the orchard to get magical power. Most Malkioni, except the Brithini, Vadeli, and Waertagi, consider Tapping to be immoral and evil. However, the principle is inherent in Malkioni philosophy and is easily derived from the logical techniques the Malkioni use to summon, command, or combine Runes.

Sample School of Sorcery: Debaldan School

The Debaldan School of Sorcery studies the Water Rune. Its spells include Summon Water (summon water elemental); Summon Progenitor of Water (uses present water elementals to summon an identified “ancestral water”); and Combine Water with [Power Rune]. Although Tapping is considered immoral and evil by most Malkioni, the Debaldan School does teach Tap Water (the spell is easily derived from the logical techniques used by the Malkioni in any case).

So I can't see an honourable Aeolian or Lhankor Mhy wizard tapping anything.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Brootse said:

So I can't see an honourable Aeolian or Lhankor Mhy wizard tapping anything.

For the most part, I would agree. But, I'd think that Chaos and Red Moon  might be an exception... especially the latter as it came about after the Great Compromise, and allowed Chaos back into the world. "Killing" off Orlanth certainly didn't help their cause either!

[PhilHibbs]

I feel that the rules should have made it clear, there's a possibility that someone will make a character built around Steal Breath and then find out after a few scenarios, when more information about sorcery is published, that it's anathema to everyone around them and that they are being hounded out of Sartar. That would be deeply unfair to the player who genuinely didn't know, because they didn't read the Rune Cults section from which it ought to be obvious that Orlanthi are not going to be big fans of Steal Breath.

[Brootse]

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

I feel that the rules should have made it clear, there's a possibility that someone will make a character built around Steal Breath and then find out after a few scenarios, when more information about sorcery is published, that it's anathema to everyone around them and that they are being hounded out of Sartar. That would be deeply unfair to the player who genuinely didn't know, because they didn't read the Rune Cults section from which it ought to be obvious that Orlanthi are not going to be big fans of Steal Breath.

Yeah, it doesn't say anywhere in the rulebook that Tapping is evil to most people. That could be added to the Sorcery section.

[Jeff]

Sorcery is presented in the context of Dragon Pass. None of the Tap spells are on the list of stuff commonly found in the Lhankor Mhy temples, who aren't even Malkioni. So let's imagine a player wants to create a LM Philosopher character and says, "I know Steal Breath isn't on that LM spell list, but I want to have it - as a philosopher I get three sorcery spells, and that's one." I'd say fine! There was a scroll containing Steal Breath hidden in the Jonstown Library and after much study you've figured out how it works. The spell didn't come with commentary - and you don't personally study Malkioni ethics.

So you have a spell. It asphyxiates your foes AND gives you magic points! Hurrah!

But then your High Priest hears about this, and wants to know what strange magic this is. He researches the spell and learns of its other name. Tap Air. He worries that this might be evil God Learner sorcery and the sort of thing that nearly destroyed the world. He doesn't forbid it but discourages it.

And then you meet a traveling Rokari wizard. He is appalled by your use of the evil Tap spell - you've proven yourself to be the stereotype of the amoral or evil Krjalki sorcerer. He demands that you give up the spell or even claims you are a God Learner. 

Meanwhile, the new patron of the Jonstown Library, Prince Argrath, summons you to Boldhome. He asks you to join a group called the Free Philosophers, but you get the feeling that you are not free to refuse him. He expects that you broadly teach this spell to your fellow philosophers....

 

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I feel that the rules should have made it clear, there's a possibility that someone will make a character built around Steal Breath and then find out after a few scenarios, when more information about sorcery is published, that it's anathema to everyone around them and that they are being hounded out of Sartar. That would be deeply unfair to the player who genuinely didn't know, because they didn't read the Rune Cults section from which it ought to be obvious that Orlanthi are not going to be big fans of Steal Breath.

This is not clear, even in the Rune Cults section.

 

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Sorcery is presented in the context of Dragon Pass. None of the Tap spells are on the list of stuff commonly found in the Lhankor Mhy temples, who aren't even Malkioni. So let's imagine a player wants to create a LM Philosopher character and says, "I know Steal Breath isn't on that LM spell list, but I want to have it - as a philosopher I get three sorcery spells, and that's one." I'd say fine! There was a scroll containing Steal Breath hidden in the Jonstown Library and after much study you've figured out how it works. The spell didn't come with commentary - and you don't personally study Malkioni ethics.

So you have a spell. It asphyxiates your foes AND gives you magic points! Hurrah!

But then your High Priest hears about this, and wants to know what strange magic this is. He researches the spell and learns of its other name. Tap Air. He worries that this might be evil God Learner sorcery and the sort of thing that nearly destroyed the world. He doesn't forbid it but discourages it.

And then you meet a traveling Rokari wizard. He is appalled by your use of the evil Tap spell - you've proven yourself to be the stereotype of the amoral or evil Krjalki sorcerer. He demands that you give up the spell or even claims you are a God Learner. 

Meanwhile, the new patron of the Jonstown Library, Prince Argrath, summons you to Boldhome. He asks you to join a group called the Free Philosophers, but you get the feeling that you are not free to refuse him. He expects that you broadly teach this spell to your fellow philosophers....

 

Those information should be in the rules, along with the list of cults that allow sorcery.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I feel that the rules should have made it clear...

3 minutes ago, Kloster said:

This is not clear, even in the Rune Cults section.

Yes, that's why I said that the rules should have made it clear.

[PhilHibbs]

I'm bringing this across from the other thread, because it's on topic here, and not there. Lets be nice and talk about tapping in a tapping thread, and immortality in the immortality spell thread.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Which sort of brings us full circle - is Tapping evil?

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

According to rules, NO.

You can't make an emphatic claim that the rules say that it is NOT evil. The rules don't say much about what is or is not evil.

[Kloster]

34 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't make an emphatic claim that the rules say that it is NOT evil. The rules don't say much about what is or is not evil.

The question (in the other thread) was about what the rulebook says. I just wanted to say that no, the rulebook does not say that tapping is evil: I agree with you, the rules don't say anything. I apologize  if my use of uppercase is bad form.

[Brootse]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Sorcery is presented in the context of Dragon Pass. None of the Tap spells are on the list of stuff commonly found in the Lhankor Mhy temples, who aren't even Malkioni. So let's imagine a player wants to create a LM Philosopher character and says, "I know Steal Breath isn't on that LM spell list, but I want to have it - as a philosopher I get three sorcery spells, and that's one." I'd say fine! There was a scroll containing Steal Breath hidden in the Jonstown Library and after much study you've figured out how it works. The spell didn't come with commentary - and you don't personally study Malkioni ethics.

So you have a spell. It asphyxiates your foes AND gives you magic points! Hurrah!

But then your High Priest hears about this, and wants to know what strange magic this is. He researches the spell and learns of its other name. Tap Air. He worries that this might be evil God Learner sorcery and the sort of thing that nearly destroyed the world. He doesn't forbid it but discourages it.

And then you meet a traveling Rokari wizard. He is appalled by your use of the evil Tap spell - you've proven yourself to be the stereotype of the amoral or evil Krjalki sorcerer. He demands that you give up the spell or even claims you are a God Learner. 

Meanwhile, the new patron of the Jonstown Library, Prince Argrath, summons you to Boldhome. He asks you to join a group called the Free Philosophers, but you get the feeling that you are not free to refuse him. He expects that you broadly teach this spell to your fellow philosophers....

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[gochie]

My opinion - not based on much since my experience with sorcery is rather limited - is that tapping creatures (characteristics) is seriously evil, and not tolerated by anyone other than the rare "evil" cultures (ie. necromancers, orcs, etc.) 

I honestly don't see anything wrong with tapping air, earth, fire, or whatever else isn't alive. Technically, starting a fire is tapping air and plant (wood) to create energy, no? 😏 

I also don't think it would be super obvious to an Orlanthi (or anyone who doesn't actually know the spell) that a sorcerer is tapping air in front of him in the first place. 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, gochie said:

My opinion - not based on much since my experience with sorcery is rather limited - is that tapping creatures (characteristics) is seriously evil, and not tolerated by anyone other than the rare "evil" cultures (ie. necromancers, orcs, etc.) 

What do you call a creature? Is a Wind a creature? Storm worshipers can interact with winds, allie them - sometimes we talk about the spirit (or the soul) of such a wind, sometimes we call such entities elementals. Are those winds creatures?

Same thing again with bodies of water or currents of water.

1 minute ago, gochie said:

I honestly don't see anything wrong with tapping air, earth, fire, or whatever else isn't alive.

An animist will tell you that all of that is quite evidently alive, often has an individuality, or else contribute to a hive individuality. Pasteur proved that water is very much alive unless you go to great lengths to remove that life from the water.

1 minute ago, gochie said:

Technically, starting a fire is tapping air and plant (wood) to create energy, no? 😏 

No. Technically, that is transforming the fire potential in the fuels to flame and leaving behind ashes. While it alters a portion of the universe, it doesn't destroy it.

Tapping does destroy those bits of the universe, or of Creation.

When Tapping first was practiced, Creation was an ongoing process, even a process that had gone out of control. In those conditions, Tapping was just pruning Creation so that it didn't become hostile to itself.

The birth of Time changed those rules. The process of Creation was limited severely, because the shards of the product of Creation hold together only by gossamer strands of the Web of Arachne Solara. It still is ongoing, but in a very limited way (usually), as removing the limiters threatens to rip even more shards of reality out of the Web.

There are ways to tap such ongoing Creation ethically - when you limit yourself to the surplus Creation while sheltering the process as a whole. Unfortunately the heady sensation of the magic building up inside the Tapper usually blows away any thoughts of limiting that effect. A master of restraint might be able to adjust the flow of his Tapping with the influx of raw Creation.

 

1 minute ago, gochie said:

I also don't think it would be super obvious to an Orlanthi (or anyone who doesn't actually know the spell) that a sorcerer is tapping air in front of him in the first place. 

IMO on the contrary. An Orlanthi permeates the air around him with his breath - his air sensations project quite a way outwards from him. While this isn't a reliable sense for perception activities, any destruction of intermingled breath will cause him pain and wounds.

[Shiningbrow]

"Evil" is obviously a perspective... wiping out all humans is evil if you're human. Wiping out all Chaos (or trolls, or or or) usually isn't. (lack of alignments and all).

So, as I've said before, I'd understand why an Orlanthi would be totally ok with a Tap Chaos, or Tap Moonbeam.... those things don't matter to them, and they themselves are evil.

Tap Spirit would be fine if you're doing it to disease spirits.

Tapping someone else's body would be fine - if they're an enemy. Tapping your friends and allies is bad form (however, I can envisage a situation in which someone willingly sacrifices themselves for a 'greater good'... ie, need MPs now to defeat this Thed Priest).

(What would happen with a Tap Undeath? Presuming any Rune can be used in such a way...)

 

I think in Glorantha, just like in our world, unless you're actually seeing any negative consequences, you normally don't consider them.

 

Also - side point (sort of). Are people going to see a significant difference between the mundane, physical manifestation of a Rune (eg, air) and the spiritual manifestation of the Rune (eg, Sylph/Umbroli)? If there is that difference, wouldn't the tapping of 'air' be seen as different to tapping the Sylph?

[soltakss]

On 5/13/2019 at 6:36 PM, PhilHibbs said:

On 5/13/2019 at 1:56 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I feel that the rules should have made it clear...

On 5/13/2019 at 6:32 PM, Kloster said:

This is not clear, even in the Rune Cults section.

Yes, that's why I said that the rules should have made it clear.

Is it clear?