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HreshtIronBorne

Clan Military Logistics - Wyter Magic

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Are Wyter's too strong? 

Minor Temple, Clan, or Regiment - Community Members 251–1,000     POW 6D6+6     CHA 4D6 

Assuming the High Priest of the Wyter is an Orlanthi Rune-Lord Clan Leader with a CHA Full of RP and knows all the spells sited, at the minimum. 

"That 42 Power Wyter could - on full moon days - cast a Shield 35 with Extension 5 on itself lasting 2 years (full moon doubles temporal spells).  Next holy day, having been brought back up to 42 from worshippers, it can cast Shield 30 with Extension 5 for 2 years upon 25 members of the community.  Next holy day, do it again or cast, idk, lets say Spirit Armor Enchantments.  30 points worth on 25 worshippers.  Next holy day, make 30 point magic matrix enchantments on 25 items.  Make 25 items each with 15 Mindblasts seems good.  Will that work?

It would seem so according to RAW. 

The math works out to this:  use 8 power to hit 40 worshippers.  Shield 27 with extension 5.  For lunars, that lasts 2 years and cost the wyter 40 Power. The guys getting the benefit from the wyter then sac 1 POW to the wyter each in exchange, bringing the wyter back up to 42 power.   In two years, you can imbue 200 worshippers with Shield 27. 

Why don't we see Lunar patrols and lunar army with Shield 27?  Why not everyone who has a wyter?

I don't see any limits on how much power can be sacced to the wyter other than species maximum.  The rules don't say the wyter can only gain power by marking it, they say the worshippers can give it.  So the 20 points David talks about make no sense to me.  That's paltry compared to a minor wyter's power or the power that it imbues its worshippers with.

I'm guessing these troublesome words need to disappear from the RAW?  and sometimes even points of characteristic POW (which could bring its POW up to a maximum of 42)." -Pentallion ( I have no idea how to quote into a new post)

Is there some missing link not being seen here?

Should a clan or temple, or a Tribe with a BUNCH of Temples be able to muster a couple dozen members of the community with what amounts to immunity to normal damage and all but the strongest magics?

 

 

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I know you're just trying to Min-Max, but it would be much smarter to lower the power of the Shield, and raise the number of people who can get it...

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Check the Rune Fixes entry on Extension. Basically says the rune points can’t be regained until the extended spell expires. 

Dont see why that doesn’t apply to wyters too. 

PS: Sorry about big shouty font. 

Edited by BassJon
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49 minutes ago, BassJon said:

Check the Rune Fixes entry on Extension. Basically says the rune points can’t be regained until the extended spell expires. 

Dont see why that doesn’t apply to wyters too. 

The minmax argument here is that wyters don't spend RP--the spend permanent points of POW, which doesn't come back anyway. However, if they have 500+ folks worshiping them, it shouldn't be too hard to find 20-50 willing to sac a point of POW each season to keep the wyter strong after it gives blessings. So technically the Rune Fix doesn't apply, since there aren't Rune points to be regained.

Something else I'm looking at, in the Bestiary on p.185-6 are Thunder Brothers, which can be summoned using a 4-point Summon Cult Spirit from Orlanth Thunderous. So maybe the answer to enemy wyters is to summon a huge cult spirit and chuck it at them. The wyter's 6D6+6 POW is the same as a Thunder Brother's.

Kaiju spirit fight anyone?

Also on the Shield thing, you really don't wanna go over Shield 6 or 7 on a given person, I think, because if you get crit--ignoring armor--you're limited to natural healing. Anything that gets through is going to ruin your season. At 6 or 7 it's possible for a high-POW healer to dump enough MP to get a heal through, while still giving you some serious defenses. At Shield 10+, if you get crit you're probably losing a limb permanently. (I don't think the wyter would be able to dismiss the Shield spell at a whim? but can't claim I'm certain.)

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56 minutes ago, Crel said:

Also on the Shield thing, you really don't wanna go over Shield 6 or 7 on a given person, I think, because if you get crit--ignoring armor--you're limited to natural healing. Anything that gets through is going to ruin your season. At 6 or 7 it's possible for a high-POW healer to dump enough MP to get a heal through, while still giving you some serious defenses. At Shield 10+, if you get crit you're probably losing a limb permanently. (I don't think the wyter would be able to dismiss the Shield spell at a whim? but can't claim I'm certain.)

Very true point. However, it is still sick. Your followers are running around with 10-12 points of armor naked, and then don their normal gear. A Rune Lord might get what, another 10-11 points from their iron armor, then cast a prot 4-6 for 24-29 ap. At that point they are nigh invulnerable. 

I suppose that's when you grapple them or toss an earth elemental to swallow them or something similar. Still, it's sick.

It also means the trope of PCs attacking an enemy temple are just not possible with these rules, not without an army. 

Edited by Tywyll
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6 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

It also means the trope of PCs attacking an enemy temple are just not possible with these rules, not without an army. 

Or opposed min-maxing :P

"We have an army!"

"We have a Rules Lawyer!"

Or founding a wyter of their own, or summoning a big ol' feck-off spirit, etc. ... But yeah, rules as written it seems the best way to handle a wyter'd-up Rune Lord's retinue is with another wyter'd-up Rune Lord and retinue. Spirit Combat's still a weakness of that superarmored RL at least. And I figure in the actual setting most temple wyters won't have piles and piles of POW because they're using it here and there throughout the season for mundane stuff, or a disease outbreak, or whatever. So storming a rival clan's temple might still be possible.

Just don't mess with a military wyter & co, because they'll definitely have the power to knock you down a peg. That temple of Barntar? Eh, maybe scary, but not nearly as bad as the Humakti warband.

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2 hours ago, Crel said:

... in the actual setting most temple wyters won't have piles and piles of POW because they're using it here and there throughout the season for mundane stuff, or a disease outbreak, or whatever. So storming a rival clan's temple might still be possible

especially if you run it as a campaign in which you gradually wear down the opposing wyter. I can see a great deal of game fun there as the PCs develop interesting attrition tactics that don't implicate them enough to bring immediate retribution (though that might be fun too).

 

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If a Wyter can use all of the spells that the High Priest knows, if that priest is an actual Priest of a Cult then would the Wyter be able to use his knowledge of enchantment spells using RAW?

 

I am a power gamer at heart, it is true, I am also interested in finding out how all of the new moving parts of RQ:G are intended to work together and scale to represent the Hero Wars. Mostly, I just wanna know if what I am seeing the rules do is the vision that is intended for representing what happens in Glorantha. I personally think throwing around big-ass spells is hella fun and actually having rules for where PCs and Communities derive Greater Powers than were ever in the actual rules for older RQs, as far as I can tell.

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1 minute ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

If a Wyter can use all of the spells that the High Priest knows, if that priest is an actual Priest of a Cult then would the Wyter be able to use his knowledge of enchantment spells using RAW?

I think so, but does it matter? If the temple wanted to create a big enchantment, the POW all comes from the same place in the end. They could get the wyter to contribute a big chunk, or get a bunch of worshippers to give it directly.

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31 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think so, but does it matter? If the temple wanted to create a big enchantment, the POW all comes from the same place in the end. They could get the wyter to contribute a big chunk, or get a bunch of worshippers to give it directly.

I think the wyter can enchant multiple objects for the addition of just an extra POW per 5 items? Maybe not?  If so, that's a big advantage over group enchantings.  Wyters become exponentially more powerful.  But I'm not really sure if it works that way per RAW.  The rules say a wyter can be directed to cast its spells on members of the community.  But if it CAN cast Matrix Enchantment, then it's not casting it upon a member, it's casting it upon an item.  Does that mean it can cast matrix enchantment on 5 members belt buckles for one additional power. 

It would at least explain all the belt buckle magic items out there in the publications ;)

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7 hours ago, Crel said:

 Spirit Combat's still a weakness of that superarmored RL at least.

yeah, but then next holy day they add on a spirit block 27 and there goes THAT argument....

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40 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I am a power gamer at heart, it is true, I am also interested in finding out how all of the new moving parts of RQ:G are intended to work together and scale to represent the Hero Wars.

Yes, good fun, but I do think it can be taken too far. Like Soltakss's story about the halberd-wielding pixies (high DEX compensates for low STR), just because it's possible in RuneQuest doesn't mean that it should happen in Glorantha!

Just now, Pentallion said:

Does that mean it can cast matrix enchantment on 5 members belt buckles for one additional power. 

It would at least explain all the belt buckle magic items out there in the publications ;)

Ah, I'd forgotten about that rule! Er, no I don't think it can photocopy magic items for 1 POW. That's God Learner stuff right there.

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Just now, PhilHibbs said:

 

Ah, I'd forgotten about that rule! Er, no I don't think it can photocopy magic items for 1 POW. That's God Learner stuff right there.

So if Godlearners did it, then so can the Lunars.  So can Meriaten.  So can Argrath.  So it's a thing.

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4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, good fun, but I do think it can be taken too far. Like Soltakss's story about the halberd-wielding pixies (high DEX compensates for low STR), just because it's possible in RuneQuest doesn't mean that it should happen in Glorantha!

 

If it shouldn't happen in Glorantha, it shouldn't be in a rulebook for a simulationist rpg.  RQG either simulates Glorantha or it doesn't.  One of the things I always loved about RQ3 was how well it simulated Glorantha.  It had flaws too, but I can't honestly say RQG has addressed those flaws, it seems I'm always finding new flaws.  Like, yes, the rules allow it, but we should ignore those rules because...Glorantha.

That's kinda describing failed rules IMO.  But again, I don't know, because I am not sure if one line in a text box that is never mentioned anywhere in the rules otherwise is actually a rule or just a mistake that made its way through unnoticed.  Maybe you can't sac power to your wyter.  In which case, all of these abuses go away.

Edited by Pentallion
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Just now, Pentallion said:

So if Godlearners did it, then so can the Lunars.  So can Meriaten.  So can Argrath.  So it's a thing.

We know that the God Learners could mass-produce magic items on the cheap, but I don't think they used a wyter-hack. I think that was from zerging Heroquests.

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15 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Are Wyter's too strong? 

Minor Temple, Clan, or Regiment - Community Members 251–1,000     POW 6D6+6     CHA 4D6 

Assuming the High Priest of the Wyter is an Orlanthi Rune-Lord Clan Leader with a CHA Full of RP and knows all the spells sited, at the minimum. 

"That 42 Power Wyter could - on full moon days - cast a Shield 35 with Extension 5 on itself lasting 2 years (full moon doubles temporal spells).  Next holy day, having been brought back up to 42 from worshippers, it can cast Shield 30 with Extension 5 for 2 years upon 25 members of the community.  Next holy day, do it again or cast, idk, lets say Spirit Armor Enchantments.  30 points worth on 25 worshippers.  Next holy day, make 30 point magic matrix enchantments on 25 items.  Make 25 items each with 15 Mindblasts seems good.  Will that work?

It would seem so according to RAW. 

The math works out to this:  use 8 power to hit 40 worshippers.  Shield 27 with extension 5.  For lunars, that lasts 2 years and cost the wyter 40 Power. The guys getting the benefit from the wyter then sac 1 POW to the wyter each in exchange, bringing the wyter back up to 42 power.   In two years, you can imbue 200 worshippers with Shield 27. 

Why don't we see Lunar patrols and lunar army with Shield 27?  Why not everyone who has a wyter?

I don't see any limits on how much power can be sacced to the wyter other than species maximum.  The rules don't say the wyter can only gain power by marking it, they say the worshippers can give it.  So the 20 points David talks about make no sense to me.  That's paltry compared to a minor wyter's power or the power that it imbues its worshippers with.

I'm guessing these troublesome words need to disappear from the RAW?  and sometimes even points of characteristic POW (which could bring its POW up to a maximum of 42)." -Pentallion ( I have no idea how to quote into a new post)

Is there some missing link not being seen here?

Should a clan or temple, or a Tribe with a BUNCH of Temples be able to muster a couple dozen members of the community with what amounts to immunity to normal damage and all but the strongest magics?

 

 

So you have a maximum POW wyter for your example, rather than the normal 27 POW, CHA 14. This is obviously SUPER-clan, whose wyter is some god.

Your wyter has 42 points of POW. In theory, it could blow 41 points of POW to cast Rune spells, but that is stupid unless this is a murder-hobo wyter. That wyter's POW has all sorts of other functions, like being the spiritual force of the community, keeping hostile spirits out of the clan sacred lands, etc. Reducing the POW of the community spirit weakens your community - this should go without saying (and not something that should need clockwork mechanical things). Why are the other clan members going to give up their POW - their SOUL - just so that our rules-lawyer chieftain can feel super-swell?

Heck, reduce your wyter to POW 1, and maybe just it gets captured by a hostile shaman. Maybe some weak hate ghost with POW 15 decides to take its vengeance. Maybe a ritual enemy that normally is obeisance now can manifest. 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

So you have a maximum POW wyter for your example, rather than the normal 27 POW, CHA 14. This is obviously SUPER-clan, whose wyter is some god.

Your wyter has 42 points of POW. In theory, it could blow 41 points of POW to cast Rune spells, but that is stupid unless this is a murder-hobo wyter. That wyter's POW has all sorts of other functions, like being the spiritual force of the community, keeping hostile spirits out of the clan sacred lands, etc. Reducing the POW of the community spirit weakens your community - this should go without saying (and not something that should need clockwork mechanical things). Why are the other clan members going to give up their POW - their SOUL - just so that our rules-lawyer chieftain can feel super-swell?

Heck, reduce your wyter to POW 1, and maybe just it gets captured by a hostile shaman. Maybe some weak hate ghost with POW 15 decides to take its vengeance. Maybe a ritual enemy that normally is obeisance now can manifest. 

I mean the more I think about this, the more I would absolutely ruin a chief or high priest who tried to do this. "You broke our ancestral god - OUR ANCESTRAL GOD! - to do what? Our clan is dying, we have kin slaughter and more than half the community left to form a new clan, so that you be invulnerable? We have summoned the assembly and have decided to strip you from that office so that we might survive."

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3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 Why are the other clan members going to give up their POW - their SOUL - just so that our rules-lawyer chieftain can feel super-swell?

 

 

 

 

Because if 40 Humakti worshippers each sacrifice a point of power they gain Shield 27 for a year?  Not just the rules-lawyer chieftain, ALL of them.  The wyter goes right back to 42.  and next season, those same Humakti get Trueswords for a year.  Those ain't getting knocked down when you've got 54 countermagic up.  And that's just Humakt.  Why wouldn't 40 Orlanthi all have permanent Flight for only 1 power per year?

And the fact the rules state you can sac power to your wyter means everyones wyter will always be at max power because those benefitting from its powers stand to gain from saccing power to it.

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the clan would be uber powerful, not uber weak.  Because you included one little rule that says the clan can sac power to their wyter.  And then you made it totally worthwhile for them to do so.

Edited by Pentallion
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...which is why I would not allow a wyter to use POW to cast Extension. It breaks the POW/RP economy. Congratulations, you found an obscure and easily fixable exploit.

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1 minute ago, Pentallion said:

Because if 40 Humakti worshippers each sacrifice a point of power they gain Shield 27 for a year?  Not just the rules-lawyer chieftain, ALL of them.  The wyter goes right back to 42.  and next season, those same Humakti get Trueswords for a year.  Those ain't getting knocked down when you've got 54 countermagic up.  And that's just Humakt.  Why wouldn't 40 Orlanthi all have permanent Flight for only 1 power per year?

And the fact the rules state you can sac power to your wyter means everyones wyter will always be at max power because those benefitting from its powers stand to gain from saccing power to it.

Knock 40 POW off that wyter and that wyter is going to be terribly magically powerful until some big ceremony could be held to replenish its POW. If I was the GM, I'd probably say that needs to happen during Sacred Time or the high holy day of the wyter. This isn't the sort of event that should be done casually. 

In the meantime, that wyter is spiritually weak. Who cares if you have 40 nigh-invulnerable warriors for a year, if your wyter is gone. The cosmos tends to react strongly against rules-lawyers who abuse the spirit of the rules.

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2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

...which is why I would not allow a wyter to use POW to cast Extension. It breaks the POW/RP economy. Congratulations, you found an obscure and easily fixable exploit.

I like your solution, thanks.

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