Clan Military Logistics - Wyter Magic

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It makes sense to me, since we know that Extension requires a Rune Point pool dedicated to maintaining it. Without the RP backing up the spell, which are moderated by a CHA stat, which maintains a connection between the middle world and the god world, it drops.

I don't think we "know" this. We know this for normal mortal beings, but since wyter magic is based purely off the immediate expenditure of POW to cast spells (that the Priest/contact has access to), and the Wyter doesn't have CHA-limited casting, then we can't know anything for sure other than that. In fact, the only reference to CHA at all for the Wyter is it's % to successfully cast (at CHAx5%). We similarly don't know whether a Wyter can use the enchantment spells/rituals...

Also, p286 specifically states the Wyter can cast any spell known by its priest (although, I'd houserule that only those spells available from the temple deity are included... those tricksy little PCs would have all the gods' spells available, otherwise!)

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't think we "know" this.

Ok, it's an assumption. But I'd rather make a reasonable assumption that backs up the mechanics presented than an unreasonable one that contradicts them.

[Joerg]

I wonder what the Wyter POW for Runepower economy is. Effectively, initiates of the Wyter sacrifice for a one-use spell that the wyter will cast on behalf of the community, with a vast multispell advantage by allowing five more people affected for a single point of POW (presumably per point of the rune spell, or this gets into extreme munchkin territory).

How often will initiates (e.g. members of a regiment) be called to be drained for such a sacrifice? Is it a quid pro quo deal (with the multispell effect giving the wyter some way to build up reserves)? Are the initiation points to the wyter available as "rune power"?

Given the usefulness of wyters, are there communities with layered wyters (for subgroups and overgroups)?

Take your average Joe or Jane Orlanthi. He or she can be initiated  to the clan wyter, the cult's temple wyter, the tribal wyter, the city confederation's wyter, possibly the warband's or hero band's wyters. Especially tribal wyters will gain huge amounts of initiation POW when a clan joins, or when a clan presents the new adults to the tribal wyter.

What is the time commitment for a wyter worship service? Does a wyter have holy days? If so, how often?

[PhilHibbs]

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder what the Wyter POW for Runepower economy is. Effectively, initiates of the Wyter sacrifice for a one-use spell that the wyter will cast on behalf of the community, with a vast multispell advantage by allowing five more people affected for a single point of POW (presumably per point of the rune spell, or this gets into extreme munchkin territory).

If it were one point per point per person, there would be no "point" in the rule other than to reduce dice rolls. It clearly is per spell, not per point of spell. You could call that munchkinnery if you want, and some have taken that particular ballenlo and attempted to run with it! You're the traditional referee, go kick them! (For those not in-the-know, Joerg is really tall and often officiates at convention live-action Trollball games as the referee, see if you can spot him)

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How often will initiates (e.g. members of a regiment) be called to be drained for such a sacrifice? Is it a quid pro quo deal (with the multispell effect giving the wyter some way to build up reserves)? Are the initiation points to the wyter available as "rune power"?

I think that this will mostly be reactive rather than proactive - the wyter has to spend some POW in an emergency to fight off some threat, so the community leader exhorts the people to worship extra hard to restore it.

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Given the usefulness of wyters, are there communities with layered wyters (for subgroups and overgroups)?

Clans have them, and tribes have them, so in that sense yes. We know that regiments, war bands, and SMU units have them, I think families have them as well.

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What is the time commitment for a wyter worship service? Does a wyter have holy days? If so, how often?

I think the rulebook says once per season, Jeff said once per year earlier in this thread but he may have meant for a really big worship to replenish 40 spent POW.

Edited May 22, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If it were one point per point per person, there would be no "point" in the rule other than to reduce dice rolls. It clearly is per spell, not per point of spell. You could call that munchkinnery if you want, and some have taken that particular ballenlo and attempted to run with it!

Au contraire. For one extra POW (a total of 2), a 1 point spell gets to affect up to 6 people, another point of POW will up that to 11, etc. - a massive saving already. If we go back to talking 6 points of Shield, the question is whether you pay 8 or 18 points for 66 points of shield. 18 is a bargain, 8 is over the top.

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think that this will mostly be reactive rather than proactive - the wyter has to spend some POW in an emergency to fight off some threat, so the community leader exhorts the people to worship extra hard to restore it.

King of Dragon Pass had "sacrifices before battle" which sounds to me like a worship service to top off the wyter's MP, and possibly invoke a blessing, then redeem it.

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Clans have them, and tribes have them, so in that sense yes. We know that regiments, war bands, and SMU units have them, I think families have them as well.

That's a whole lot of POW traded, and some extra time spent in worship.

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the rulebook says once per season, Jeff said once per year earlier in this thread but he may have meant for a really big worship to replenish 40 spent POW.

If you have enough wyters, that's still a heck of holy day worship services (aka POW gain rolls) even at once per year. POW that might be obligatory to gift to the wyter.

[Pentallion]

On 5/20/2019 at 7:56 PM, EpicureanDM said:

I'm with you and @HreshtIronBorne on this one, @Pentallion. You're exploring the rules given to you by the designers. If the rules about wyters had been playtested more rigorously, we might have seen some limits published in the RAW. I think you found a very interesting set of ideas and rules around wyters and clan war. Some reasonable limits have been proposed to tone down the pure power-plays, leaving some powerful new options for RQG play. I've taken some notes for use in my own game.

I find this thread interesting for addressing the stunt monsters in the Bestiary like the Crimson Bat or Cwim. I understand that they're designed using a "LOL, this is funny" principle and I couldn't see a way for RQG characters to ever challenge them (using the rules we currently have). But now we've got this "burn down your wyter" idea to think about. Can it be theorycrafted? Maybe. I'm probably not the one to try. But it expands the horizons of what's possible. And before the grognards start declaiming about AD&D/Deities and Demigods/"If it has stats, we can kill it," I know. I know. I've been around a long time. I read about it in the letters section of Dragon. 

The Crimson Bat is a piece of cake.  See my old post "So easy, even a Balazaring could do it." from a few years back.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

The Crimson Bat is a piece of cake.  See my old post "So easy, even a Balazaring could do it." from a few years back.

I wonder what makes you think that that lazy flapping with the wings is what keeps the Bat aloft? I would say that it uses levitation, and that the flapping only allows for locomotion while levitated.

 

[Tywyll]

On 5/20/2019 at 7:35 PM, Jeff said:

Knock 40 POW off that wyter and that wyter is going to be terribly magically powerful until some big ceremony could be held to replenish its POW. If I was the GM, I'd probably say that needs to happen during Sacred Time or the high holy day of the wyter. This isn't the sort of event that should be done casually. 

That would be great, if the rules say that somewhere. Otherwise it's open to interpretation. 

Edit: Okay, I saw the new piece that was written.

Also, how does the POW of the Wyter weaken or strengthen the community? What are the exact pros and cons here? Right now, none that I can see. Protecting from invading spirits, yes, but otherwise?

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Tywyll

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

how does the POW of the Wyter weaken or strengthen the community? What are the exact pros and cons here? Right now, none that I can see. Protecting from invading spirits, yes, but otherwise?0

The Wyter is something like a sensation of common sense, and that may be expressed more strongly  by somthing that is a huge magical beacon rather than a quite wilted plant.

One might simulate that by capping the effective (resonating, not hate) passion rating to that community by the Wyter POWx5.

[PhilHibbs]

On 5/22/2019 at 2:05 PM, Joerg said:

If you have enough wyters, that's still a heck of holy day worship services (aka POW gain rolls) even at once per year. POW that might be obligatory to gift to the wyter.

It had never occurred to me that you might gain POW at a wyter's holy day worship ceremony (I know, I'm terrible at being a munchkin). I think it's likely to be on the same holy day as the clan or tribe's main deity, so nothing extra in terms of POW gains.

Edited May 23, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[soltakss]

On 5/20/2019 at 7:03 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, good fun, but I do think it can be taken too far. Like Soltakss's story about the halberd-wielding pixies (high DEX compensates for low STR), just because it's possible in RuneQuest doesn't mean that it should happen in Glorantha!

Yes, but, but, but, it happened in Glorantha!🙂

[Bill the barbarian]

20 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Also, how does the POW of the Wyter weaken or strengthen the community? What are the exact pros and cons here? Right now, none that I can see. Protecting from invading spirits, yes, but otherwise?

 

Fair point all, I infer that Tywyll and many of us who come to Glorantha from RQ are very new to Wyters. Could some of you great old ones in the know expound a little on why the wyter matters as much as Jeff and the rules are saying. (oh shit what have I done asking these bums a question like that, isn't that like Liam Neeson crying, "Release the Kraken!")

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yes, but, but, but, it happened in Glorantha!🙂

ahh, sotakss I share yer pain!

Edited May 24, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
great old ones

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Fair point all, I infer that Tywyll and many of us who come to Glorantha from RQ are very new to Wyters. Could some of you great old ones in the know expound a little on why the wyter matters as much as Jeff and the rules are saying. (oh shit what have I done asking these bums a question like that, isn't that like Liam Neeson crying, "Release the Kraken!")

I concur. On all points.

[Joerg]

The text about wyters in RQG gives a very high information for word count ratio. Possibly more than can be easily digested.

 

Basically, wyters are the way to magically establish a community that has magical consequences. The wyter is the manifestation of the community, and the community reflects the state of the wyter.

My original idea of a wyter was a collective spiritual entity that formed from the group's magical unity, without a the need for a pre-existing entity to take on that role. Sure, the Protectresses are manifestations of Eiritha, but they are the collective soul power of the entirety of the bison (or impala or herd man) population of the Wastes that can manifest when herds are in danger.

But then, wyters have been given quite a bit of individuality, which makes them pleasantly different from the ancestral notions of conformity for continuity.

City gods often are wyters, with the founding father acting as the wyter. This has an obvious conclusion - the wyter entity can migrate from the original spirit to the founding father when the founding father has left the world of the living. The wyterhood gets transferred, and the former spirit may become a helper spirit of the founder. Fairly obviously, the Jonstown tribal confederation created a wyter when the city confederation was formed. Quite likely Hauberk Jon quested for it himself, possibly analogous to the westfaring (which is where Ginna Jar manifested - nowadays I think that Ginna Jar was the roving, not-sleeping soul of Ernalda).

 

I am not clear on how specific wyters are for Orlanthi culture, or whether the Dara Happan city gods are a kind of wyter, too. Dara Happan regimental gods and regimental regalia appear to be related, with the wyter being the standard or whatever.

 

 

As you asked for the grognard experience, let’s have a look at the publication history.

King of Sartar was the first publication to mention the wyter, clarifying that we knew about it in the shape of Ginna Jar already.

KoS (hardcover) p.218

“Tribal Spirit

A tribe always has a protective spiritual entity. It is a collective entity or group spirit of the type called wyter. The tribal wyter is analogous to the ancestral clan spirit. It is a literal esprit de corps.

Like all spiritual entities, the health, magnificence, and power of the tribal spirit varies with the number of individuals devoted to it.

A similar type of entity is named Ginna Jar in the Lightbringers’ Quest. This name is a term of unknown derivation and impossible translation, but is apparently the Lightbringer Wyter.”

 

The book was published in the early 1990ies, at a time when there were no new rules products, so the concept never got interated into RQ3.

In all fairness, the RQ4-AiG playtest draft did mention them as a special case of cult spirits.

In the early days of the digests we quickly identified the spirits of the magician units and the protectresses in Nomad Gods as some manifestations of collective spirits.

Thunder Rebels created the definitive write-up about wyters, although not for RuneQuest. As far as I know, everythingsaid about (Orlanthi) wyters there still applies (though the absolute values for wyter strength are no longer used in HQ2).

Sartar-Kingdom of Heroes picks up much of that text, and specifically expands on how a wyter may be used on a heroquest. Perhaps because of this coverage, the wyter only gets mention on two pages in the HeroQuest Glorantha rules. (13^th Age Glorantha doesn’t mention wyters.)

Arcane Lore has a couple of texts dealing with the evolution of the wyter mechanisms. I’m pretty certain that some of that stuff was experimental only, but it is another source for how this came to be.

The Glorantha Sourcebook focuses on the military use of wyters in the Sartar Magical Union.

RQG picks up much of that. As I said, reading the text once won’t give you much insight.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The text about wyters in RQG gives a very high information for word count ratio. Possibly more than can be easily digested.

 

Basically, wyters are the way to magically establish a community that has magical consequences. The wyter is the manifestation of the community, and the community reflects the state of the wyter.

Snip

Wow, exactly what I was asking for! Joerg screams out above the crash of storm...

The Kraken Has Been Released!

[davecake]

I think that guidelines to how wyter normally operate is very useful. My only comment is that ‘war wyters’ such as She That Strikes From Afar (from the bestiary) or Thunder Bird (or any of the unity wyters described in the Glorantha Sourcebook) are going to function quite differently, as combat and warfare is part of their purpose, and expenditure of Power in battle is going to be a more strategic choice. I’d really like to see this fleshed out more, with more detailed rules and guidelines, in a future book on the assumption that PCs (most obviously those running 11 Lights in RQG, but there will be more) may end up core members of such wyter wielding magical groups. It is very clear that use of such strategic level magic is largely about wyters in Glorantha, and RQG should allow players to eventually command such powers. 

For example, expending a large proportion of the wyters POW on an epic magical feat is something that certainly any community is going to be reluctant to do in normal life. But in the midst of a massive magical battle, such as the Four Arrows of Light, or when your group needs to do something incredible to avoid being eaten by the Bat? These are the sort of situations where PCs will hopefully find themselves in if your game is sufficiently epic - it would be good to have more concrete guidelines about how to handle it. 

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by davecake

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

For example, expending a large proportion of the wyters POW on an epic magical feat is something that certainly any community is going to be reluctant to do in normal life. But in the midst of a massive magical battle, such as the Four Arrows of Light, or when your group needs to do something incredible to avoid being eaten by the Bat? These are the sort of situations where PCs will hopefully find themselves in if your game is sufficiently epic - it would be good to have more concrete guidelines about how to handle it. 

I agree, plenty of military units have been sent on suicide missions, or missions where there is a very high chance that no-one is coming back. In such circumstances, the wyter is not going to be excluded and will be prepared to "burn out" in order to succeed at the mission. Still, blowing POW on year-long extensions isn't going to be an effective strategy in that fairly niche situation.

On the other hand, even if everyone dies, the destruction of the wyter might not be desirable. I see the wyter having a role in the afterlife of the unit, and the continued honouring and veneration of those who gave their lives. The wyter would often be bound into a statue or shrine dedicated to the memory of the war band after its destruction or disbanding, so you'd want something of it to survive. That's just based on my speculation though.

Edited May 26, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I agree, plenty of military units have been sent on suicide missions, or missions where there is a very high chance that no-one is coming back. In such circumstances, the wyter is not going to be excluded and will be prepared to "burn out" in order to succeed at the mission.

Not necessarily. An alternative would be that the wyter object is destroyed, and that survivors who failed to participate in the mission can re-summon it and build up the regiment again.

The Lunar "vexillum" alternative wyters offer another solution to this.

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On the other hand, even if everyone dies, the destruction of the wyter might not be desirable. I see the wyter having a role in the afterlife of the unit, and the continued honouring and veneration of those who gave their lives. The wyter would often be bound into a statue or shrine dedicated to the memory of the war band after its destruction or disbanding, so you'd want something of it to survive. That's just based on my speculation though.

Yes. But then, just because the wyter is destroyed doesn't mean that the pre-existing entity who took on the duty of the wyter is destroyed in the afterlife. Still, my proposal of destroying the wyter object to allow a recovery of the wyter by absent friends sounds like a reasonable way to deal with this.

BTW, this is not my idea, it is the concept behind David Gemmell's Order of the Thirty in the Drenai series, a group of suicidal warrior mystics quite similar to a magical regiment of the Sartar Magical Union or the Imperial College of Magic.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Joerg

[Bill the barbarian]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

On the other hand, even if everyone dies, the destruction of the wyter might not be desirable. I see the wyter having a role in the afterlife of the unit, and the continued honouring and veneration of those who gave their lives. The wyter would often be bound into a statue or shrine dedicated to the memory of the war band after its destruction or disbanding, so you'd want something of it to survive. That's just based on my speculation though.

or it could survive as a war trophy if it could be taken and become like a roman standard of recent novel and movie note; a quest object for future parties to seek/rescue/revenge/destroy?

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not necessarily. An alternative would be that the wyter object is destroyed, and that survivors who failed to participate in the mission can re-summon it and build up the regiment again.

 

that's a nice one as well.

[Shiningbrow]

Can a Wyter DI?

[Kloster]

8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Can a Wyter DI?

As far as I have understand, wyters are not initiate (or better), so can't DI.

[davecake]

12 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As far as I have understand, wyters are not initiate (or better), so can't DI.

Some Wyters have Rune Points, which function normally, which suggests they are at least initiates. But a wyter using DI sounds like one of those 'the DM rolling dice against themselves' situations where you'd be better off improvising using known story ideas, like known Wyter abilities. 

[soltakss]

16 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As far as I have understand, wyters are not initiate (or better), so can't DI.

Wyters of Temples are initiates, as they are Temple Guardians. I always give the rune Lord DI.

Wyters of Clans, Herobands and Sacred Societies tend not to be Initiates, so probably cannot DI, but some could be, depending on the situation.

The wyter of a Troll Clan might be an aspect of the clan founder, for example, so the Saxdorf Clan was founded by Grandmother Sazdorf and their wyter could be an aspect of Grandmother Saxdorf, or perhaps a daughter of Grandmother Sazdorf, in which case it would have DI (unless you play that Ancestor Worshippers don't get DI).

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, davecake said:

But a wyter using DI sounds like one of those 'the DM rolling dice against themselves' situations...

Unless the PC is the Wyter's Priest... in which it could just be commanded to DI - if necessary.

[Kloster]

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Wyters of Temples are initiates, as they are Temple Guardians.

I've forgotten those. Thanks.

59 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Wyters of Clans, Herobands and Sacred Societies tend not to be Initiates, so probably cannot DI, but some could be, depending on the situation.

I only thought about those.

57 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The wyter of a Troll Clan might be an aspect of the clan founder, for example, so the Saxdorf Clan was founded by Grandmother Sazdorf and their wyter could be an aspect of Grandmother Saxdorf, or perhaps a daughter of Grandmother Sazdorf, in which case it would have DI (unless you play that Ancestor Worshippers don't get DI). 

I don't see Ancestor worship giving access to DI. Perhaps have I deviated from rules, but this is my perception.