David Scott

Yes, I’m aware latten is a loose term applied to both brass (copper and zinc) and bronze ( copper and tin), it comes down to copper and more Tin or zinc as to what you call it. Although in Glorantha I’m not sure there are such purity issues and zinc and brass (equivalents) do exist.

I'd have a look at Pendrgon's Book of Battle for this: This bloke does quite a good job of simulating what your talking about. It's not Gloranthan but still useful reading: http://www.gspendragon.com/bookofbattle.html https://www.nocturnal-media.com/store/pendragon-book-of-battle-2nd-edition We're using it in our current Uther campaign.

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_mail.htm This site is interesting as at the end they try swimming in viking mail...

If it's a technique it's likely been adopted somewhere and refined. I'm not an expert at this, but i've not come across it. Any one out there with real mail making experience? - I'm talking hot metal and hammers here.

That's certainly not my experience of playing or players. May happen occasionally but usually players avoid doing that for exactly the reason you specify. We had a player who did cat's cradle spirit magic based on that idea. Worked really well. They were An excellent example of YGMV, fitted in well with the guidelines in the rules too: I've also had quite a few players who never spend their remaining points and abilities, or only finally do so after 2 or 3 years of playing.

I've run a gaming club for the last 30 years. We still play a large range of games old and new with on average three different game s running at a time. Players join games based on the interest that they have in that particular game. Rarely do new players have any idea of what they want for their character (as they don't own the rules). An an as you go system is ideal to ease them into a system rather than making choices they don't understand. I've just had the same experience myself in playing Iron Kingdoms - no idea of the system so I'm forced to make character choices I don't understand. Likewise I'm playing in a game of Warhammer Fantasy Role Play - never played it before and have no idea of how it works. Template systems, play as you go systems and even pre-gens are great for newcomers. Experienced players can be treated differently if needed. I'd never penalise a player who didn't know what kind of character they wanted to play.

My new Gloranthan players had no real problem choosing stuff. We streamlined the HQG system from HeroQuest2 and the Sartar & Pavis books - cutting down on points to allocate for example. If you are running a Sun Dome game with templars, you are automatically limiting the generation even further. Using the as-you-go on page HQG p34 1. Choose your distinguishing characteristic. Your occupation is Warrior (Heavy Infantry). 2. Cultural Keyword is Sun Domer 13 3. Choose a community from one on the Sun County Map in the RQ book or from the location of militia units on SC p43 that's set at 13 4. Occupational Keyword is Warrior (Heavy Infantry) 17 5. Three runes Fire 1M, Truth and choose one. Last two choose 17 or 13. 6. Add your distinguishing characteristic as an ability. It starts at 17 (unless it is a breakout from another keyword). 7. Choose your name 8. Pick a geas from either Pavis GtA or roll it from Sun County ------- I Stop here and start the game ------- 8. Pick 5 breakouts or abilities 9. Spend up to 12 additional points on keywords, Runes, additional abilities, or supporting characters. Keep track of any unspent points. You cannot spend more than 10 points on any one ability. 10. Describe up to 3 flaws. One can be a distinguishing characteristic if you want. ------ So, the seven steps I use would mean that you just need choose a community, choose 1 rune and decide is it 13 or 17, a distinguishing characteristic and your name (possibly pick a geas, but I'd let them roll). All the other stuff can be done in game. This is the basic model I use when running HQG with new players. It's the model I use with the Praxian playtest (except they get to pick 5 charms)

Too noisy to during a game, pliers are quiet, not sure you can even hammer them closed. https://metalsmithing.wonderhowto.com/how-to/make-chain-mail-armor-from-start-finish-0118499/ The guy in our group uses small rings.

The significant bit here is that its an annoying error in the rules (4ed BGB). Armour Value (AV) is the term used throughout the rules until it gets to the equipment tables. Then it switches to AP and says on page 261: So AP = Armour Protection. But no. Later under shields on page 264 it says Armour Value isn't listed in the Index, but a single entry on Armour Points is! In the end they are the same thing. Like you, it was picked up by a few of my players who couldn't see what it was as they read all about Armour Values.

It would be easy here to list all of the NPCs in the book and list their Name, occupation, distinguishing characteristic, cult and ask if @MOB would add three runes. Most of the NPCs in the book have shorthand traits. This isn't about posting the RQ NPCs and then chopping them down, it's just those 5 items.

Ignoring history and looking at what we know exists, bronze mail does seem to exist - just not in the form we'd expect. It seems that it was used as decorative edging on iron mail. The material was a bronze alloy called Latten and it looks like gold - hence it's decorative role. Mail shirt at the Wallace collection in London http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultLightboxView/result.t1.collection_lightbox.$TspTitleImageLink.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=1&sp=2&sp=Slightbox_3x4&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=0&sp=F&sp=T&sp=2 Mail standard at the Wallace collection in London http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultLightboxView/result.t2.collection_lightbox.$TspTitleLink.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=2&sp=2&sp=Slightbox_3x4&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=0&sp=F&sp=T&sp=3 both have it as the edging. The consensus seems to be that the reason that bronze mail wasn't made is that it was more difficult to work with as it was brittle and that iron was much more plentiful. Why use an inferior material. I realise that Gloranthan bronze to only analogous to real bronze so there must be another reason - Have you ever watched someone making mail? We've a guy at our group who links mail while gaming (much like those who knit while gaming). He's buys wire (it's not iron but a softer alloy) so he's not doing the drawing process through plates or hammering it down. He wraps it round a core to get the tiny diameter required, then snips it in to rings. Then he uses pliers to bend open the ring, attaches it to the appropriate place (it's 1 to 4 mail) then bends the ring closed. It's really time consuming. This isn't even the riveted kind (I've no idea how long that would take) or the ring to scale kind (quicker as there is a scale disc in the mix). Just the needle nosed pliers would be the magic bit. The harder the metal the more strength required. I'm wondering who would be able to make the tools required to do this in bronze age Glorantha and who would have the time! This is clearly dwarven magic! BTW if you like swords and armour, and are visiting London - most people miss the Wallace Collection in the heart of the West end as they believe it's just paintings, cookery and fancy room with furniture. It has an excellent arms and armour collection spread through 5 galleries. https://www.wallacecollection.org

There's also a discussion in HeroQuest-RPG@yahoogroups.com however I archived the messages in group of 10000s so the file's 25Mb - too big for here. Threads start around message number 20458. Log in to Yahoo groups and have a search.

There's this thread from July 2012 from the MD Q&A forum: Man Rune Submitted by Araknir on Mon, 23/07/2012 - 14:46 Hello, I'm starting mastering the Colymar campain, and one of my players decided to take the Man Rune as a 3rd rune (with Air and Movement). The problem is I have trouble with the meaning of the rune, or its potential applications. Does someone already faced this ? How would you explain or leverage this rune ? I have some instinct telling me about links to ancestors or the like, but i'm not really sure about it. Thanks Araknir Flesh Man Submitted by Roland Volz on Tue, 31/07/2012 - 13:19. If they're Sartarite Orlanthi, something Flesh Man related would be fantastic. He's an important Lightbringer, the only one who could follow Eurmal's path, and the Everyman bystander to the deeds of the gods in the most important formative myth for the Heortlings. And yet, he rarely gets his due. There was a Flesh Man Common Religion keyword in HQ1; it might be worth checking out for appropriate abilities. I'll do some search then, as Submitted by Araknir on Tue, 31/07/2012 - 13:53. I'll do some search then, as I'm pretty sure this char does not want to become a devotee (things may change though). Do you remember in which HQ1 book it was ? I think it was the core book Submitted by Roland Volz on Wed, 01/08/2012 - 07:35. I think it was the core book, actually. In the Heortling section, that was supposedly the most popular common religion. Flesh Man Submitted by David on Wed, 01/08/2012 - 08:03. In HQ1 Flesh man (page 48) is a common religion for the Orlanthi; "The Heortlings’ ancestor, called Flesh Man, provides common magic to the religion." Common religions disappear in HQ2 (phew). Look at HQ2 & Sartar for for more up to date info on the subject. In Sartar: KoH Flesh man is only important in the LBQ and as a title on clan rings, fulfilling the ancestor role. More importantly to Orlanthi he is Darhudan with his wife/sister Darhudana, the first mortals. Later after Eurmal kills him, he is then called "Darhudan, Judge of the Dead. He used to be Grandfather Mortal..". The Praxians call him Daka Fal. He gives no magic. If you want ancestor magic, create a single rune hero/ancestor cult with the rune of your choice (eg Man). If you want to contact spirit ancestors, you need Kolat in Sartar Companion. Other than Sartar:KoH, there is more about Flesh man, Darhuda & Darhudan in Heortling Mythology. ----- David Scott According to King of Sartar Submitted by Roland Volz on Wed, 01/08/2012 - 15:22. So, according to King of Sartar, Flesh Man sees Orlanth kill the Bright Emperor and later sees Eurmal kill Grandfather Mortal, and goes mad. He sees death and doom all around, and follows the trail of destruction, unwittingly tracking Eurmal; this is where Chalana Arroy tries to heal him, fails, and follows him into the LBQ. On the LBQ, the Lightbringers go to the Court of Silence, where they see Darhudan meting out justice to the dead. Then the Lightbringers all return at the Dawn. Now you're saying that Flesh Man, Grandfather Mortal, and Darhudan are all the same. I can buy Grandfather Mortal and Darhudan, as that makes sense, but I can't wrap my head around them being cognates of Flesh Man as well. I know myths contradict each other, but they at least generally don't contradict themselves. I don't like it. No sir, I don't like it at all. ----------------- I actually liked Flesh Man as a common religion in HQ1. He was obviously somebody that you could mythically connect to in order to gain magical powers, albeit of dubious use. However, he also obviously wasn't a god, spirit, or essence of any kind; talents fit best. how to make it so... Submitted by Charles on Thu, 02/08/2012 - 00:48. One of the differences that separates gods from mortals is that they are capable of several simultaneous manifestations (I don't have the reference to hand). So it is quite possible that Flesh Man was driven mad by seeing himself being killed. And while Granfather Mortal/Flesh Man/Darhudan is/are seen as the archetypal mortal, they are clearly also on the cusp between immortal and mortal. Darhudan is now, as the first mortal to die, the god of the Dead (as opposed to Humakt the god of Death/Dying/Killing). BTW, mortals can kinda work around even this bar on separate manifestations. But that is a topic for another posting Except Flesh Man is the mortal Submitted by Roland Volz on Thu, 02/08/2012 - 07:34. Except Flesh Man is the mortal in the hero band. That's his defining characteristic in the versions of the myth that I can think of off the top of my head. That's why his powers are all Talents. Flesh man is the mortal except on the otherside Submitted by David on Thu, 02/08/2012 - 14:24. There are a few things to keep in mind at this point: Of course your Glorantha may vary and you can have Flesh man as a cult that gives talents. The game system reflecting Glorantha: HeroQuest has moved on from HQ1, giving it a more accurate reflection of how Glorantha is. Who is telling the myth? none of the myths in Glorantha exist in isolation. If your players are being told the myth of Flesh man, and you want him to be the source of talents, that's fine. Enacting the myth. Your heroes may discover that playing Flesh man in a HeroQuest is not the same as his story. Look at the LBQ in the Colymar campaign for what Flesh man's representative does. Mythology and heroquesting doesn't have to make any linear time sense (as others have said), heroes can meet themselves, watch future selves do stuff as well as see past selves actions, they may not even realise it's them (watch the end scenes of 2001 for a great example of an other world journey where someone sees himself, or better still 2001 seconds). If you've not read Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Cambell, have a go, you're in for a treat. Back to Flesh man. In the story he's the mortal, As he steps from this world to the otherside in the heroquest, he becomes the representative of all mortals. As he transcends himself, he is all mortals that have ever been and himself, so he is Grandfather Mortal, Darhudan and himself as well. He may glimpse his fate - to die like all mortals and be judged by himself (If you read Frank Herbert's Dune series, the Bene Gesserit unleash a similar experience with the waters of life). What the hero does with that experience is what is important, screaming and going mad is a good option. Flesh man has no existance outside of that story and in that quest as he is actually all of us. I believe that at the end of the original LBQ he is bound into the net as the Judge of the Dead and never returns with his secrets, his insights having transformed him, saving us all, not just from his madness. He dies so that we can be saved - oooh, interesting mythic resonance. ----- David Scott That's about what I thought, Submitted by Araknir on Thu, 02/08/2012 - 03:34. That's about what I thought, that Granfather Mortal/Darhudan and Flesh Man could very well be the same entity at two points of its myth (since there is no time at that point, there is the possibility of having myth "mixed up". I could see this as a specificity of the clan, worshipping the two as a single entity. Love that interpretation Charles If I'm not mistaken Arkat met/wounded himself heroquesting... This lead to the topic of Submitted by Araknir on Wed, 01/08/2012 - 08:24. This lead to the topic of Hero Cults which I still have trouble understanding. I am catching the concept (sacrifying to ascended mortals to gain specific magic) but I don't quite understand the relation to divine cults, runes, and general rules. In S:KoH, hero cults are considered subcults of other deities. But can subcults give affinity to a different rune than the major cult it belongs to ? Hero Cults Submitted by David on Wed, 01/08/2012 - 08:42. Orlanth cult heroes are described in S:KoH on page 131. The listing of Orlanth Heroes and Hero Cults can be found in the Book of Heortling Mythology (25 pages of it!). They can clearly have a different affinity: "Angorat [the Shade-Sword] was a courageous and successful Orgorvaltes leader during the Darkness. He defended his people against trolls and demons, and was most famous when he defeated a great troll army at Sword Hill. It is said he could see in the dark, hear a foe who was invisible, and that troll shot bounced off of him." Angorat clearly has darkness as his elemental rune. ----- David Scott Thanks, just found it... Submitted by Araknir on Wed, 01/08/2012 - 08:01. Thanks, just found it... seems to be mostly common magic (but common magic got changed in HQ2) with generic "this world" enhancements (talents) and some reference to ancestors. I may try to devise something based on this concept of natural talents and appropriation (on the principle that, if on human can do it without help from the gods/spirits/essences, then every human can do it at some degree) Man Rune Submitted by David on Tue, 24/07/2012 - 04:03. I've had a player with the Man rune in my Sartar game. We used it as an amplifier for the "formness" of the Man rune, so anything relating to the human form can be used (don't forget troll and elves have this form as well), it's also about self mastery of your self. Don't forget that unless he is part of a man rune cult, he can only every augment, however that's easily solved by inventing a man rune ancestor cult. In my Praxian game, it becomes much more important as everyone is part of the Praxian tradition (Man/Beast rune), so gains access to Man rune based charms. To help my players out, I've some sample charms for the Man rune: Harden bones Overcome pain Stop bleeding Stay awake Defer meal and some Daka Fal (Man/Spirit rune) ones: Giant strength Feel illness Heal bone Fight poison These charms could easily be man rune augments. ----- David Scott Nice, thanks for the info. Submitted by Araknir on Tue, 24/07/2012 - 05:28. Nice, thanks for the info. That seems to fit my player acception of the rune. Also, if I understood correctly S:KoH, breakout abilities can be used directly even for non-initiates, so if the character buys those breakouts abilities they could be used as magical abilities. My understanding on that is Submitted by Araknir on Tue, 24/07/2012 - 07:24. My understanding on that is that the runes are first the nature of the person, and second a way to emulate its god. The god allow to use the rune following its nature, directly, without needing specialties (for exemple every orlanth initiate has the capability to fly or to command winds, but their score in the rune, their breakouts ability or the subcults they belong to define the extent of those power). A breakout in a rune where you are not initiate is just that : a power like a charm or a spell, but coming from the pantheon, and associated to the nature of the character. For exemple I have an Orlanth Initiate with the Magic rune, and a breakout ability under it to Sense Otherwordly Entities, which seems fine to me and well within the nature of the rune. Something, something, birds and bees, something, something... Submitted by Dreamstreamer on Tue, 24/07/2012 - 01:50. Well, Pavis: Gateway to Adventure talks about the Man Rune in relation to the Pavis cult. From what I could gather, it serves two primary purposes: First, it fosters unity with others that have the Man Rune. Second, it allows individuals to mate with other species that share the Man Rune. This might be limited to the Pavis cult. This appears to affect all mortal humanoid species, as they all inherently have the Man Rune, even if it is not one of the dominant (three) runes for that individual. Apparently, it is pretty rare as a dominant rune. I'll see if I can find another source for additional ideas. Edit: And Ninja'd! A billion years is too short a time to accomplish everything you can imagine, for imagination is infinite. A man rune cult is already Submitted by metcalph on Tue, 24/07/2012 - 01:47. A man rune cult is already described in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure. But I think it better to ask what your player thinks the man rune will allow him to do. Is he imitating Flesh Man or what? As I understand it, he was Submitted by Araknir on Tue, 24/07/2012 - 03:02. As I understand it, he was not expecting any cult power from it. My players are complete Glorantha Newbies (and I'm not much more experienced) and come from a more dirigist RPG background. They are currently trying to get comfortable with the conflict resolution and abilities of HQ2 and I aim to facilitate their experience by giving them rough indication on what their runes implies. I have one char with the Magic Rune, but this one got quickly rounded up. As for the Man rune, I think he consider it as an extension of his "humanity". I'm not sure what he mean by that and I'm scouring for information. I wasn't aware of the association with the Pavis cult. I saw some relations with the cult of Daka Fal in Prax (ancestor related) or Davan Vor/Darhudan and Flesh Man in the Orlanth myths. That's what got me to the ancestor relations (that and the fact this is an aspect of Orlanthi religion that is mostly inkled in the canon, but not quite formalized). I saw a write up of an Ancestor tradition in Cults of Glorantha (probably coming from Cult of Prax) but nothing so formalized for orlanthi. Secrets of the Man Rune Submitted by Herve on Tue, 24/07/2012 - 07:14. That's an interesting tread, and I'd like to contribute. To me, the Man rune is a Form rune, just like the Plant and Beast Runes. It is part of the make-up of all humanoids (elder races). MAN means here more "humanoïd" (two arms, two legs, stands upright) than... human. Pavis used this Power in conjonction with HARMONY to try to magically fuse races together - but we still ignore his/its ultimate goal beyond all this "multiracial harmony" dross. I've always been suspicious of Pavis' motives. He / it was a freak of nature, born of the impossible. Your player could be many things beyond "a better human". He could become a humanoid air daimon, for instance. He could use his Power (ie connection to rune) to affect or influence other humanoids : freeze them (not very orlanthi), control their Movement (better), even influence their behavior. That'd make him a fringe weirdo with the "evil eye" or somesuch. Would that appeal to your player ?

There's a whole comedy genre based on this. Google miserable old git pictures or grumpy old people pictures, Father Jack, Stadler and Wardolf, Victor Meldrew, etc. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-e-wyer/men-and-grumpiness_b_5266944.html

The classic has the dots, yes. I've the classic and an original with the lines. There were definitely multiple printings but the MiG doesn't mention those nor the the online version http://web.archive.org/web/20090228094412/http://www.glorantha.info:80/ (the text is the same). Time to call on Mr. Suitcase (@Rick Meints) - So how many printings and did they vary only in the character sheet changes dots to line?

I use http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/3d/#distance=6987&tilt=1.01&heading=2.971145028578106&lat=57.2274&lon=-6.1961&layers=6 you need to choose the correct layer. This is OS 6 inch, you can turn it to the angle you want then screen shot. Choose places in the north of Scotland or in Wales.

I was thinking more of electroluminescent sheets, I used them a lot in displays in a previous job: https://elwirecraft.co.uk/product/white-el-panel-in-many-sizes-a6-a5-a4-a3-a2-and-a1-2/ or an a4 eInk character sheet device compatible with all games. That’s the future.

1980 RQ2 edition

Through rose-tinted glasses:-)

Character sheets in any RPG are always the subject of heated discussion. Fancy, plain, not enough info, font too big font too small, should be serif, should be readable, font is not readable, I'm colour-blind I can't see this bit of the sheet or that bit, too much info, no space for a pic, hate spaces for a pic. single sided, double sided, or single sheets. Character portfolios, homemade or bought, needs an inkjet, needs a laser, has self calculating fields, has fields, is a rights enabled form-fillable pdf, why do I need pdf, wrong version of pdf, only works with acrobat, is too big to email, is too big for a tablet, is for US A4, is for UK A4 is some weird size that wastes my paper, ink, toner, time filling it in, is landscape, folds in a weird way to make a three column leaflett, has character generation info I don't need, has character generation info I do need, has character generation info I don't need but you do, doesn't work for my race, career, etc, not enough room for my spells, too much room for my spells, hit location table, actual pic of person with hit location table, but no duck version, troll version, female version, why did you buy those when plain paper will do, has a giant graphic I don't need, has no space for my name, not enough space for my character's name and middle name and surname, a spreadsheet is the best, a spreadsheet is the worst, this spreadsheet doesn't work properly in Excel, Google Docs, Numbers, ... Have I missed anything? It's an entirely personal thing. At our group over the last 30 years I think I've heard all of the above. We're a diverse group playing a wide range or old and new stuff. I've just been playing Iron Kingdoms - fancy sheet, looks good, works well, but the hit point section was a bizarre unreadable spirally thing. The biggest problem we have is that the light levels where we meet are so low that you often can't read you character sheet without extra light. So please guys just make it self illuminating or I won't buy any of your product again.

PDF bookmarks are okay up to a point then become _GoBack - multiple times.

The Guide entry Dwarf Knoll and the Copper Caves tells us it was a former Dwarf city in the God time full of Mostali Ghosts. It's not marked as an oasis (but YGMV). Flintnail met Pavis there and there may still be Dwarves within. Otherwise its a 5 mile wide rise on the plains of Prax. Looking at my master Prax map reveals one oddity about the place: This map overlays the water demesnes (yes spelled wrong on the map!) of Prax on to the grazings. The water demesnes are the hidden extent of various water spirits in Prax (we'd call them catchments). Every water demesne in Prax but one has an associated oasis or serpent. There are four grazing colours on the map. Light green (The Long Dry & East Zola Fel) these provide Grazing 1 in 2 Years, Green (Eiritha Hills) Best grazing all year round, Darker Green (Prax) and Brown (Dead Place, Zola Fel Bogs) None or Poor Grazing. The Dwarf Knoll demesne is the only one that has no oasis or serpent. Also the land above is drier - The Long Dry! an anomaly in Prax. So where does the water go? It's my belief that the Copper Caves being an old Mostali Mine drain the water into some unnatural fracture in the land below. Countless shifts of dwarves have perished trying to patch the problem. Their deaths in this unnatural situation cause their ghosts to populate the complex rather than enter the recycling phase. The crack likely originates in the Great Darkness and could go to an Underworld or the Chaos Void. It's deep enough that it's Dwarves fight alone. Although a normal water demesne in Prax isn't a large amount of water, once you get deep enough, you are on the otherside. The flood is a huge Maelstrom whirling into a giant sinkhole. Dwarves in specialist equipment hang from the ceiling in iron roped rigs lowering enchanted structures into the void to form the basis for a plug. Every so often a monster rises up from the sinkhole and smashes the work. Exterminator crews scramble to save the structure, diving in with specialist underwater combat gear. Many never return from this endless battle. (Think Das Boot, A Perfect Storm, meets Pacific Rim). They are so deep underground that no one can hear them scream.

I've opened a new thread to reflect to the discussion's move over to Gloranthan warfare.

I've moved this over from https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6893-can-warding-be-abused-this-way/?page=4 to a new thread as the direction has gone in a new and interesting direction: @Pentallionsaid @Joerg @Furry Fella @g33k

If you’re interested in what 13th Age has to offer, but don’t want to invest in the Core book, The Archmage Engine is the13th Age SRD: It’s free on Drivethrough and has the advantage that it tells you when it's updated - currently version 3: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/129794/13th-Age-System-Reference-Document? The Pelgrane site has not only individual files for sections, but a doc as well as pdf version http://site.pelgranepress.com/index.php/the-archmage-engine-13th-age-srd/ its a usual fluff and art free SRD, but enough to use with 13G. It's over 700 pages long!