Personalities of the Fire, Light and Heat Runes

[David Scott]

41 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Little is known about Him but Yamsur is generally portrayed as a hero in the modern sense. He seems to have been deeply loved and His heroic martyrdom probably encourages this view.

Yamsur is part of three point fire-light-star triangle made of Yamsur, Yelmalio and Yelorana, that's why Yelmalio and Yelorna were so readily adopted by the Praxians and why the Praxian version of Yelmalio has no Light Priests and is mounted. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Yamsur is part of three point fire-light-star triangle made of Yamsur, Yelmalio and Yelorana, that's why Yelmalio and Yelorna were so readily adopted by the Praxians and why the Praxian version of Yelmalio has no Light Priests and is mounted. 

were they less terrible before Nysalor got to them? now they're all in hair shirts and hate sex and fun

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, None said:

Have anyone beside the God Learners tried to change the personality and nature of any of the gods through Hero Questing (I'm straight out assuming the God' Learners did try and that it went horribly but feel free to mention them anyway, by the way remember once having heard about the God Learners and a trickster university, what was that about)?

Actually, if you managed to change the personality of a god that is a rune wouldn't you potentially change the entire rune?

Lokamayadon's quest to reach the High Storm Tarumath may be the closest any quester may have come to achieve that.

I don't think that the God Learners would have done much of that - they were after the runic attributes and powers of the deities and couldn't care less for their personalities or preferences.

A few Storm Gods allowed themselves to be tamed, but usually for the promise of marital bliss (by Sea or Earth goddesses). Aerlit even sired the prophet of Logic, and Kahar achieved Stillness in his meditative quest to get the hand and body of Harantara.

A number of "aspects of Sedenya" likely underwent some editing to do away with overly Yelmic traits, e.g. Davu.

 

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How about calling Shargash 'Shaggy'?

Mr. Bombastic, aka Lover Lover? More appropriate for Tolat on Trowjang.

 

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edit: speaking or runes, I just remembered.

What's up with the Dragon rune (not the Dragonewt rune, the onethat looks like square turned 45 degrees with a cross painted over it) and what is its relation with the Dragonewt rune and the dragons of  Dragon Pass?

I know that som Kraloreans turn into what sort of look like dragonewts but actually aren't and that the Dragon rune seem to have something to do with another form of Illumination but that's about it.

The Godunya Rune is manifested in his bridges, acting both as mundane bridges for his mortal subjects and as the Kralori version of Dragonewt Roads for the eastern 'Newts and sufficiently enlightened draconic sages. There doesn't seem to be a dragonewt-rune-like ensemble of structures in Kralorela, the three (big) dragonewt cities of the islands off the Genertelan Mainland don't align in any recognizable runic pattern (any more?), and we have no information whether they are connected by magical roads other than the Bridge reaching the northern one.

There is no evidence for earlier dragon emperors having made use of this geographical pattern, and it is unclear whether Yanoor or Shang-Hsa MHNBC used the symbol. RQ3 Gods of Glorantha gave it to the Immanent Masters as well as to Godunya.

Godunya had visited the EWF - possibly early enough to meet Obduran the Flyer. He fairly certainly visited and used the dragonewt roads of the Pass and was aware of their pattern. The Immanent Masters are attested for the EWF, and Isgangdrang's personal "accelerated dragon worship" appears to have been a variation thereof.

The God Learners were familiar with dragonewts from Ryzel in Maniria (then Slontos). They probably knew the dragonewt rune, and Gilam D'Estau might have used his limited insight into the Dragonewt or even just the Beast rune to subvert Yanoor's empire.

The Beast Rune was described as depicting a dragon's scale. (Even though it looks like Truth inside Law upside down.)

 

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edit, edit: oh yes, also.

I've been thinking about all that's been said about Dendara and an argument could be made that she was originally an Earth goddess that got rid of her Earth rune in favour for the Light rune. That would solve the whole she's descended from the Earth goddesses but the Earth rune not fitting her role thing and place within Dara Happan society.

That's Dara Happan society, or rather Yelmic society, which admittedly spread out over all of civilized Peloria, but Dendara appears to have played a role in Darsen and Pelanda outside of Yelmic context as well.

The celestial wife of Yelm certainly goes well with Light and Harmony. Her planet (or orb) rose up from below - it isn't clear whether the other (city) orbs of Dara Happa (as shown in the Copper Tablets) rose from the city towers (much like Yelm did, helplessly, when Oslira came) or whether they descended from their father Yelm much like the Three Brothers (of Fire: Lodril, Yelm, Dayzatar) had done.

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Of course, that would probably make her relation with most Earth goddesses tense and I don't know if gods changing elemental runes is at all normal.

It is known for subcult entities to change or add runes compared to the main deity. That doesn't mean they have no trace of the rune that they don't display, it just says that this runic association is not one of the primary ones.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I just recalled a Sun deity that goes against type: Yamsur. He's portrayed as a pretty happy-go-lucky wastrel-esque guy in the Hyaloring myths in Six Ages. Whether his people (the Genertings? Tadaings? proto-Oasis Folk) saw him like that is a different matter entirely, of course, but the characterization is there.

If he was acculturated at Genert's court, his conduct must have been pretty scandalous to those taking the Dara Happan court for their definition of civilized behavior.

I think that his people were the original Hyalorings, the horse cavalry serving the Earth God. Possibly avilry and griffin riders, too. At some time, they must have offended the Founders of the Animal Nomads of the southern (core) part of Genert's Garden. Spurning Eiritha?

This might even be behind Storm Bull's absence from the Battle of Earthfall. We never got an explanation for that.

The enmity might have extended to Tada, or may have exempted him.

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Not sure what's "up with it", did you mean in any special sense, the origin, design, implication, function or something else? 

It's a diamond shape (a square askew) crossed out. It could imply something to do with the Void, in the sense that dragons and dragonnewts seek disentanglement and mystical ascension beyond the confinement of the material world/ordered cosmos (the diamond), but that's just my interpretation. 

I also think the Beast Rune (as well as, more obviously, the Dragonnewt Rune) is derived from it, due to the large presence of serpent/dragon-imagery in Beast-mythology and symbolism, but this is a bit more esoteric.

Morphologically, I find it hard to derive the equilateral triangle from the square or vice versa. If you take four dragonewt runes and arrange them so that their bases fit into a square, a Godunya rune with an extra star inscribed would result, but that's the closest transformation geometry offers.

Numerologically, you go from 3 sides 1 bar in the Dragonewt Rune to 4 sides 2 bars in the Godunya or Dragon Rune. The logical next steps would be 5 sides 3 bars (aka a Fate Rune inside a pentangon) and 6 sides 4 bars (or in other words an 8-ray asterisk - the symbol of Pole Star in the center of the firmament - inside a hexagon).

That sequence could be part of the draconic devolution sequence, from Orxili (hexagon) to the Ancestral Dragons (pentagon) to the True Dragons (diamond) to the netenic dragons aka Dragonewts (triangle).

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Apparently it's a Condition Rune and not a Form Rune, which I find a bit weird, but oh well. 

Much like Moon and Chaos, too.

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The Guide says that Godunya "owns" the Dragon Rune, but as usual, I find the concept of Rune ownership more obfuscating and misleading than it is useful, so honestly that can mean anything. I'll take it to mean that the God Learners found the Kralori Emperor to be the most powerful/widely acknowledged authority using the Rune they came into contact with (and for a while usurped), but that's just my take on it.

When I waffled about subcults replacing runes of the superior deity, I thought that the subcults of an owner of a rune should always have that owned rune of the superior. Thus, no subcults or aspects of Ernalda without Earth, no subcults or aspects of Orlanth without Storm, no subcults or aspects of Yelm without Fire, none of Humakt without Death, none of Issaries without Communication...)

 

52 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Little is known about Him but Yamsur is generally portrayed as a hero in the modern sense. He seems to have been deeply loved and His heroic martyrdom probably encourages this view.

Yamsur was there for Earthfall, and perished in that battle (and was lucky that his name is remembered). This doesn't leave much room for a previous martyrdom. What does Six Ages have to say about that martyrdom? I understand Six Ages to play before Earthfall, or at best having Earthfall some time during the storyline. The Glacier came before the invasion of Wakboth.

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yamsur was there for Earthfall, and perished in that battle (and was lucky that his name is remembered). This doesn't leave much room for a previous martyrdom. What does Six Ages have to say about that martyrdom? I understand Six Ages to play before Earthfall, or at best having Earthfall some time during the storyline. The Glacier came before the invasion of Wakboth.

Yamsur is alive and living in Genert's Garden with Gamari during Six Ages. But the Riders and Dara Happans don't worship Him.

The martyrdom I discuss is Earthfall.

 

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yamsur is alive and living in Genert's Garden with Gamari during Six Ages. But the Riders and Dara Happans don't worship Him.

IMO that's because (a) Hyalor (and his comrade Kuschile) only came among the Nivorah refugees as a heroic teacher, possibly with a small band of followers from the Garden. Probably riding Goldeneye Hyal horses rather than the seredae of Gamara.

From this small separate group, Beren's Elmali and the Vuranostrum kernel for the future Pure Horse Folk of Prax probably were splinter groups.

[Qizilbashwoman]

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

IMO that's because (a) Hyalor (and his comrade Kuschile) only came among the Nivorah refugees as a heroic teacher, possibly with a small band of followers from the Garden. Probably riding Goldeneye Hyal horses rather than the seredae of Gamara.

From this small separate group, Beren's Elmali and the Vuranostrum kernel for the future Pure Horse Folk of Prax probably were splinter groups.

you... you gotta play Six Ages, bro

I mean really, go play it

hashtag no uhhhh spoilers

Edited November 27, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Bill the barbarian]

On 11/24/2019 at 9:25 AM, scott-martin said:

One complication here is that Sky is really where human religious innovation starts and then develops in the Storm interaction. Before that you mostly have tutelary relationships with "elder race" complexes transmitting their elemental orientations. 

 

Shit scott, you have put some stuff down on pixel before but... spectacular. And I really don’t care about the watery realms in Glorantha (or perhaps, didn’t).

"What happens in Dagori Inkarth..." Golden! 

Yep, yer efforts to expand my understanding of a game I have been playing forever is really and truly appreciated.

[None]

By the way, I what way does the Orlanthi consider Molanni bad (aside from joining the Solar pantheon and mothering Daga) and how do the Dara Happans and othe Pelorians view her?

 

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not sure what's "up with it", did you mean in any special sense, the origin, design, implication, function or something else?

Its implication and function, and also its origin I supose.

Adding to that, what is it doing in Kralorela? Something hapened and they became Draconic, but how and what does that actually mean?

Also this:

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

I know that som Kraloreans turn into what sort of look like dragonewts but actually aren't and that the Dragon rune seem to have something to do with another form of Illumination but that's about it.

I meant that as a question (somehow).

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Davu

Davu? (I feel like a broken record but realy, that word mean nothing to me.)

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

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How about calling Shargash 'Shaggy'?

Mr. Bombastic, aka Lover Lover? More appropriate for Tolat on Trowjang.

Uh, no. I just tried to think of an as non-intimidating nickname for Shargas as possible.

 

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Godunya had visited the EWF - possibly early enough to meet Obduran the Flyer. He fairly certainly visited and used the dragonewt roads of the Pass and was aware of their pattern. The Immanent Masters are attested for the EWF, and Isgangdrang's personal "accelerated dragon worship" appears to have been a variation thereof.

So the ragons of Kralorela foes have something to do with  dragonewts and the dragons of Dragon Pass? They're not their own thing?

 

edit: I just (as in when I went to sleep but I just remebred it again) thought of something. Does there exist anyone, god or mortal, with both the Illusion and the Truth rune? I know they're opposite but you should be able to have both if your Illuminated.

If you want to do something meaningful and special with those two runes (not just someone who hapen to have both of them) what would the result or implications be? Could you make a Trickster with an active (so to speak) Truth rune?

Edited November 28, 2019 by None

[Eff]

36 minutes ago, None said:

By the way, I what way does the Orlanthi consider Molanni bad (aside from joining the Solar pantheon and mothering Daga) and how do the Dara Happans and othe Pelorians view her?

Molanni is bad because she's stagnant, foul air. Air that never moves, air that stays in one place. Air and Stasis. She's an affront to the rightful order of things, so of course she went and married the Emperor or one of his court and of course she's the mother of wicked creatures like Daga. 

(Contrastingly, Brastalos is the No Wind- air that only appears to be standing still but is actually secretly moving, the eye of the hurricane.)

Dara Happans appear to not know who Molanni is beyond a single mention in the story of the wedding of Yelm. If this is an effort to adapt a polygynous tradition where Dendara was first among Yelm's wives, then there's a synchronization with conventional Orlanthi interpretations. 

In general, though, I don't think they have many stories of Molanni. Calm, gentle air is considered righteous, but Molanni is stagnant air and not even unwashed Dara Happans could call her good. Much like how the destructive aspects of Orlanth are downplayed in Orlanthi culture, I presume that Molanni is almost purely a list deity in Peloria.

[JonL]

41 minutes ago, None said:

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

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How about calling Shargash 'Shaggy'?

Mr. Bombastic, aka Lover Lover? More appropriate for Tolat on Trowjang.

Uh, no. I just tried to think of an as non-intimidating nickname for Shargas as possible

So, it wasn't Shaggy then.

[Sir_Godspeed]

18 minutes ago, None said:

Its implication and function, and also its origin I supose.

Adding to that, what is it doing in Kralorela? Something hapened and they became Draconic, but how and what does that actually mean?

Also this:

Kralorela used to be a part of the larger Vithelan continent/cultural region, and a part of the Kingdom of Enlightenment (possibly a synonym for Vithela), but when the Seas invaded the surface, this realm was geographically split, and the cultures diverged. 

Most of former Vithela/the East has a mix of a Solar theistic ruling class and various forms of mysticism along with other forms of theism and presumably some shamanism. In the case of Kralorela, their ruling Solar classes eventually converted to a Draconic mysticism sometime during the Storm Age or Darkness (it's hard to tell when, because the East did not have a Darkness in the same sense that we are used to talking about it in Orlanthi terms). It's my impression that this conversion to Draconic thought was some form of "survival secret", or strategy. 

The Draconic mysticism has limited influence on practical day-to-day life of Kralorelans. While Draconic mysticism generally teaches one to avoid entanglement in material desires and ambition, so as to more easily attain the Void (for the purposes of this conversation, similar to the Buddhist or Hindu concepts of Nirvana/Nibbana - ie. a "blissful" non-existence detached from need and want and dissatisfaction), most Kralorelans are much like other humans. They farm the earth, they drink, they squabble, they take delight in their loved ones and they have ambitions and dreams. 

The ruling classes, the Mandarins and Exarchs draw on Solar traditions, with a very legalistic and hierarchical worldview, where everything is to be classified, ordered and legible. Every man his place. Every place his man. Easier said than done. They're also prone to the same flaws as Solar hierarchies often are. 

The Emperor and some others in the Empire - and in a more broad sense, through various cultural iconography, ideas and ideals - partake in the Draconic mystic pursuits of detachment. However they still, by their very nature as Emperors, must guide, control and protect their people. The reason or basis for this arrangement and solution to this apparent dilemma is not known to me, nor do I really think it's necessarily required to answer. Mysticism requires mystery. Most likely I imagine a kind of Bodhisattva deal going on: where people who've attained the Void (or equivalent mystic concepts mirroring RW Liberation/Enlightenment) stay behind to help guide others. This is a theme that does repeat elsewhere in the East too. 

As far as I understand, the Dragon Emperor of Kralorela has mystically ascended to dragonhood. They're a dragon in human form. The Dragonnewts of Kralorela acknowledge them as their leader, and is basically their equivalent of the Inhuman King of Dragon Pass - unless I'm mistaken. Why this is specifically, I don't know, but one assumes the Dragonnewts have their reasons. Perhaps if for nothing else than that by maintaining the Empire, he is keeping their nest-cities safe. 

The Dragons of Kralorela also seem to answer to the Dragon Emperor to some degree, though I suspect this is less about commanding and more about having mutual understanding. Real Dragons are immense, mind-bogglingly powerful entities that defy human classification. They can be elemental, as in taking the forms of mountain ranges or rivers or even stellar constellations, they can lie still for millennia, they can alter reality and the landscape almost to their whim, they can take interest in nobodies just because. Every Real Dragon is basically unique in some way. Usually they don't do much, though, preferring disentanglement and mystic contemplation. During their sleep they emanate Dream Dragons, which are what we usually think of as dragons, big scaley reptiles with wings that breathe fire and are greedy and monstrous. But these are a pale imitation of the real thing. 

To the best of my knowledge, Kralori dragons and dragonnewts are basically the same as their Kerofinelan counterparts. 

There are also popular "folk" Draconic traditions, like the Immanent Masters and others, that work with some kind of accelerated ascendance to dragonhood for their followers. It's a dangerous, and arguably ultimately corruptive path (at the very least from a draconic view), where people end up with a lot of power, but not necessarily the wisdom to maintain disentanglement. 

This short-cut mentality also took hold in the Empire of Wyrm's Friends. Where the early EWF sages were probably similar to orthodox Kralori dragon sages, they eventually fell to temptation and external pressure, and started using more and more of their powers to preserve material needs, and some eventually developed short-cut practices. The Kralori sages (including Godunya, who apparently visited Dragon Pass during this time), to the point they know much about the EWF, consider it to have fallen to this practice and therefore doomed itself. This is something that can be written dozens of pages about, with lots of names and dates, but I'm not sure if that'll help us much. Point is: EWF tried to go big and imploded. Kralorela has found a kind of balance to things (for the most part).

This probably doesn't explain much about the rune itself, but hopefully there's something useful in here.

18 minutes ago, None said:

So the ragons of Kralorela foes have something to do with  dragonewts and the dragons of Dragon Pass? They're not their own thing?

 

Yup, see above.

[Eff]

48 minutes ago, None said:

edit: I just (as in when I went to sleep but I just remebred it again) thought of something. Does there exist anyone, god or mortal, with both the Illusion and the Truth rune? I know they're opposite but you should be able to have both if your Illuminated.

If you want to do something meaningful and special with those two runes (not just someone who hapen to have both of them) what would the result or implications be? Could you make a Trickster with an active (so to speak) Truth rune?

I don't think there are any canonical people who do, but they surely exist in some sense. 

That being said, a Trickster with a Truth rune is probably more aligned with Disorder than Illusion as far as Trickster goes. But in general- Truth is largely about objectivity and the process of internalizing objective facts into the subjective. Illusion is largely about subjectivity and the process of externalizing subjective facts into the objective. So you have the "finding the truth" element of scholarly gods, but you also have honor codes and binding geases as far as prominent Truth deities go. And Illusion deities are mostly entertainers, and Trickster in his many masks.  

So in that sense, perhaps an illuminate who has cultivated Illusion and Truth both would be able to use their magic to twist these aspects- transforming subjective beliefs into raw facts, warping objective codes into subjective interpretations. Very dangerous indeed. The most obvious deity to represent with these two Runes would unfortunately be our good old Chaotic friend, Gbaji the Deceiver. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

be our good old Chaotic friend, Gbaji the Deceiver. 

ימח שמו

[None]

22 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This probably doesn't explain much about the rune itself, but hopefully there's something useful in here.

It was useful, thanks.

[Mirza]

On 11/28/2019 at 6:01 AM, None said:

Davu? (I feel like a broken record but really, that word mean nothing to me.)

Joerg is referencing Khordavu, the first Dara Happan Emperor post the Dawn during the First Age circa 250 S.T. whom with the aid of Plentonius the scholar, "resurrected" shall we say the true worship of Yelm and the Dara Happan empire from the scattered remnants of the Solar peoples.

There is a theory in the forums here that Khordavu didn't actually resurrect Yelm's true worship, and that it was more a wholesale invention somewhat similar to Sedenya from various "Little Sun" myths and fragments. That makes it seem a bit more cynical than perhaps it was though, everyone in Peloria seemed to be aware that once they worshiped the Sun undivided and unmarred back during the Golden Age but that worship was lost with the Sun's death, and the subsequent dissolution of the ancient Solar Empire. But now the Sun's back but the "proper" worship isn't truly there, in steps Khordavu.

Some of the people here have speculated that "Yelm" was previously an office to be held by the pre-eminent Sky Diety of that time, with various gods we know as "Yelm" such as Arraz (Perhaps the first Yelm), Ourania, Polestar (I think), and Murharazam (as the one Orlanth kills). There might be more that people have said, those are just the ones I remember hearing speculation about off the top of my head.

So Khordavu wasn't purely cynical when he worked with Plentonius to "resurrect" the cult of Yelm, sure there was some cynicism in that it allowed Khordavu to achieve the greatest personal power, but it seems clear to some extent that Khordavu believed in the One Sun.

There is also another small accompanying theory that goes along with this one, that during the Sunstop one of the Unity Councillors a descendant of Khordavu, the Emperor Khorzanelm imposed the truth of Yelm on the Sun, and that was the true moment of (re)birth for Yelm from an outsiders perspective.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Mirza

[Joerg]

35 minutes ago, Mirza said:

Joerg is referencing Khordavu, the first Dara Happan Emperor post the Dawn during the First Age circa 250 S.T. whom with the aid of Plentonius the scholar, "resurrected" shall we say the true worship of Yelm and the Dara Happan empire from the scattered remnants of the Solar peoples.

Correct. Davu is mentioned in The Lives of Sedenya as one of her previous aspects/avatars/incarnations, and in GRoY as a special protective entity of the descendants of Avivath, the prophet of Antirius.

35 minutes ago, Mirza said:

There is a theory in the forums here that Khordavu didn't actually resurrect Yelm's true worship, and that it was more a wholesale invention somewhat similar to Sedenya from various "Little Sun" myths and fragments. That makes it seem a bit more cynical than perhaps it was though, everyone in Peloria seemed to be aware that once they worshiped the Sun undivided and unmarred back during the Golden Age but that worship was lost with the Sun's death, and the subsequent dissolution of the ancient Solar Empire. But now the Sun's back but the "proper" worship isn't truly there, in steps Khordavu.

At various points in Time (and previously the Gray Age), the solar worshipers arrived at a point where they said: "This is as much Sun as we have to work with, this is the Sun returned from the Underworld! Rejoice, and worship!"

This started with Kargzant returning, or with Kargzant overcoming Shargash in the Sun Swirl.

The Dawn brought forth a whole new quality of Sun, and was taken for the Sun released from the Underworld. Most non-Solar people let the story end there.

At the end of the first century, an event happened in the sky that is the Bridling of Kargzant. It isn't entirely clear whether this affected the day sky with the sun disk/orb, or whether it affected the night sky with the most luminous object there, Lightfore.

Shortly afterwards, Avivath the prophet emerged with his news from Antirius, and with the fearsome power of the Sunspear that the nomad worshipers of Kargzant apparently lacked.

The battle of Alavan Argay removed the horse warlords as a political and magical power in the Dara Happan lowlands, and Khordavu could ascend to Emperorship using a more involved form of the rites. Some of that was new, like replacing some of the ancient regalia, some of it was old.

Then came the Sunstop, and of course, that showed a yet more powerful form of the Sun. Which made even the emperors of the Khordavu dynasty acknowledge that there was more to their sun god than Avivath and Khordavu were able to give.

 

35 minutes ago, Mirza said:

Some of the people here have speculated that "Yelm" was previously an office to be held by the pre-eminent Sky Diety of that time, with various gods we know as "Yelm" such as Arraz (Perhaps the first Yelm), Ourania, Polestar (I think), and Murharazam (as the one Orlanth kills). There might be more that people have said, those are just the ones I remember hearing speculation about off the top of my head.

That's the multiple (stationary) orbs theory, nicely depicted in the Copper Tablets in the Guide.

 

35 minutes ago, Mirza said:

So Khordavu wasn't purely cynical when he worked with Plentonius to "resurrect" the cult of Yelm, sure there was some cynicism in that it allowed Khordavu to achieve the greatest personal power, but it seems clear to some extent that Khordavu believed in the One Sun.

There is also another small accompanying theory that goes along with this one, that during the Sunstop one of the Unity Councillors a descendant of Khordavu, the Emperor Khorzanelm imposed the truth of Yelm on the Sun, and that was the true moment of (re)birth for Yelm from an outsiders perspective.

The next universally observable celestial event was the rise of the Red Moon. Which may have been a modified rise of Entekos... hence the Entekosiad. It hasn't yet altered the power of the Sun, except politically.

 

[None]

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

There is a theory in the forums here that Khordavu didn't actually resurrect Yelm's true worship, and that it was more a wholesale invention somewhat similar to Sedenya from various "Little Sun" myths and fragments.

This reminds me. Wasn't there a 'Every man, a Sun' movement in Dara Happa at some point?

[Mirza]

8 minutes ago, None said:

This reminds me. Wasn't there a 'Every man, a Sun' movement in Dara Happa at some point?

That phrase was a rallying cry by the followers of Karvanyar to reject the Sun Dragon that ruled Dara Happa for a time, leading to Karvanyar slaying the Sun Dragon, and freeing it from EWF control with himself as Emperor.

As you could probably tell the principle behind it is that the people of Dara Happa don't need a dragon to tell them how to live their lives since all people had the light of life within themselves. According to the Guide it seems to be Nysalorean in origin, but I always take that label with a fistful of salt.

[None]

Thanks (I'm suddenly a bit busy now so I can't say more, maybe later if I find out I do have somethignto say).

[Joerg]

Ah, yes, how could I forget the EWF dragon sun finally getting the Sun right and complete? Poor benighted Karvanyar dragged the empire back to its squalor, though.

[None]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ah, yes, how could I forget the EWF dragon sun finally getting the Sun right and complete? Poor benighted Karvanyar dragged the empire back to its squalor, though.

How do you mean?

[Eff]

29 minutes ago, None said:

How do you mean?

It's a joke. The Dara Happans insist that the Dragon Sun was an abomination that tricked its way into becoming Emperor, and Karvanyar liberated them from its tyranny. Meanwhile, we know that the Dragon Sun was one of the few EWF-associated people to complete their draconic ascensions and become True Dragons, since they reappeared at the Dragonkill after Karvanyar "killed" them and currently hang around Prax. 

It's also oddly reminiscent of Orlanthi efforts to explain away the EWF by saying Orlanth was beguiled by Arangorf the Inner Dragon. (Of course, there may be a deeper truth here associated with the Aroka and Sh'hakarzeel myths...)

[None]

10 minutes ago, Eff said:

It's a joke. The Dara Happans insist that the Dragon Sun was an abomination that tricked its way into becoming Emperor, and Karvanyar liberated them from its tyranny. Meanwhile, we know that the Dragon Sun was one of the few EWF-associated people to complete their draconic ascensions and become True Dragons, since they reappeared at the Dragonkill after Karvanyar "killed" them and currently hang around Prax. 

It's also oddly reminiscent of Orlanthi efforts to explain away the EWF by saying Orlanth was beguiled by Arangorf the Inner Dragon. (Of course, there may be a deeper truth here associated with the Aroka and Sh'hakarzeel myths...)

I see. So why didn't they like the Dragon Sun?

[Eff]

52 minutes ago, None said:

I see. So why didn't they like the Dragon Sun?

Well, The Fortunate Succession is of course somewhat vague. It notes that, after a long period of time wherein draconism had been growing more powerful in Dara Happa under the Golden Dragon Society, the Emperor Dismanthuyar was enthroned, and at his enthronement, Sunspears destroyed "the dragons who were trying to intervene", following which the EWF sends armies north, accompanied by Dragonewt colonizing efforts. Dismanthuyar then sends his son Urvanyar to face the EWF armies. The Dara Happans claim that all three of the battles were pyrrhic and that each side lost a third of its army (Urvanyar dying in the second battle) until only the Dragon Sun was left. The Dragon Sun then allowed Dismanthuyar to be cremated in full honor after he was dragged out of Yuthuppa.

Then in the section for Karvanyar's reign, it's noted that the Dragon Sun stole Urvanyar's "heart and eyes", but that the rest of him gave birth to Karvanyar. 

The Dragon Sun themself is described as "not an emperor" though passing all Ten Tests and wearing the regalia properly. They were apparently so popular they brought about a significant amount of conversion to solar draconism, and had so much raw power nobody even tried to rebel until Karvanyar. And then Karvanyar's dynasty spends about a century first overthrowing EWF rule of Kostaddi and Saird, and then purging foreign influences from Dara Happa and promoting the "Yelm Is Not" movement. 

I think the most likely explanation is that Dismanthuyar ordered the murder of a number of Golden Dragon Society members at his enthronement, which prompted an EWF response. However, his son Urvanyar was secretly a Golden Dragon and had a draconic awakening when fighting the EWF or the DH armies. When he did so, he became the Dragon Sun and returned north and assumed the throne properly, passing all Ten Tests and bringing about 30 years of fairly peaceful rule, following which a Hero from the lower classes of Dara Happan society emerges and assassinates him at a wedding. 

His body appears to have been visibly draconic, since they note that the Dragon Sun has the same "heart and eyes" that Urvanyar does but also that he doesn't have hands or genitals, which suggest there's some scales going on but his Antirius Portion and Warmth Portion are identical. After Karvanyar ascends to the throne, he or some later Emperor spreads the story that his father was Urvanyar and the Dragon Sun stole Urvanyar's parts to impersonate him. 

[Joerg]

57 minutes ago, None said:

I see. So why didn't they like the Dragon Sun?

It came and killed their previous emperor, then took the heart and eyes of his son (Karvanyar's father).

1 hour ago, Eff said:

It's a joke.

You're doing a great job of confirming my teasings, here, and of course this was written as a tease.

1 hour ago, Eff said:

The Dara Happans insist that the Dragon Sun was an abomination that tricked its way into becoming Emperor, and Karvanyar liberated them from its tyranny. Meanwhile, we know that the Dragon Sun was one of the few EWF-associated people to complete their draconic ascensions and become True Dragons, since they reappeared at the Dragonkill after Karvanyar "killed" them and currently hang around Prax. 

But actually, it is only half a joke, at most.

There is a reason why the Solar Emperor in Gods War is represented by a humanoid dragon miniature. The ancient Dara Happan empire thrived on gazzam aka dinosaurs as its herds, too.

Yelm (or Murharzarm) sits on a dragon throne on the Gods Wall. The Dara Happans have a name for that entity, Kelastan, formerly Burburstus, the Dark Dragon.

When Orlanth (in his initiation myth) releases all the imprisoned foreigner gods, he sort of opens Yelm's box of worries, where he had imprisoned all those who he had usurped before. (As such, it was fitting that Orlanth was thrown into this august company...) Among these were Natha, the Red And Black avenger goddess of Pelanda, and a dragon.

 

Another source for a draconic nature of the sun might be the Zzaburite or God Learner systematic of the Beasts, in Anaxial's Roster (p.207). It has Zoamalos, "the Perfect Beast that can be seen in all its glory if you go past the Sun" descending into Somalos the Sun, which in turn created the duality of Hykim and Mikyh below. Now Hykim and Mikyh are well attested as draconic entities. If that is the case, then wouldn't the entities from which they came be draconic (or bestial) in nature, too?

According to Plentonius, Yelm claims the conquest of Buburstus. I see that as one of several conquests of previous or rival suns.

 

The Kralori are the only extant group assigning draconic status to the sun emperor of the world. Its successor Metsyla only has Phoenix status.

34 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, The Fortunate Succession is of course somewhat vague.

A nice way to say that it reeks of rampant revisionist history. The reign of Dismanthuyar is described with avoidance of all facts but that the Dara Happans were unable to stop the EWF invaders at three battles.

Dara Happa stirs - the one Glorantha the Second Age product that has the unmitigated oversight and approval of Greg and Jeff - gives what can might seen as the best factual description of the history of the Dragon Sun in Dara Happa.

34 minutes ago, Eff said:

It notes that, after a long period of time wherein draconism had been growing more powerful in Dara Happa under the Golden Dragon Society, the Emperor Dismanthuyar was enthroned, and at his enthronement, Sunspears destroyed "the dragons who were trying to intervene", following which the EWF sends armies north, accompanied by Dragonewt colonizing efforts. Dismanthuyar then sends his son Urvanyar to face the EWF armies. The Dara Happans claim that all three of the battles were pyrrhic and that each side lost a third of its army (Urvanyar dying in the second battle) until only the Dragon Sun was left. The Dragon Sun then allowed Dismanthuyar to be cremated in full honor after he was dragged out of Yuthuppa.

Then in the section for Karvanyar's reign, it's noted that the Dragon Sun stole Urvanyar's "heart and eyes", but that the rest of him gave birth to Karvanyar. 

The Dragon Sun themself is described as "not an emperor" though passing all Ten Tests and wearing the regalia properly. They were apparently so popular they brought about a significant amount of conversion to solar draconism, and had so much raw power nobody even tried to rebel until Karvanyar. And then Karvanyar's dynasty spends about a century first overthrowing EWF rule of Kostaddi and Saird, and then purging foreign influences from Dara Happa and promoting the "Yelm Is Not" movement. 

I think the most likely explanation is that Dismanthuyar ordered the murder of a number of Golden Dragon Society members at his enthronement, which prompted an EWF response. However, his son Urvanyar was secretly a Golden Dragon and had a draconic awakening when fighting the EWF or the DH armies. When he did so, he became the Dragon Sun and returned north and assumed the throne properly, passing all Ten Tests and bringing about 30 years of fairly peaceful rule, following which a Hero from the lower classes of Dara Happan society emerges and assassinates him at a wedding. 

The EWF has a name for the Dragon Sun mystic already at the time of Elmexdros, and it was this EWF mystic who ascended the ziggurat of Raibanth after defeating the increasingly anti-draconic emperors succeeding Elmexdros. Hurabargarten is the spelling used in Dara Happa Stirs, which is probably close to the original spelling. Lorenkarten the mile (later also known as Labrygon) has been spelled Lorenkargartan, IIRC in context with the Kotor Wars in History of the Heortling Peoples which published the first part of the EWF philosophy papers Greg had prepared for the Second Age licensees.

(Of course, it may just be that I feel defensive for people with the component "gartn" in their names...)

Still, I feel that the story of Urvanyar the blinded wannabe-emperor is genuine. If your assumption is correct, then this wretched creature which begat Karvanyar may have been the residual spite of the Dara Happan emperors that got shed by the transformed dragon emperor.

The Heart of Urvanyar and his eyes may have held magic that qualified the Dragon Sun's ascension:

34 minutes ago, Eff said:

His body appears to have been visibly draconic, since they note that the Dragon Sun has the same "heart and eyes" that Urvanyar does but also that he doesn't have hands or genitals, which suggest there's some scales going on but his Antirius Portion and Warmth Portion are identical. After Karvanyar ascends to the throne, he or some later Emperor spreads the story that his father was Urvanyar and the Dragon Sun stole Urvanyar's parts to impersonate him. 

Dara Happan revisionist history certainly has muddled the sources, and EWF sources don't give reliable names and identifications according to History of the Heortling Peoples, which provides the name on p.49 as Hurarbargartan the Great Consumer but doesn't identify him as the Dragon Sun. (Heortling Mythology repeats the same text on p.139 but sheds light on the more orthodox EWF method used by Ingolf, compared to the other New Dragon's Ring leaders.)