How did the Sun Dome in Sartar do during Lunar occupation?

[buckwheats]

Hello.

Is there any official information about how the Sun Dome in Sartar stood politically during the Lunar occupation of Sartar? Were they neutral, did their troops fight abroad or did they even lend a hand to the Lunars? Or were they themselves occupied or cowed into submission („stand aside or else“). Sun-Worshipers and Storm-Worshipers don’t get along too well as it is, but post 1625 those differences could spike.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

P.S.: Sorry that this post was added to the "Group Read". I tried to transfer it to the main Glorantha-forum, alas was unable to.

Edited December 5, 2019 by buckwheats

[metcalph]

The best information is in Wyrms Footnotes #15.  The Count remained independent but was friends of Fazzur and his (paid) hoplites helped out in the conquest of Heortland.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, buckwheats said:

Were they neutral, did their troops fight abroad or did they even lend a hand to the Lunars? Or were they themselves occupied or cowed into submission („stand aside or else“).

They were close allies of Prince Tarkalor. However, after the Boldhome campaign they seem to have maintained independence. 

As Peter noted above, they were hired as mercenaries to aid the Lunar conquest of Heortland.  Although no longer canon, the Orlanth is Dead supplement showed them at the Battle of Aurochs Hills where they switched sides when the Lunars invoked Chaos.

Likely the Count of the Sun Dome was at and eaten during the Dragonrise, leaving a power vacuum in the temple at the start of our time period.

[g33k]

7 hours ago, buckwheats said:

P.S.: Sorry that this post was added to the "Group Read". I tried to transfer it to the main Glorantha-forum, alas was unable to.

Ain't the staff here just wunnerful peeps?   😁

[David Scott]

The wonderful The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass says:

Quote

Rurik is said to have brokered the secret agreement that saw the Sun Dome Templars desert their Lunar allies at the Second Battle of Moonbroth in 1624.

[,,,]

In 1627 Rurik was instated as the new Count of Vanntar.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/296535/The-Armies-and-Enemies-of-Dragon-Pass

[EricW]

In “Orlanth is Dead” sundomers support the Lunars during the battle of Iceland, but turn on the Lunars after the Lunars break their agreement and unleash chaos.

Thiw implies they provide support but have significant independence- they don’t see themselves as subjugated Lunar vassals.

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, EricW said:

In “Orlanth is Dead” sundomers support the Lunars during the battle of Iceland, but turn on the Lunars after the Lunars break their agreement and unleash chaos.

Thiw implies they provide support but have significant independence- they don’t see themselves as subjugated Lunar vassals.

I seem to recall River of Cradles or Shadows on the Borderland (?) made the Count seem a little weasel-like on this note. Or was I reading with an Orlanthi slant? No spoilers here. You know the orlanthi settlers in the area feel this way. Biturian wrote the Count this way in his journal, independent yes, perhaps pridefully  so, all while being a little obsequious, oily around lunars.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

44 minutes ago, EricW said:

they don’t see themselves as subjugated Lunar vassals.

The Sun Domers everywhere have a history of stubbornly refusing to join the Empire. They joined - was it Jannisor's Rebellion? Well, it got put down, but no matter, they just slipped the leash again. They're feisty, they demand to be contractors, not part of the Empire.

It's not just politics, either: Monro the Lantern had a prophecy in the early Seventh Wane and suddenly we've got a new religious movement; Prax held out the longest but they finally joined the "Yelmalio is relit" train.

31 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

all while being a little obsequious, oily

isn't this just ... being a mid-level noble? or was it extra

Edited December 7, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

 

isn't this just ... being a mid-level noble? or was it extra

 

Well none of it is objective at all The chroniclers I am aware of are young and inexperienced. In Biturian's case I think an orlanthi Bias was present, I just remembered the other chronicler of the Zola Fel civilizations in the early 1600s  and that was Jaxarte Whyded, I can not recall his attitude but as he was a young naive lunar of wealthy family (the -Eels?) on his first (way out of his league) assignment, I seem to recall a bit of a starry-eyed view. His arc is an interesting one. I do know were to find him luckily .... RQ3s Sun County and many places on the ’net and of course the legendary Biturian Varosh is from CoP (same).

Cheers

[JonL]

I don't know that Biturian's bias is Orlanthi as much as it is, "These assholes kidnapped me to make me fight to the death in a ritual out of spite because one of them was angry about having  to  leave his wife." 

That does make something of a bad impression. 

(Also, Elmal forever.)

[Bill the barbarian]

22 minutes ago, JonL said:

I don't know that Biturian's bias is Orlanthi as much as it is, "These assholes kidnapped me to make me fight to the death in a ritual out of spite because one of them was angry about having  to  leave his wife." 

That seems a but unfair and biased no?

but thanks that is probably closer the reality

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

From the Solar perspective, Orlanth "stole" Yelm's wife, which is mythically why the "asshole" had to give up his wife.  His anger at Orlanthi seems well justified.  

I think the truth is slightly more complicated.  For starters, five priests getting divorced in one year seems highly unlikely to take place in a County that only has 19,000 people.

So what me, MOB and others worked out many years ago was this:

1.  An important person in Sun County had to get a divorce for political reasons but wanted to avoid offending the clan of his wife (cf Henry VIII and Vatherine of Aragon - the Pope could grant an annullment but the queen was the King of Sapin's Auntie and the very same King had archers "guarding" the Pope).

2.  A clever priest came up with the rational that a divorce was mandatory because the wife was an earth priestess, and Orlanth stole Yelmalio's wife.  etc.  

3.  The divorce goes through and a number of other divorces take place as unscrupulous priests take adventage of the newly invented no-fault divorce,

4.  Then people hit upon the idea of using the divorce to target a pretty obnoxious polygamous priest who is married to two earth priestesses.  They've hated him for years and now they have a chance to take him down a peg.

5.  The polygamous priest is pretty much okay with this as he has a third wife (an Ulerian priestess I'd think) whom he's not required to divorce.  The two wives that he must divorce are pretty much happy to be out of his household ever since he started ignoring them for his third wife.

6.  This clever plan unfortunately snares another priest who is long and happily married to an earth priestess.  But he's the only other priest in the county who is married to an earth priestess.  He doesn't want to divorce but he is being forced to otherwise the polygamous priest won't go through with his divorce.

7.  So he's very angry.  He can't be angry at the people who are making him go through with the divorce because they are only following myth (supposedly).  So he plans to vent his anger by killing Bituarian..

[Bill the barbarian]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think the truth is slightly more complicated.  For starters, five priests getting divorced in one year seems highly unlikely to take place in a County that only has 19,000 people.

As it so often the case when one tries to simplify in Glorantha, Thanks for the great behind-the-scenes!

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The Sun Domers everywhere have a history of stubbornly refusing to join the Empire. They joined - was it Jannisor's Rebellion? Well, it got put down, but no matter, they just slipped the leash again. They're feisty, they demand to be contractors, not part of the Empire.

The Goldedge Temple provides a part of the Tarshite regulars. Not all temples escape these stronger ties to kingdom or empire.

 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Was Biturian's fight really "to the death"?  He described one of the Yelmalians as withdrawing after doing the minimum necessary.

Yes, Biturian's fight was to the death. It took his allied spirit's DI to keep him alive. And of course his opponent did bite it in the end.

The other participant who did just the minimum necessary may have been accepting of his divorce, if we assume that this rite was required for the five years after divorce anyway.

I am a bit puzzled by the description of that rite, anyway - "five men and women in a circle" - two men and three wives, or five Light Servants who were ordained five years earlier and had to undergo this rite whether they were accepting the divorce or not?

 

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

From the Solar perspective, Orlanth "stole" Yelm's wife, which is mythically why the "asshole" had to give up his wife.  His anger at Orlanthi seems well justified.  

The mythic precedence given in the cult description was that Umath caused a coitus interruptus for his parents Aether and Gata.

There is a suspicious absence about any marriage of Yelmalio to Ernalda, although we have Elmal's marriage to Redalda, her horse-loving daughter. But that myth appears to be verboten for the Praxian Sun Domers. In Saird, it might be common.

[Bill the barbarian]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The mythic precedence given in the cult description was that Umath caused a coitus interruptus for his parents Aether and Gata.

 

I suppose ripping ones parents asunder whilst they were engaged in flagrante delicto might be considered coitus interruptus at the very least. Bad manners in some places for sure. a feud starter? Only for the thin skinned surely. 

[Joerg]

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@Joerg Just because somebody happened to die does not mean it was a fight "to the death".

I agree it was a very serious fight, not mere "first blood", certainly till somebody was at least F.I.ed.

The same Yelmalian that finally bit it cut down or hacked apart two victims before turning his attention to Biturian. I don't think those two "happened to die". Biturian returned from the doorstep of death by the sacrifice of his ally windwhistler.

But he may just have been a little over-enthusiastic in a friendly bout?

 

A Yelmalian using a fire elemental? Yes, the cult description n Cult of Prax gives Light Priests access to small and medium salamanders. I'm baffled.

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The Sun Domers everywhere have a history of stubbornly refusing to join the Empire. They joined - was it Jannisor's Rebellion? Well, it got put down, but no matter, they just slipped the leash again. They're feisty, they demand to be contractors, not part of the Empire.

The Lunars are fine with that.

They can hire the Sun Domers out, as they accept Lunar gold.

At the end of the day, they can send some Yelm Imperator nobles to the Sun Domers and make them kneel, if they need to.

In my last Gloranthan Campaign, the Red Emperor visited the Praxian sun County and made a big show of displaying his "I am Emperor! I am Yelm" credentials to bully them into submission.

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

It's not just politics, either: Monro the Lantern had a prophecy in the early Seventh Wane and suddenly we've got a new religious movement; Prax held out the longest but they finally joined the "Yelmalio is relit" train.

That split them from Elmal, where Elmal was strong. They have always been pro-Solar, because they are part of the Solar Pantheon. Dara Happa is at the top of that structure and sun Domers know this, accept it and also, to a certain extent resent it. Count Solanthos has a habit of duelling Dara Happan Nobles, i.e. Yelm Cultists, to the death, probably for the same reason.

 

[M Helsdon]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Goldedge Temple provides a part of the Tarshite regulars. Not all temples escape these stronger ties to kingdom or empire.

 

Several Yelmalion temples provide a pike-phalanx regiment to Provincial Kings in lieu of paying tax, etc.

Interestingly, whilst there seems to be a Yelmalion pike-phalanx in the Sylilan Satrapy Army (for much the same reason) there are none in the Lunar Army.