What is a "Shaman"?

[davecake]

5 hours ago, Jusmak said:

Creating Uz character, profession Shaman. Does this profession really mean real shaman, with fetch or more like assistant shaman after all?

It starts as an assistant shaman, but if they become a shaman they continue to use the same profession. To become a shaman, you play out the shamanic initiation as described in the shaman chapter (or the equivalent for your shamanic tradition). 

5 hours ago, Jusmak said:

At creation he gets 5 points spirit magic, but on spirit magic chapter it says: " a shaman can have any spell he wants." That sounds a bit dull way to develop a character.

Well, that’s one of the big bonuses of shamanism. And we don’t want to mess around with fighting spirits etc in character creation, plenty of time for that afterwards. What really happens is their shaman master arranges all that for them. 

5 hours ago, Jusmak said:

As he anyway has skills like spirit travel, spirit dance, spirit combat he can have his adventures in spirit world, and have his way to find spells he want.

An apprentice shaman can not enter the spirit world easily on their own, usually they rely on their master to help them (there are various methods to teach). They probably are not able to travel long distances in the spirit world, and it wouldn’t be safe for them to do that. They may know places in the mundane world where some spirits can be contacted though, but their choices will be limited. 

[Jusmak]

Ok, so as assistant shaman, then. It could be stated a bit more clearly at profession description.

He could maybe contact to cult spirits of Kyger Litor, and train a bit his shaman skills safely inside temple? Kyger Litor is shamanic/priestly tradition. First spirit travels maybe only to outer sphere of spirit world.

I think shamanic traditions vary a lot in general, and what uz tradition would be like... I think shamanism is that heavily present, that one shaman has several students. Students may form a trance circle and enter spirits world together as a group under shaman supervision. It will take quite time to be ready for initiation, and some may never "graduate", those either remain as assistants or change profession.

[dumuzid]

There's two basic forms of troll shamanism. Korasting tradition focuses on ancestor worship and is analogous to the Daka Fal tradition among humans (Daka Fal is acknowledged among trolls as their common ancestor with humans and the other races, but Korasting is a more immediate ancestor-guide for trolls, being something like Kyger Litor's fetch).  Dehore tradition focuses on interacting with Darkness spirits, including elementals, which may be troll ancestors but are not always so, and would be analogous to Kolati shamanic tradition in Orlanthi society.  A male troll shaman might be more inclined towards Dehori practice; or rather, a male troll with shamanic inclinations will probably be directed towards a Dehore teacher by their clan queen, since the KL/Korasting shaman-priestess track is usually reserved for females.

[dumuzid]

That opens the question of what theistic cults a Dehore shaman would be likely to join, since afaik Dehore is not usually worshipped himself except as a spirit cult.  I'd say the best god-cult for a Dehore shaman would be the god of whatever kind of darkness they tend to draw their spirit allies from: Argan Argar for Dehore shamans who deal primarily with surface darkness, Subere for those who specialize in dealing with the things of deep, perfect darkness.

[Gallowglass]

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

There's two basic forms of troll shamanism. Korasting tradition focuses on ancestor worship and is analogous to the Daka Fal tradition among humans (Daka Fal is acknowledged among trolls as their common ancestor with humans and the other races, but Korasting is a more immediate ancestor-guide for trolls, being something like Kyger Litor's fetch).  Dehore tradition focuses on interacting with Darkness spirits, including elementals, which may be troll ancestors but are not always so, and would be analogous to Kolati shamanic tradition in Orlanthi society.  A male troll shaman might be more inclined towards Dehori practice; or rather, a male troll with shamanic inclinations will probably be directed towards a Dehore teacher by their clan queen, since the KL/Korasting shaman-priestess track is usually reserved for females.

Where does Jakaboom fit into all these different practices? I thought she was the original troll shaman. Maybe her cult is like a “graduate level” spirit society for those already initiated into other cults?

[dumuzid]

2 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

Where does Jakaboom fit into all these different practices? I thought she was the original troll shaman. Maybe her cult is like a “graduate level” spirit society for those already initiated into other cults?

I needed to look this up but that...is exactly what they are, as it happens.  Here's the relevant text from the write-up for Jakaboom's cult in Unspoken Word #4: Trolls of Glorantha, (Heroquest rules, not Runequest)

So, yes.  Jakaboom was the troll who first discovered the Dehore tradition, and probably refined the Korasting tradition too.  Trolls who are already full shamans initiate into her cult to learn the 'graduate-level' troll shamanism secrets, including the deep songs of power.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

A male troll shaman might be more inclined towards Dehori practice; or rather, a male troll with shamanic inclinations will probably be directed towards a Dehore teacher by their clan queen, since the KL/Korasting shaman-priestess track is usually reserved for females

Just a thought - perhaps when following the KL/Korasting path, one of the first "gifts" received at successful shaman initiation is a gender change... 

[dumuzid]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

Just a thought - perhaps when following the KL/Korasting path, one of the first "gifts" received at successful shaman initiation is a gender change... 

Entirely likely.  I would not be surprised if there's a point in a successful male troll's ascent in the KL hierarchy where they have to make a choice between joining the Karrg's Sons or transitioning gender to fully embrace KL's mysteries.  Presumably that magic is attended by a representative of Jeset, the ferrytroll of the underworld, to facilitate the change.

[Shiningbrow]

4 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Entirely likely.  I would not be surprised if there's a point in a successful male troll's ascent in the KL hierarchy where they have to make a choice between joining the Karrg's Sons or transitioning gender to fully embrace KL's mysteries.  Presumably that magic is attended by a representative of Jeset, the ferrytroll of the underworld, to facilitate the change.

I just checked the Bestiary... Karrg's Son sub-cult doesn't actually specify you have to be male! So... Both?

[dumuzid]

That's an excellent point.  Strictly speaking, there's no gender restrictions on the Babeester Gor or Maran Gor cult writeups in RQ:G either, and frankly I think less hard and fast gender restrictions on cults is a good thing.  Karrg's sons's specialize in being warrior leaders, trolls who lead the clan's warrior's beyond the settlement.  Vaneekara is the patroness of female troll warriors generally but her specialization is throwing weapons and slings, she's the goddess as skirmishers.  Both Karrg and Vaneekara are usually subcults of Kyger Litor rather than independent cults, and presumably KL initiates would gravitate towards whichever ancestral warrior model best suited their aptitudes.

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

That's an excellent point.  Strictly speaking, there's no gender restrictions on the Babeester Gor or Maran Gor cult writeups in RQ:G either, and frankly I think less hard and fast gender restrictions on cults is a good thing.  Karrg's sons's specialize in being warrior leaders, trolls who lead the clan's warrior's beyond the settlement.

In general I've always thought that Uz would have very strict gender roles. Breeding, and breeding true, is everything. If you can produce healthy offspring, then you are far too valuable to risk physical harm. If a female Uzko is no longer breeding true, there is probably a place for her as a warrior. I would not make an issue of it in a game though, if a player has an idea for a character then I am reluctant to say no.

9 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Vaneekara is the patroness of female troll warriors generally but her specialization is throwing weapons and slings, she's the goddess as skirmishers.  Both Karrg and Vaneekara are usually subcults of Kyger Litor rather than independent cults, and presumably KL initiates would gravitate towards whichever ancestral warrior model best suited their aptitudes.

Interesting, I'd never heard of Vaneekara before.

[Shiningbrow]

15 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

That's an excellent point.  Strictly speaking, there's no gender restrictions on the Babeester Gor or Maran Gor cult writeups in RQ:G either, and frankly I think less hard and fast gender restrictions on cults is a good thing.  Karrg's sons's specialize in being warrior leaders, trolls who lead the clan's warrior's beyond the settlement.  Vaneekara is the patroness of female troll warriors generally but her specialization is throwing weapons and slings, she's the goddess as skirmishers.  Both Karrg and Vaneekara are usually subcults of Kyger Litor rather than independent cults, and presumably KL initiates would gravitate towards whichever ancestral warrior model best suited their aptitudes.

Sorry - Babeester Gor:

"Requirements: Standard. Only women can join."

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sorry - Babeester Gor:

"Requirements: Standard. Only women can join."

Maran Gor requires you to castrate yourself, so uh,

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Where does Jakaboom fit into all these different practices? I thought she was the original troll shaman. Maybe her cult is like a “graduate level” spirit society for those already initiated into other cults?

I don't think there's a an organised cult. Jakaboom is a Greater Entity in RQG (page 359), where shaman can get new abilities from, so is direct source of shamanic power. in RQQ3's troll Pack you can get a single rune spell. So likely acts like a spirit cult / associate cult.

[Austin]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Maran Gor requires you to castrate yourself, so uh,

Small price to pay to apocalypse a city.

I do literally have a player whose prior adventurer cut off his genitals for magic.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Crel

[davecake]

The Kygor Litor tradition is a hybrid one. You have to become a priestess first, then a shaman. They are restricted in their shamanic abilities - they must always bind only darkness spirits to their fetch, though this includes spirits of dead trolls. 
 

 

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Maran Gor requires you to castrate yourself, so uh,

I was going to quote that, but then... Meh. 

Besides, that's only for God Talker... Which is perhaps slightly better than Ernalda, which won't allow males at all at higher status.

[Thaz]

19 hours ago, dumuzid said:

That's an excellent point.  Strictly speaking, there's no gender restrictions on the Babeester Gor or Maran Gor cult writeups in RQ:G either,

 

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Besides, that's only for God Talker... Which is perhaps slightly better than Ernalda, which won't allow males at all at higher status.

The forthcoming cults book may be more explicit but the RQG book merely states a male god talker of MG remain celibate rather than requiring castration.  (As indeed a Priestess must also remain celibate.)   

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, Thaz said:

 

The forthcoming cults book may be more explicit but the RQG book merely states a male god talker of MG remain celibate rather than requiring castration.  (As indeed a Priestess must also remain celibate.)   

Perhaps your edition is different...

 

God-talker

Requirements: As per Rune Priestess (below), except that males may become God-talkers, but must be eunuchs.

Notes: Female God-talkers of Maran Gor need not be celibate, but may not be married.  

 

(my emphasis)

[Thaz]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps your edition is different...

God-talker

Requirements: As per Rune Priestess (below), except that males may become God-talkers, but must be eunuchs.

(my emphasis)

Interesting. Checking my PDF then yes I agree with you. However I am sure I read celibate, maybe in one of my hard copies (I have both printings). I'll check when I get home. Edit :- Also the Priestess requirement reads differently to how I recall. I _think_ I was using my 1st printing hard copy but I will check tonight 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Thaz

[PhilHibbs]

Babs:

Maran:

I don't see any differences between editions, just between God Talker and Rune Priestess.

Edited March 10, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Babs:

Maran:

I don't see any differences between editions, just between God Talker and Rune Priestess.

if i were a man that committed to Maran Gor, I'd likely just ... become female? Just as an aside

[PhilHibbs]

44 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

if i were a man that committed to Maran Gor, I'd likely just ... become female? Just as an aside

Whilst there are no specific magics detailed for changing sex, I'm sure there are plenty of ways to do it if the player and GM are up for playing out that journey.

[Dragon]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Whilst there are no specific magics detailed for changing sex, I'm sure there are plenty of ways to do it if the player and GM are up for playing out that journey.

In prior versions, Mee Vorala worshippers, i.e. black (fungus) elves, could mix potions that changed your gender. There was a small chance you became asexual or hermaphrodite. The black elves sold them to other humanoids.

[PhilHibbs]

There'll be a Eurmal "Become Female" spell, which combined with Extension might do the trick. Or maybe not, if you go by the strict "It's not stackable therefore no Extension" rule. The priestess test probably takes longer than 15 minutes.