What is a "Shaman"?

[davecake]

I think that spontaneous/unassisted shamanic awakening is very rare, a Hero thing. 
and if your cult forbids being a shaman, then on becoming a shaman you normally lose cult status, just as if you broke a geas.

The loophole is, as always, Illumination. You can ignore the rule like other cult rules - as long as no one decides it’s suspicious. Which may explain a lot of Argrath related tricks. 

But that for hero types, there are other possibilities. Non-shamanic heroes accumulate POW on the spirit plane, but access it differently. And note the idea of a Kaelith from the Xeotam dialogues - a hero who returns from the underworld can come back with the power to change shape, or to discorporate. 

[EricW]

I kind of think of a shaman as being like someone walking around with their mobile phone in their hand all day - holding conversations with people you can't see, bumping into stuff because they're too busy looking at their phone, yet at the same time that phone provides all sorts of useful information they wouldn't have if they weren't staring at it. Maybe they'll dial up a rain shower to water the crops.

[Bill the barbarian]

20 minutes ago, EricW said:

kind of think of a shaman as being like someone walking around with their mobile phone in their hand all day - holding conversations with people you can't see, bumping into stuff because they're too busy looking at their phone, yet at the same time that phone provides all sorts of useful information they wouldn't have if they weren't staring at it. Maybe they'll dial up a rain shower to water the crops.

Yep, I’ll buy that for a dollar. I think I bumped into a few shamans at the mall, yesterday.

[Zit]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

I kind of think of a shaman as being like someone walking around with their mobile phone in their hand all day - holding conversations with people you can't see, bumping into stuff because they're too busy looking at their phone, yet at the same time that phone provides all sorts of useful information they wouldn't have if they weren't staring at it. Maybe they'll dial up a rain shower to water the crops.

That's actually quite a good image. A shaman is someone who sees and can interact with what others don't. But even this has to be trained: as long as you don't control these visions, you're only mentally ill.

In many (most ? all ?) cultures, you also acknowledge as a shaman only once you have proven your abilities and your usefulness for your community. Sometimes even the paraphernalia is provided by the community. And the status may not be permanent and can be lost.

So, in very short, what makes a shaman are his special skills and his community (which includes his ancestors).

[PhilHibbs]

On 1/17/2020 at 11:35 PM, SDLeary said:

Besides, if you folks (Chaosium)  can present things witch seem to us to break the rules (see thread on Sorcery in Smoking Runes), then we certainly can until said rules come out, if we find it fits our narrative!

That freedom is made clear in the rules, of course.

[dumuzid]

I played a shaman's assistant who initiated into full shamanhood during play in a RQG campaign.  An Orlanthi who was initiated in to the Orlanth Adventurous cult, followed the Kolati spirit tradition, and towards the end he set up a spirit cult to an entity the players found in their travels.  His fetch was an alynx.

The big difference between assistants and full shamans is the degree of agency a shaman has in and versus the spirit world.  An assistant can fight spirits and negotiate with them to a limited degree, but a full shaman's ability to bind spirits to their person or possessions by sacrificing POW is a huge deal, and vastly increases the magical power a shaman can draw upon as they acquire more and more sworn or conquered spirits.  Always-on Spirit Sight, tremendous spirit combat damage, the ability to fully navigate and maneuver in the spirit world through lore and dances.  One of the old Stafford Library tomes, Arcane Lore, describes shamanism as a process of integration: integrating the shaman into the spirit world, integrating spirits into the shaman themselves, gaining power to manipulate the world by becoming more a part of it, by letting it become more a part of you, and that's borne out in the rules pretty powerfully from my (limited, anecdotal) experience.

All of which is just discussing the experience of the shaman themselves, without even touching the way the transition from assistant to the real deal changes how you relate to your society.

[Darius West]

On 1/16/2020 at 4:54 PM, Richard S. said:

Why should it be possible to awaken a Fetch without going through the education process? 

Well, logically someone must have been the first shaman; the "inventor" of Shamanism, if you will.  How could they do that without the education?  Remembering of course that Shamanism is one of the most primordial of magic systems.  Technically anyone who meets the appropriate initiatory experience can potentially become a Shaman. IRL, typically a Shaman was someone who survived a near fatal illness and brought back memories of the realm of death.  Consider the potential opportunity of playing a Westerner who accidentally initiates as a Shaman due to a brush with severe illness, or a run in with the Horned Man during sleep?

On 1/16/2020 at 4:38 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Orlanthi still sometimes have ancestor worship, and Kolati are shamans - so odd that there appears to be this ban for them.

Shamans are always liminal figures in theist societies.  They don't do things the way priests do them, and their practices hearken back to a more primitive time before agriculture and urbanism. Different practices always leads to uncomfortable questions. Shamans think that the gods are just big spirits, and they keep their power to themselves in a way that priests do not.  It should be noted that in Pent, where nomad shamans are the normal ritual practitioners, they still worship many of the Gods of the settled lands, but worship them in unique ways. I mean, Yelm will not allow you to worship him via shamanism, but Kargzant is more or less the same deity, and will allow such things.  Shamans are individualists and natural heroes.  Priests are more collectivist and give of themselves to the gods greatly for the good of their community. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Darius West

[Akhôrahil]

 

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Well, logically someone must have been the first shaman; the "inventor" of Shamanism, if you will. 

This is specifically what Horned Man is, isn't it?

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Shamans are always liminal figures in theist societies.  

Orlanthi "always", though. 🙂 Daka Fal shamanism and Kyger Litor mixed worship are examples of shamans in mainstream theistic society.

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is specifically what Horned Man is, isn't it?

Is Horned Man also Daka Fal? I'm unclear a little bit.

I don't mean in the obvious narrative of the Lightbringers, etc., I mean: do we think Horned Man is also Daka Fal? I kind of, uh, think it's possible.

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

Is Horned Man also Daka Fal? I'm unclear a little bit.

I don't mean in the obvious narrative of the Lightbringers, etc., I mean: do we think Horned Man is also Daka Fal? I kind of, uh, think it's possible.

My understanding is that he's not. The core myths don't seem very similar.

I'm going to have a Daka Fal shaman initiation in my campaign at some point, but I don't feel that it can be just a copy of the regular Horned Man initiation. I will probably run it as a heroquest of The Path of Daka Fal, with some thing of life mixed with death replacing the Bad Man (at same statline) at the end. Having to turn down becoming master of thunder and god of mirror polishing, getting killed by death, going to the underworld, returning from the underworld to help teach people to separate life from death, that kind of thing.

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well, logically someone must have been the first shaman; the "inventor" of Shamanism, if you will.  How could they do that without the education?

Heroquesting, that's how. You can do pretty much anything with a heroquest. In fact you could say that the Shamanic initiation is a heroquest, but as with all heroquests, trying to do it when you don't know anything about it is really dangerous. The usual way that people learn how to do it is from another shaman, but that's just the easiest way. Maybe the first shaman was just really lucky. Maybe it came to them in a dream. Is it possible to do it again, nowadays, without the help of another shaman? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it was possible when the worlds were closer together. Maybe you need to find a place where the barrier is weak.

[Akhôrahil]

Gods of Glorantha:

 

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, Darius West said:

IRL, typically a Shaman was someone who survived a near fatal illness and brought back memories of the realm of death.  Consider the potential opportunity of playing a Westerner who accidentally initiates as a Shaman due to a brush with severe illness, or a run in with the Horned Man during sleep?

Typically.

However, IRL, many individuals have just become interested in the idea, and have embarked upon a course of study. We could, but I'd rather not, get into the argument about how real that is... 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Typically.

However, IRL, many individuals have just become interested in the idea, and have embarked upon a course of study. We could, but I'd rather not, get into the argument about how real that is... 

i mean shamans are real

regardless of whether they are supernatural or not (I make no claim they have any powers), as a scholar of religion and anthropology I assure you, shamans have a real effect on the health of the community and the individuals within it

there's a ton of work on who in modern western societies about what exact roles shamans play in specific societies (there is no ur-shamanic role) and comparative analyses of how those roles are filled in industrial societies, particularly ones where shamans still exist as competition!

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Typically.

However, IRL, many individuals have just become interested in the idea, and have embarked upon a course of study. We could, but I'd rather not, get into the argument about how real that is... 

Look, accidentally initiating as a Shaman is never the same as becoming a developed practitioner.  Quite the opposite.  These naive shamans are likely to survive more by good luck than good management.  There is no substitute for belonging to an established Shamanic tradition.  A self-initiating shaman is a bit like a feral child being raised by animals, who are far more likely to eat the child than help it.  Humans survive by developing a culture, and training each other in it, and shamans are no exception.  I would happily argue that a spontaneous/self initiating shaman could benefit immensely by becoming a more experienced shaman's apprentice.  

The crux of my argument was that self-initiation is possible.  I didn't suggest it was all that desirable.  In fact back in RQ3 days, potentially anyone who accidentally fought the Bad Man could technically develop a fetch and thus become a Shaman.  On the other hand, having done so could be a huge liability, denying you access to cults, leaving you open to unwanted spirit attention, and leaving you under-informed about the spirit world you now have access to whether you like it or not.

On the other hand, imagine being a child of a Talar in the West who spontaneously initiates as a shaman...  That could be an interesting story.  Potentially a short one, but interesting.  

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i mean shamans are real

I am highly dubious that the fetch mechanics of RQ (any Chaosium edition) reflect all forms of shamanism in the real world.

 

Apparently they do so for Glorantha, though.

 

 

[Darius West]

On 1/21/2020 at 12:29 AM, EricW said:

I kind of think of a shaman as being like someone walking around with their mobile phone in their hand all day - holding conversations with people you can't see, bumping into stuff because they're too busy looking at their phone, yet at the same time that phone provides all sorts of useful information they wouldn't have if they weren't staring at it. Maybe they'll dial up a rain shower to water the crops.

Holding animated and apparently one-sided conversations with people who aren't there is pretty much what shamans seem to do to non-shamans I suspect.  Reminds me of Harran Horsetooth.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i mean shamans are real

regardless of whether they are supernatural or not (I make no claim they have any powers), as a scholar of religion and anthropology I assure you, shamans have a real effect on the health of the community and the individuals within it

there's a ton of work on who in modern western societies about what exact roles shamans play in specific societies (there is no ur-shamanic role) and comparative analyses of how those roles are filled in industrial societies, particularly ones where shamans still exist as competition!

Not what I meant by "real".

More - There's the argument that if you weren't born into it (or the right culture), then these online or weekend courses, workshops, etc don't make you a "real" shaman... 

Which I don't want to get into that argument.

 

I'm more than aware (through personal experience, mind you) of the realities of shamanism in the real world... (saying that being slightly ironic :p)

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Look, accidentally initiating as a Shaman is never the same as becoming a developed practitioner.  Quite the opposite.  These naive shamans are likely to survive more by good luck than good management.  There is no substitute for belonging to an established Shamanic tradition.  A self-initiating shaman is a bit like a feral child being raised by animals, who are far more likely to eat the child than help it.  Humans survive by developing a culture, and training each other in it, and shamans are no exception.  I would happily argue that a spontaneous/self initiating shaman could benefit immensely by becoming a more experienced shaman's apprentice.  

The crux of my argument was that self-initiation is possible.  I didn't suggest it was all that desirable.  In fact back in RQ3 days, potentially anyone who accidentally fought the Bad Man could technically develop a fetch and thus become a Shaman.  On the other hand, having done so could be a huge liability, denying you access to cults, leaving you open to unwanted spirit attention, and leaving you under-informed about the spirit world you now have access to whether you like it or not.

On the other hand, imagine being a child of a Talar in the West who spontaneously initiates as a shaman...  That could be an interesting story.  Potentially a short one, but interesting.  

I think that might depend on the spirits you meet.

Sure, being a student, then apprentice, is going to give you relevant skills taught 1-1, which significantly makes things easier... E.g. Spirit Travel, Spirit Dance, etc.

But, I suspect that some spirits out there could teach those skills to a self-initiated person.

If, as suggested above by @PhilHibbs that the standard initiation ceremony of gaining a fetch, as per RQG rules is in fact a form of HQ, then it makes sense that the skills could also be given the same way.

 

What's actually missing is the traditions and lines of known spirits of a clan. Effectively, known helper spirits (including - especially?? - ancestors).

 

Your central paragraph about self-initiation and possible consequences is part of the reason I started this thread... At what point has that initiation said to have occurred to the extent it had an impact outside of oneself?

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

More - There's the argument that if you weren't born into it (or the right culture), then these online or weekend courses, workshops, etc don't make you a "real" shaman...

Ah, yes, plastic shamanism, gotcha

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:29 PM, EricW said:

I kind of think of a shaman as being like someone walking around with their mobile phone in their hand all day - holding conversations with people you can't see, bumping into stuff because they're too busy looking at their phone, yet at the same time that phone provides all sorts of useful information they wouldn't have if they weren't staring at it. Maybe they'll dial up a rain shower to water the crops.

Hi

After much reflection, I have an other view than yours.

Quote

While discorporate, the shaman can sense other spirits and sources of POW at a range of roughly 10 meters per point of POW. Within a range of 1 meter per point of POW, the shaman can sense the POW of entities to within 10 points, 5 points above or below their own. At that range, the shaman can also sense Runic affinities over 50% and the adventurer can also communicate with the spirit using Spiritspeech.

I understand it as without discorporate, the mobile phone is the "first model", you can only receive call from your fetch or something like that. You have just the second sight power. Not the smartphone with a big choice of apps. The smartphone is only in the other side, when you discorporate.

I see a shaman in the mundane world like almost any one. The shaman has some powers, few are always active, and these always active are not so weird.  Of course if you see the shaman in trance, it is another story. Of course a insane shaman may be different from insane average person (speaking spirit language, hallucinating with some memories unknown from people because not in mundane world, etc...)

but the good shaman seems to me to be just "normal" as human / uz / ...

after that there are two things :

the job : there are shamans like priests, working for their community. But can a shaman (aka with the powers) do something else than working for a community ? after all, becoming a priest is  be chosen to serve a community : when a priest forget the community, he/she commits a serious sin, and will be punished by the god(dess). The power of a shaman is not given by the community or by a god, it is inside him / her. So what happens if a shaman doesn't serve the community  ?

the style : we  imgine a weird, wild shaman, but again why a shaman could not follow the last esrolian or lunar fashion ? (cloth, behaviour,..) or why not a full armor ?

 

 

 

 

[Darius West]

On 2/4/2020 at 10:01 PM, Shiningbrow said:

But, I suspect that some spirits out there could teach those skills to a self-initiated person.

This would be the "child raised by wolves" scenario I was referring to earlier.  Spirits might help the self-initiate, but as with wolves, they might get hungry and eat the child as well; depends on the wolf and on the child.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I see a shaman in the mundane world like almost any one. The shaman has some powers, few are always active, and these always active are not so weird.

They have Second Sight, they have Speak Spiritspeech, so absolutely they will be babbling incoherently to things that "aren't there".

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

They have Second Sight, they have Speak Spiritspeech, so absolutely they will be babbling incoherently to things that "aren't there".

yes.. like "ghost whisperer" ? not so hard in a world where everybody knows these things exist

[PhilHibbs]

22 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes.. like "ghost whisperer" ? not so hard in a world where everybody knows these things exist

Right, people aren't going to assume that the guy babbling incoherently to something that isn't there is insane. They're going to assume he's a shaman. They might still throw rocks at him to drive him off though. Much though we might like to make our game worlds inclusive and woke, some Gloranthans are still jerks.

The game mechanics are pretty simplistic about spirits, though, and that's a shame. Either you have Second Sight and can see all spirits, or you can't. A spirit can have Visibility on it, though, in which case everyone can see it. There's no grey areas, where some people can see a spirit and some can't. I'm sure there are spirits that can be seen only by cult members, only by their descendants, by creatures of chaos, by illuminates, by people who have completed certain rituals (quests), etc. I guess you just write that up in the spirit's description in the scenario or bestiary entry.

Edited February 5, 2020 by PhilHibbs