What is a "Shaman"?

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I got what you meant.

I'm saying that a shaman might deal with a solar spirit for one thing, then an air spirit for another, and an earth spirit for a third... And thus, end up with conflicting taboos.

Taboos are from the Bad Man, not from individual deals

[Shiningbrow]

19 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Taboos are from the Bad Man, not from individual deals

"Shamanic Abilities and Taboos

Most shamanic abilities and all taboos are always in effect. If a shaman wishes to gain a new ability or taboo, they must contact a Greater Entity. Greater Entities vary from place to place. In Dragon Pass, the Greater Entities are Horned Man, Daka Fal, Waha, Hykim and Mikyh, Kolat, Kyger Litor, Jakaboom, and the Earth Witch." (P 359)

In My Glorantha, I'd allow deals with other spirits as well. E.g., if you want to cross this river safely, the group's shaman has a chat with the local river spirit, who might demand the taboo as payment (possibly unlikely and fairly easy to ignore by the shaman, but I'd see it as possible... )

I'd be inclined to do something similar with Spirit Pacts as well. 1 POW per 10 of the spirit's POW, plus maybe a ban/taboo thrown in while the spirit is still around... If you have a pact with a horse spirit, it might be offensive to (not) eat horse meat while it's looking over your shoulder.. 

(I'd probably also stress the shaman's Honour passion.. ).

While this is my Glorantha, the rules support it...

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Austin]

53 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

In My Glorantha, I'd allow deals with other spirits as well. E.g., if you want to cross this river safely, the group's shaman has a chat with the local river spirit, who might demand the taboo as payment (possibly unlikely and fairly easy to ignore by the shaman, but I'd see it as possible... )

I'd be inclined to do something similar with Spirit Pacts as well. 1 POW per 10 of the spirit's POW, plus maybe a ban/taboo thrown in while the spirit is still around... If you have a pact with a horse spirit, it might be offensive to (not) eat horse meat while it's looking over your shoulder.. 

I believe the Oakfed spirit cult (page 379, but drawing from memory here) also provides an example. Worshipers must never let a fire go completely out.

My take is that the Bad Man messes new shamans up with some taboos (unless you're super lucky), but then other taboos—like those on the random taboo tables—come from the spirits the shaman is getting new abilities from.

I like the idea of shamans taking on new taboos as part of pacts, and it's probably something I'll adapt in my Glorantha as well.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I always figured gaming *is* an important social interaction...

  Nope, it's about winning. 

3 hours ago, Crel said:

I believe the Oakfed spirit cult (page 379, but drawing from memory here) also provides an example. Worshipers must never let a fire go completely out.

Woah, that's pretty harsh, if it's as literal as that implies.

I suppose you could say "I didn't let it go out. I just walked away and let nature take its course". Like "Never let a horse suffer" doesn't mean you need to take every horse under your wing and protect it from harm for ever.

Edited February 7, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[French Desperate WindChild]

Imagine now a shaman happy just with his first powers (after meeting bad man)

The shaman "plays" with weak spirits, avoid any danger (if she can) and do not negotiate anything with any great entity

Is she so different than others ? for example if Black Fang shamans are able to "Conceal Fetch (Rare)" that means they want to conceal they are shamans ?

Of course in a large part, shamans are seen as shaman, and must be seen as shaman (to show they are powerful for example, marketing-communication expertise )

But is it realy shocking (as GM / player) to imagine some "civilized shaman" they have the inner power, but no role in the community, try or not to do few things with their abilities but don't want to become powerful ?

If I were shaman IRL (reword : If I obtained by accident some gloranthan shamanic powers) I would certainly do my best to not be identified as shaman, not refusing the way, just not communicating it

 

 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Woah, that's pretty harsh, if it's as literal as that implies.

you could add a sample to the fire gourd you carry with you (this was an extraordinarily common thing everywhere in the world before matches). you didn't extinguish it, and the fire lives on in your gourd.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

  ... I suppose you could say "I didn't let it go out. I just walked away and let nature take its course"...

I have always understood that to be the case.  If it's YOUR camp, and YOUR fire, then you (the Oakfed shaman) will keep the fire alive.

Once you break camp, and depart, it's no longer your camp, or your fire.  It may go out, or it may break the fire-ring and spread (speaking of which:  I (strongly!) suspect that an Oakfed shaman never uses a fire-ring or fire-pit or any other built restriction on the spread of a fire!), or whatever else the fire naturally does.

 

58 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

you could add a sample to the fire gourd you carry with you (this was an extraordinarily common thing everywhere in the world before matches). you didn't extinguish it, and the fire lives on in your gourd.

I particularly like this, as it implies the Oakfed shaman is carrying, maintaining -- and spreading as they travel to new places -- one singular gigantic fire!

This fire -- right here, in this gourd (or pot, or whatever) is the same fire that has burned all across Prax, deep into the Wastes, up into Pent on raids, out to trade (and raid) in Sartar.  This fire burns everywhere.

I imagine some special rituals when two Oakfed shamans meet ... joining their fires into one, each taking a bit of the resulting fire when they leave.  When they do that, each takes a piece of the others' "fire history" and puts it into their own Sacred Fire, spreading into one singular Great Fire that burns everywhere any Oakfed shaman goes...

[soltakss]

On 2/3/2020 at 6:19 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Is Horned Man also Daka Fal? I'm unclear a little bit.

No, Horned Man is the first Shaman, whereas Daka Fal organised the Spirit World but is not a Shaman.

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

13 hours ago, Crel said:

I believe the Oakfed spirit cult (page 379, but drawing from memory here) also provides an example. Worshipers must never let a fire go completely out.

Woah, that's pretty harsh, if it's as literal as that implies.

I suppose you could say "I didn't let it go out. I just walked away and let nature take its course". Like "Never let a horse suffer" doesn't mean you need to take every horse under your wing and protect it from harm for ever.

Does the geas still include the word "needlessly"? We loved that as Players, as we would always find a reason why the horses needed to suffer.

[Rob Darvall]

14 hours ago, g33k said:

I particularly like this, as it implies the Oakfed shaman is carrying, maintaining -- and spreading as they travel to new places -- one singular gigantic fire!

This fire -- right here, in this gourd (or pot, or whatever) is the same fire that has burned all across Prax, deep into the Wastes, up into Pent on raids, out to trade (and raid) in Sartar.  This fire burns everywhere.

I imagine some special rituals when two Oakfed shamans meet ... joining their fires into one, each taking a bit of the resulting fire when they leave.  When they do that, each takes a piece of the others' "fire history" and puts it into their own Sacred Fire, spreading into one singular Great Fire that burns everywhere any Oakfed shaman goes...

Stolen.
And it is the same fire that Kindled/was Kindled by Oakfed when he defeated [insert name of enemy here]  in the [ Godtime, Green Age, Darkness?], which we have kept burning ever since.

[Austin]

On 2/7/2020 at 3:22 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Woah, that's pretty harsh, if it's as literal as that implies.

 

14 hours ago, soltakss said:

Does the geas still include the word "needlessly"?

Relevant text:

Quote

Oakfed only demands of his initiates and shamans that they never let a fire go out completely or possess the spirit magic spell Extinguish.

As a GM I might allow an adventurer to walk away & let the fire do what it will, because paying that much attention might not best fit our table's MGF.

But the gourd idea's great, and I'd definitely allow that as "not letting the fire die" if you tossed in a few coals.

[PhilHibbs]

18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

you could add a sample to the fire gourd you carry with you (this was an extraordinarily common thing everywhere in the world before matches). you didn't extinguish it, and the fire lives on in your gourd.

Got any info an actual fire gourds, that aren't Plants Vs Zombies links? What actually are they?

[Qizilbashwoman]

22 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Got any info an actual fire gourds, that aren't Plants Vs Zombies links? What actually are they?

err... no. they're in pvz? but they are small containers that people kept fires burning in that they carried with them, because lighting fires was more annoying than actually bringing fire with you. in places where it is cold they might actually be a full fire - the people preceding the Inuit wore parkas that turned you into a stove with a chimney, for example - but typically it was a very small thing, protected from the elements, that could be coaxed into a blaze if removed from the box/gourd/other container into a bundle of sticks.

[David Scott]

On 2/7/2020 at 3:45 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

you could add a sample to the fire gourd you carry with you (this was an extraordinarily common thing everywhere in the world before matches). you didn't extinguish it, and the fire lives on in your gourd.

Amongst the Praxians, it's a fire horn rather than a gourd (gourds being only available at a few oases). Waha tamed Oakfed by placing him into a fire horn that Helpwoman had shown him how to make and use. Only a Waha Khan can authorise the release of Oakfed from his horn (that's the giant mythical wildfire, not the small stuff)

Edited February 9, 2020 by David Scott

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Only a Waha Khan can authorise the release of Oakfed from his horn (that's the giant mythical wildfire, not the small stuff)

In the Nomad Gods boardgame, it is the tribal shaman who has the ability, with no khan requirement. But then I suppose that the tribal shaman is a Waha shaman.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Only a Waha Khan can authorise the release of Oakfed from his horn (that's the giant mythical wildfire, not the small stuff)

I don't think that means a Waha Khan approval is required to actually release Oakfed, rather only he can give the tribal shaman permission to do so. Much like how only the US Persident can authorize the use of nuclear weapons, but someone else would actually do it. So I think that would still be consistent with:

47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In the Nomad Gods boardgame, it is the tribal shaman who has the ability, with no khan requirement. But then I suppose that the tribal shaman is a Waha shaman.

 

[davecake]

On 2/8/2020 at 3:35 AM, soltakss said:

No, Horned Man is the first Shaman, whereas Daka Fal organised the Spirit World but is not a Shaman.

Yes. Daka Fal is also Grandfather Mortal though, who of course was mortal, so is he is dead now, so the first Mortal and the Judge of the Dead are the same being. He doesn't actually judge the dead much, just redirects them on to where they should go. 

In general, most myths seem to say the Horned Man came after the invention of mortality - there was no need for him until the living and dead were separate. 

 

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes. Daka Fal is also Grandfather Mortal though, who of course was mortal, so is he is dead now, so the first Mortal and the Judge of the Dead are the same being. He doesn't actually judge the dead much, just redirects them on to where they should go. 

In general, most myths seem to say the Horned Man came after the invention of mortality - there was no need for him until the living and dead were separate. 

 

So, he's the underworld's information desk? :p

[PhilHibbs]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, he's the underworld's information desk? :p

"Baths of Nelat? One towel each, second door on the left."

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes. Daka Fal is also Grandfather Mortal though, who of course was mortal, so is he is dead now, so the first Mortal and the Judge of the Dead are the same being. He doesn't actually judge the dead much, just redirects them on to where they should go. 

In general, most myths seem to say the Horned Man came after the invention of mortality - there was no need for him until the living and dead were separate. 

 

The Fiwan myth has Earthmaker killed by Bolongo, only to return as Amuron, the Horned Serpent. Being killed transformed the Creator entity, even though that wasn't capital D Death yet.

But yes, that story is a version of the Sword Story, playing out in the deep past of the Creation Age.

 

My personal view of Godtime is that it moves sequentially, in more or less straight lines, on a cylinder or a conus (like the Spike). There is something like a seasonal cycle to this, and the Sword Story (bringing the first death) is on the winter quarter of that cycle, not limited to a single time-line, but a zone many of these lines pass through.

 

In that model, the Horned Man (or the Horned Serpent) did indeed come into being when the path of Earthmaker/Creator approached this zone, and Trickster slew him/separated him from his physical form, but this happened back in the Green Age.

 

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, davecake said:

He doesn't actually judge the dead much, just redirects them on to where they should go. 

He certainly serves as the Judge in my Underworld! He's got the scales out and is ready to weigh your soul. 😲

Who you get to support you, and who comes to oppose you, is another question. But when the facts are there, he either lets you go off to your gods, sends you to some deeper Hell, or confines you to some unending limbo.

[davecake]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:27 AM, jajagappa said:

But when the facts are there, he either lets you go off to your gods, sends you to some deeper Hell, or confines you to some unending limbo.

Yes. But most of the time, as few deserve a truly hideous hell, he sends you off to your gods... who then judge you in their own way. Eg Heortlings don’t generally head off to a deeper Hell or an unending Limbo unless they are truly awful and probably Chaotic, and no god will claim their soul - almost always they head off to the Orlanthi gods who then decide if they are heroes of honor who deserve a seat at Orlanth and Ernaldas table, or low churls who scrabble for scraps outside the hall. 
Daka Fal usually is not judging your conduct but the magical connections you made and which after life you belong in. And most of the time, he is just telling you what you already believe to be true (there is a reason his face is a mirror). 

[jajagappa]

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

But most of the time, as few deserve a truly hideous hell, he sends you off to your gods... who then judge you in their own way.

That's only because you've been a good Orlanthi, aiding your ancestors, elders and kin (the dead of which will speak for you); offering to your gods (who come to speak for you and probably give extra weight to your case); and gaining a positive reputation. Most of your dead foes though will come to speak against you - and if you've accrued a really negative reputation (steadburning comes to mind), you may find more speaking against you than expected!

17 minutes ago, davecake said:

Eg Heortlings don’t generally head off to a deeper Hell or an unending Limbo

Ty Kora Tek's Caves of Silence are well filled, though, and a grim and desolate abode for the dead.

18 minutes ago, davecake said:

he is just telling you what you already believe to be true (there is a reason his face is a mirror)

I'm less inclined to say they he's showing you what you believe to be true and far more that he's showing you the "real" you - the Truth of your life - which is not necessarily what you thought it was. 

20 minutes ago, davecake said:

Daka Fal usually is not judging your conduct but the magical connections you made and which after life you belong in.

He's got the scales. They aren't there just to weigh magical connections, but to weigh your soul - good and bad. Where the scales end up is where he's going to point you to (or which guardians he'll summon to take you to a place you'd rather not go).  No free passes just because you initiated to Orlanth or Ernalda!

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes. But most of the time, as few deserve a truly hideous hell, he sends you off to your gods... who then judge you in their own way. Eg Heortlings don’t generally head off to a deeper Hell or an unending Limbo unless they are truly awful and probably Chaotic, and no god will claim their soul - almost always they head off to the Orlanthi gods who then decide if they are heroes of honor who deserve a seat at Orlanth and Ernaldas table, or low churls who scrabble for scraps outside the hall. 
Daka Fal usually is not judging your conduct but the magical connections you made and which after life you belong in. And most of the time, he is just telling you what you already believe to be true (there is a reason his face is a mirror). 

If you reach Daka Fal, he'll just point you towards your expected afterlife. Crossing the River of Swords is the killer, if those heroquest descriptions are accurate. Any minor infraction, and you won't have a chance to meet Daka Fal.

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

He's got the scales.

That is one heck of a line! I love it.

[Jusmak]

Creating Uz character, profession Shaman. Does this profession really mean real shaman, with fetch or more like assistant shaman after all? Does he use spirit combat damage d6+1 or d6+3?

At creation he gets 5 points spirit magic, but on spirit magic chapter it says: " a shaman can have any spell he wants." That sounds a bit dull way to develop a character.

As he anyway has skills like spirit travel, spirit dance, spirit combat he can have his adventures in spirit world, and have his way to find spells he want. I think I have seen somewhere, maybe in some previous edition how shaman fights in spirit combat for learning a spell. Does somebody remember such table? For now I think 1 spell point could be equavalent for 1D6 POW of spirit. So 4 p shimmer would be found from spirit with 4d6 POW. Strong shamans with fetch would still have strong spells, but there would be some limits to spells at hand.