Draconic Orlanth

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

In terms of RQG Runes, Dragonewts should not have the Man rune. Even though elves, trolls, dwarves etc have the Man rune, so it clearly doesn’t represent humanity, it does represent mortality, and dragonewts are not mortal but ever reborn.

i would say that makes dragonewts very mortal; they die more often than anyone else...

The falling dragon meets the rising ape at the man rune. The dragonewt 'rune' is just a compound glyph for that plus 'dragon'

Some sages theorise that the process of becoming a dragon involves splitting up that compound rune into its components. This requires fully develop that man rune, by living a full human life in all aspects, from youth to rulership.

Only once complete can it be discarded. without it, only the dragon remains.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by radmonger
cleaned up language

[Joerg]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

The Man Rune represents Grandfather Mortal. All intelligent humanoid mortals. 

So no cookies for newtlings, timinits? Centaurs and merfolk obviously get a pass for being at least partially humanoid. Broos and Scorpionfolk might, too, if they weren't that chaotic.

Herd men don't get Gramps Mortal, but the mostly quadruped, decidedly non-humanoid Morokanth get it for them.

 

20 hours ago, davecake said:

So no chickens, Magisaurs, dragonewts or unintelligent monkeys. 

What do the magisaurs get after losing their dragonewt rune? Spirit?

The giant ones may be stupid but still are borderline sentient, much like failed dragonewt dinosaurs repenting and transforming into pteranodons. Beast alone doesn't work. The Bestiary's "Beast and Water" at 60% each doesn't address this.

Wyrms might actually have an ancestral claim to the man rune.

 

No runners, but pixies possibly. No unicorns?

[metcalph]

Just a minor niggle.  The Dragonewt Rune includes more than the Dragonewt.  IMO It also includes the Wyrms and the Frogosaurus/Ken Majee/Hurler (Guide p76).  It probably includes Hadrosaus, Magisaurs and other Dinosaurs.

 If it has to be contrasted with other runes in the way that humans have the man/beast duality or the power duality, the Dragonewt Rune would be opposed by all the other runes together.  But I don't think it should be developed in detail to describe their mystical evolution because Dragonewts are so inscrutable such that such a system would detract from their mystery while Wyrms and and other non-Dragonewts have always been pretty shit at Dragon Magic.  

For wyrms, barbarian Dragonewts, etc, I would just have the form, element and the power affinities being in three separate pools each with a total of 100%.  That puts some exotic constraints on their runic affinities.  If you want a metaphysical explanation, they are three of the limbs of Orxili.

 

[davecake]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

So no cookies for newtlings, timinits?

Hey, I didn't make the rules. 

From Glorantha Sourcebook

Quote

This Rune represents the humanoid shape, and is common among all intelligent humanoid races. 

Personally, I would say nestlings yes (as they are Ancestor Worshippers, which seems to be a very Man Rune thing), they must have got some sort of exemption for the tail. Timinits I don't think so, just too weird. 

 

On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

Centaurs and merfolk obviously get a pass for being at least partially humanoid.

Centaurs seem to get an inheritance clause from the human half, but don't seem that excited by it. I think it varies for other Beast Men. Merfolk I'm not sure - they seem to mix their more otherworldly ancestors freely into their genealogies? 

On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

Broos and Scorpionfolk might, too, if they weren't that chaotic.

Yeah, who knows, and who expects the rules to apply consistently to either?

On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

Herd men don't get Gramps Mortal, but the mostly quadruped, decidedly non-humanoid Morokanth get it for them.

Yes. The Morokanth have the Man rune, but arguably because they took it from the Herd Men rather than coming by it naturally. 

On 1/12/2023 at 7:13 PM, Joerg said:

What do the magisaurs get after losing their dragonewt rune? Spirit?

The giant ones may be stupid but still are borderline sentient, much like failed dragonewt dinosaurs repenting and transforming into pteranodons.

Did they lose it? Having the Dragonewt rune (a Form rune) and being able to cast draconic magic are not the same thing at all. So I think Magisaurs, Trachodons, and Wyrms all could be said to retain the Dragonewt rune. They can all naturally speak Auld Wyrmish, for example. They can't cast dragon magic, but nor can Crested Dragonewts and no one says they don't get the Dragonewt rune. As Jeff says, Dragon Magic and the Dragonewt spiritual advancement towards dragon status is more than just changing a rune, it is a consequence of spiritual development within that system, just as devolution to other forms is a consequence of spiritual failure within that system. 

They are like Rootless elves, who possess the Plant Form rune but are unable to access it magically. 

Normal dinosaurs need no other Form rune besides Beast, like any other non-sentient animal. Symbology need not recapitulate phylogeny. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by davecake

[davecake]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:20 PM, metcalph said:

Orlaront Dragonfriend has a Dragonewt Rune according to the Sartar Companion p72.

Runes in HQG and RQG mean fundamentally different things.

In RQG they are at least somewhat linked to your essential nature, certainly in the case of Form runes, a somewhat simulationist approach. In HQG they were a measure of your ability to use that kind of magic or ability to solve problems, which equates to multiple things in RQG which *might* include a Rune, but certainly need not include your innate Form. So a shaman in RQG is not a spirit so has no Spirit rune, but his Fetch, Spirit Lore, Spirit Travel and other skills, his Shamanic abilities, his related spirit magic, that all enable him to solve problems using Spirit rune related methods all roughly equate to his an RQG Spirit rune. 

So I'd say Orlaront having the Dragonewt rune only means that he knows a bunch about dragonewts and other things draconic, probably some Dragon Magic, and can overcome problems using draconic means. But it says nothing about his essential nature. 

RQG is a somewhat crunchy very simulationist system, HQG is a fairly abstracted narrativist system, and both have different ideas about how a somewhat abstract system of runes translates into game mechanics. 

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, davecake said:

Runes in HQG and RQG mean fundamentally different things.

If a human worshipping Aldrya means that he acquires the plant rune in RQG then I see no problem with a draconist like Orlaront having the Dragonewt Rune.

[radmonger]

Certainly if you don't get the rune, then knowing rune magic that uses that rune is pretty pointless.

There is a caveat here, that correctly being draconic is a big complicated mystical thing that isn't a matter of merely having a rune. The caveat to the caveat is that humans who want to fly, breath fire and have diamond skin are not always capturing that subtlety. 

The dragonewt rune, at some level, is clearly a mistake. The historical question s whether it was a mistake made by the Empire of Wyrm's Friends itself, or a mistake made by the god learners in understanding the EWF.

 

[EricW]

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

Certainly if you don't get the rune, then knowing rune magic that uses that rune is pretty pointless.

There is a caveat here, that correctly being draconic is a big complicated mystical thing that isn't a matter of merely having a rune. The caveat to the caveat is that humans who want to fly, breath fire and have diamond skin are not always capturing that subtlety. 

The dragonewt rune, at some level, is clearly a mistake. The historical question s whether it was a mistake made by the Empire of Wyrm's Friends itself, or a mistake made by the god learners in understanding the EWF.

 

KOS suggests draconic consciousness comes before knowledge or magic. 

King of Sartar - The Dragon Wars

 

... One day Eurmal found a new way to betray his master. He found a foolish man, and he split his tongue, the way that a bird’s tongue can be split to make it talk. And he also split the man’s brain, and his heart. That way the man would understand dragon speech.

The man, who is called Rostand the Speaker, enjoyed the effect. The dragonewts, which were always something to fear, spoke to him and he understood. He found his way to a dragon, and rather than being eaten, he learned a song from it! ...

 

So unless something changed (maybe?), all you need to do is convince Eurmal to "split your tongue, brain and heart", and you'll become draconic. You can then approach dragons and have a chance of not being eaten. 

[Richard S.]

On 1/17/2023 at 3:44 AM, metcalph said:

If a human worshipping Aldrya means that he acquires the plant rune in RQG then I see no problem with a draconist like Orlaront having the Dragonewt Rune.

From what Jeff's said, a human Aldrya worshiper who gains the plant rune isn't a human anymore, like how initiating to Kyger Litor requires turning into a troll.

Edit (citing my sources): https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/origin-of-rune-traits/

Edited January 21, 2023 by Richard S.

[metcalph]

38 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

From what Jeff's said, a human Aldrya worshiper who gains the plant rune isn't a human anymore, like how initiating to Kyger Litor requires turning into a troll.

Would this count as a sign of not being human?    

Quote

The man called the Laughing Singer was born in 1582 amid frightening omens.
When he was born, the midwife said, “He is left handed, we must kill him." But
the mother refused saying, "the world has changed and he shall live." The midwife
said, "It is my duty," and stabbed the baby, but purple blood burned the knife away.
The blood killed the midwife but when it splashed on the child’s parents they were not
harmed, nor was the important sage, Minaryth, who has worn purple ever since. His
parents named him Orlaront, but most called him the Laughing Singer.

Sartar Companion p72

 

[davecake]

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

If a human worshipping Aldrya means that he acquires the plant rune in RQG then I see no problem with a draconist like Orlaront having the Dragonewt Rune.

Based on drafts, I think the cult description of Aldrya in the Gods book will make it clear that humans initiating into Aldrya is as in RQ3 - effectively dieing through ritual sacrifice and being reborn as an elf. They gain the Plant Rune - but lose their Beast Rune. It's a horrific process. Other parts within the drafts I have state clearly that all humans lack a tie to the Plant rune. 

I'm not saying it is impossible for humans to 'have the Dragonewt rune', but that someone having the Dragonewt rune in their HeroQuest stats does not at mean that they do in RQG, because the latter strictly implies a change to  their essential nature, and the former does not. 

[metcalph]

 

Just now, davecake said:

I'm not saying it is impossible for humans to 'have the Dragonewt rune', but that someone having the Dragonewt rune in their HeroQuest stats does not at mean that they do in RQG, because the latter strictly implies a change to  their essential nature, and the former does not. 

I would have preferred a statement like the above about having the Dragonewt Rune means some inhuman features rather than a tediously abstract exegesis about the treatment of runes between RQG and HQG.

[davecake]

The draconic consciousness of the EWF is a mystic consciousness that is very similar to Illumination. It may be enough to use some Dragon Magic, but humans certainly seem to have a different relationship to Dragon magic than dragonewts do.

It's obviously not the same thing as the physical modifications required to speak Auld Wyrmish - which may or may not be the same as 'gaining the Dragonewt rune', I don't know. Certainly being able to speak Auld Wyrmish is helpful for those seeking draconic consciousness and dragon magic, but they are clearly not the same thing, as demonstrated by the entire species (magisaurs, trachodons, etc) who speak the language easily, but are almost defined by their lack of draconic consciousness/dragon magic. 

Peter quotes the story of Orlaront being born 'purple blooded' - but doesn't quote from a couple of paragraphs down where it says "They were said to be dragon blooded, but in fact, most of the time it was meaningless." - it could just as easily be the results of a curse, or a magical consequence of a past life, probably one as a dragon mystic. It shows that there was something extraordinary about Orlaront, and his history with Forang Forash shows that he knows a fair bit about the EWF. But I don't think says much about Orlaronts essential Runes. 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by davecake

[davecake]

41 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I would have preferred a statement like the above about having the Dragonewt Rune means some inhuman features rather than a tediously abstract exegesis about the treatment of runes between RQG and HQG.

I'm sorry you find having your arguments questioned and clarified tedious, but we are not the only two people in this discussion, and I make arguments for clarity rather than based on what you might have preferred.

[Erol of Backford]

I'd theorize that he has both the Dragon Rune and Man Rune. It may be a bit off topic but wouldn't all Kralorelan nobles have a split tongue?

Godunya’s guards are not dragonewts, but are mortal men whose devotion and dedication allows them to assume the form of dragons. So they have only the man rune but could have the dragon rune when they assume dragon form.

Transformative Runes

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The man called the Laughing Singer was born in 1582 amid frightening omens.

He had a cousin who wrote the song The Runes Are A Changin.

To further the muddied waters a half elven PC in our campaign has both the man and plant rune, for discussion purposes. What fun.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'd theorize that he has both the Dragon Rune and Man Rune. It may be a bit off topic but wouldn't all Kralorelan nobles have a split tongue?

I don't think so. Even among the mandarins very few have reason to directly deal with dragons or dragonewts. 

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Godunya’s guards are not dragonewts, but are mortal men whose devotion and dedication allows them to assume the form of dragons. So they have only the man rune but could have the dragon rune when they assume dragon form.

1) again, using draconic magic and 'having the dragonewt Rune' are different things. In the same  sense that a shaman uses Spirit magic and magic affecting Spirits all the time, but does not have the Spirit rune. And a crested dragonewt surely has the dragonewt rune, but no draconic magic. 

2) whether the Path of Immanent Mastery, who assume the form of dragons, are using real Dragon Magic in any way is a source of some debate - the God Learners thought so, but others think they are deluded and have it exactly backwards - compared to eg Godunya, so has a dragon soul and human form, the POIM gradually gain a dragons form, but many argue always have solely human souls. I tend to agree with that point of view - real Dragon Magic is mystic and draws on draconic consciousness. Of course, the guards of the Godunya may be something else, advanced Darudist dragon mystics who use methods resembling Dragon Magic to temporary assume a dragon form. 

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

To further the muddied waters a half elven PC in our campaign has both the man and plant rune, for discussion purposes. What fun.

Most elves have both the Man and Plant Rune, being both humanoid sentient mortals, and plants. It's if he has both the Plant and Beast runes it gets really weird.

Though half-elves existing in modern Glorantha is very weird and unusual anyway - humans and elves can't produce offspring without quite exotic magic. In Pavis: GTA for HeroQuest, the Pavis cult possessed a sorcery grimoire that contained a ritual to allow it (and also half-Mostali), and Pavis is the most recent example of a half-elf I know of. I can't think of a well known Third Age example - can anyone else? It seems to be a result of EWF magical projects to reproduce the Golden Age. Apart from that, it seemed to happen more in the First Age. 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

using draconic magic and 'having the dragonewt Rune' are different things.

As are the dragon rune and the dragonewt rune.

I don't think it is explicitly stated anywhere, but Dragonewt may reasonably be considered a hybrid rune of Man and Dragon, like Trade is a hybrid of Mobility and Harmony. This allows a rune cult that has that rune to teach magic that would otherwise require both runes, as many Issaries spells do

My understanding is that vanilla humans have two runes, Man and Beast. Godunya's guards develop Beast into Dragon. By their RQIII rune spell list, they looks suspiciously like they are either descended from dragon hsunchen, or represent the god learner's idea of what dragon hsunchen would be.

The EWF instead developed Man into Dragonewt, by surgery and ritual. This was considered to give a better basis for then developing the Dragon rune, because that is what dragonewts do all day.

The Kraloreans would no doubt disagree; high imperial officials have high Dragon rune ratings while remaining fully human. They just use that rune according to some unwritten mysticism rules that doesn't involve anything as crude as sprouting wings. 

[Eff]

So  is denoted as a shape, and  has been a condition or modifier as recently as the Guide but may instead be a personal rune now, judging by the procedural rhetoric of smiley codes. 

What that would mean, taken directly and simply, is that  is something that can be applied to , , , , , presumably others, and also . You can be a dragon and a hominid, a dragon and an animal, a dragon and a plant, a spirit dragon, a chaos dragon, and of course, a dragonewt dragon. This has some shockingly radical implications, but luckily RQG with its visions of natural essences tamps them down by keeping Dragon well away from the character sheet. 

Now with that said, I find myself somewhat bemused by the thought that shapes are somehow absolutely mutually exclusive when humans have  as well, and if that's because of real-world biology, they should also have because of mitochondria, intestinal flora, etc.,  because they do have a latent potential to become a bodiless spirit... but that's the trouble of a game mechanic that ostensibly represents pure psychology getting tangled up in metaphysics.

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

So  is denoted as a shape, and  has been a condition or modifier as recently as the Guide but may instead be a personal rune now, judging by the procedural rhetoric of smiley codes. 

I have yet to see in a RQG context. In the Guide, it is shown alongside Trade and Light (rather than Fire), neither of which are used in RQG (neither personal/divine runes nor as sorcerous runic mastery).

It appears that the rune originated with Daruda. It may have been manifest in Kralorela prior to the formation or expansion of the Suam Chow, but after the Dragon's Awakening Shudder in 1051 (or 1054?) Godunya felt the urge or necessity to (re-) establish the rune as a landmark, funnily connecting only to one of the three major dragonewt colonies on Vaska Long and Hum Chang.

(Is there any significance in the absence of Kralori dragonewt colonies on the mainland?)

Unless this has been retracted, the Jonstown sage Tosti Runefriend ought to be the leading expert in Kralori draconism west of the Wastes. No idea whether he got an insight into the real deal the Exarchs are handling or just the Immanent Mastery drivel that already the EWF had as one of their "short cut" methods to become Great (but not True) Dragons.

 

We find the rune in the Prince of Sartar webcomic on Argrath's necklace holding the dragonteeth that supposedly can release the Dragontooth Runner warbands. In the Dragon Pass boardgame, Argrath can control up to two of these demigod warbands. They are entirely man-rune shaped, without any distinctive racial features mentioned in their descriptions, although the counter illustration seems to give them antlers, or at least antlered helmets.

 

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

they should also have because of mitochondria, intestinal flora, etc.

Where do you get the mitochondria - Plant Rune connection from?

Intestinal flora because of yeasts and other anaerobic funghi? In the real world, plant life is defined by chloroplasts as endo-cellular symbionts (excluding stand-alone cyanobacteria, purple bacteria, dinoflagellates etc. and being murky on lichen or corals), and only if we are talking about eucariotic plants, with mitochondria, too. In Glorantha, the inclusion of Mee Vorala even takes autotrophy (or should one say photophagy) out of the definition.

Intestinal flora is more or less Darkness, perhaps with Fertility instead of a form rune. Microbial life is pretty much form-less by Gloranthan definition. Fungal life really feeds on biofilms and Darkness life, as well as dead organic matter yet untouched by other Darkness organisms, except for the mycorhizes which receive their chemical energy in trade for water and minerals collected outside of the reach of the roots of their host plants. Real world funghi are polytrophic eucaryotes that usually don't have any chloroplasts, with most (if not all) of them able to use mitochondrial processes reliant on oxygen, whether from the air or from inorganic compounds (such as nitrates, sulphates, or hydrated iron or manganese ions). Gloranthan funghi might actually consume Darkness or at least take magical power out of Darkness, much like plants generate life from Fire or Light. Light does get consumed, at least as per real-world thermodynamics.

In Gloranthan terms, Life is a form of energy, in RQ generating MP through the POW characteristic. Or possibly through a form of autotrophy leeching off the magical energies flowing from the Source into the deepest Underworld, funneled through runes/runic entities and accumulated by denizens of the Inner World (including portions of the Underworld, e.g. the original Uz caverns now polluted by fiery Death). Undeath is a similar form of energy, some latently autotrophic in nature (zombies), others mainly polytrophic feeding on the life energy of other entities.

True Dragons access the source, often with some runic flavor shared with the runic origins or owners, such as Krisa Yar the Red True Dragon partaking in Fire and the Brown Dragon of the Dragonrise partaking in Storm, shared by Yelm and Orlanth, respectively.

 

To come back to the subject of the thread, the EWF started as elemental-agnostic, outside of the Theyalan framework of deities. It appears that the disciples of Vistikos Left-eye and subsequent early draconic "teachers" slacked on their Theyalan sacrifices, or gave up on them entirely, and it wasn't until Obduran the Flyer's revelation that Orlanth sacrifice and draconic worship were combined without one blotting out the other. Obduran, and orthodox dragonspeakers like Ingolf after him, were fully initiated (and more) into the cult of Orlanth, and acted as priests or wind lords or godtalkers at least at times. Maintaining the community passions without losing draconic detachment was hard, however - Ingolf had to restart his draconic development from scratch, and could not complete it by the time of the 1042 mass utuma.

Most EWF people were content to worship Orlanth in only somewhat draconized form, or in other cases would not rebel violently against such an amount of draconic symbolism and magic intruding into their deity time. This form of worship funneled energies towards the leaders of the Third Council, fueling several short cut methods deviating from draconic orthodoxy, leading to easier use of dragon powers in the world. (We never learned how it affected the spiritual development of Isgangdrang.)

The funneling of energies into a Proximate Holy Realm through draconic elements is not the route Argrath is pursuing, but neither does he pursue the path to dragonhood that Ingolf did. He seeks draconic enlightenment as a counter to Lunar illumination and cyclical power, and seems to have inherited the Sartarite take on using and expanding Belintar's Proximate Holy Realm questing, whether through (social) architecture or through questing. Argrath's main path seems to be the acknowledgement as the superior magical ruler of his realm, starting with the recognition as King of Dragon Pass, and later expanding that to include Kethaela and Saird. His Questing/Adventuring takes him to Ralios and Dorastor, taking up Arkat's inheritance (at least one fifth of that), and deep into and beyond the Lunar Empire against the Kalikos Quest. The EWF at its furthest extent is a useful descriptor for his territorial desire, and calling up the draconic ghosts of that past certainly will aid his claims against his many rivals and foes.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Though half-elves existing in modern Glorantha is very weird and unusual anyway - humans and elves can't produce offspring without quite exotic magic. In Pavis: GTA for HeroQuest, the Pavis cult possessed a sorcery grimoire that contained a ritual to allow it (and also half-Mostali), and Pavis is the most recent example of a half-elf I know of. I can't think of a well known Third Age example - can anyone else? It seems to be a result of EWF magical projects to reproduce the Golden Age. Apart from that, it seemed to happen more in the First Age. 

I am unaware of any prominent half-elf NPCs in the Third Age lore, but I wonder whether “half-elf” only applies to offspring of a green elf, brown elf or yellow elf parent, or whether children of dryads and humans (usually males) would be regarded as half-elf, too. Dryads are a special kind of nymphs, able to produce offspring from matings with just about anything they can form a compatible temporary physical body for. For a male to get seduced by a dryad in the forest, and to be saddled with a weird child a year or more later, would not be that exotic.

Elder Secrets has the experience of a Pamaltelan elf-friend who got really friendly with a female (most likely brown) elf, and who received blossoms sprouting out of his body in Sea and/or Fire Season. No idea whether the female received offspring from pollination after he acquired these sexual organs - possibly at the expense of useless human genitalia?

No idea whether satyrs lust after dryads – they do lust after other types of nymphs (mainly terrain ones like limoniads or oreads, meadows and hills, but probably would take a bath for the affections of a naiad, too). Maybe their beast rune and the dryad’s plant rune are repelling one another?

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

the counter illustration seems to give them antlers, or at least antlered helmets.

There's a lot in this thread but the thought that these people may actually be an elite corps of Pralorite serpent brotherhood is too tempting to ignore.

[Darius West]

On 1/6/2023 at 1:01 AM, Soccercalle said:

Can a human have a Dragonewt Rune? 

The answer is yes.

For a human to get the dragonewt rune requires them to get the potentially lethal "Split brain/split tongue" surgery that allows a human to progress beyond 25% in Auld Wyrmish.  The human must also have the permission of the dragonewts and be able to initiate into their Path.  Obviously this happened a lot during the EWF and represented humans becoming Draconic mystics.

On 1/11/2023 at 7:09 PM, davecake said:

In terms of RQG Runes, Dragonewts should not have the Man rune.

Sorry to go all Godlearner on you, but all creatures in Glorantha have a little bit of all the runes.  Runes are like atoms in Glorantha.  

Now for a dragonewt who is sick of the Draconic Path, they may potentially slip off it.  If they go and join another "human" cult, they will get the runes of that cult like anyone else.  It would be hard for the dragonewt apostate to join a man rune cult, but Aldrya accepts other races and she has a man rune, so a dragonewt who initiated with Aldrya could get a man rune concentration that way, and gradually become more human imo.  It is odd, but not impossible.

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Where do you get the mitochondria - Plant Rune connection from?

Intestinal flora because of yeasts and other anaerobic funghi? In the real world, plant life is defined by chloroplasts as endo-cellular symbionts (excluding stand-alone cyanobacteria, purple bacteria, dinoflagellates etc. and being murky on lichen or corals), and only if we are talking about eucariotic plants, with mitochondria, too. In Glorantha, the inclusion of Mee Vorala even takes autotrophy (or should one say photophagy) out of the definition.

 

From the inclusion of fungi and algae (and cyanobacteria) in the umbrella of the Plant rune, indicating that it can't be treated as equivalent to the real-world kingdom of life. So perhaps it's a question of shapes, or perhaps it's a question of general life pattern of "passive feeding", or similar, but the precise details are less important than the problematized nature of "human" once you expand that out beyond . Even in terms of psychology, if we can classify certain things as "beast psychology" for  we can surely classify things as "plant psychology" for . It does disrupt those nice paired Traits, though. 

[radmonger]

So humans don't inherently have the plant nature; whatever plantlike stuff may or may not be present inside their body is not normally integrated into their consciousness, or part of their psychology.

Presumably a human with a plant rune is consciously aware of the process of digestion, and can choose to alter their metabolism in desired ways. This may be why most depictions of elves show them as skinny.

 

 

 

[Eff]

49 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So humans don't inherently have the plant nature; whatever plantlike stuff may or may not be present inside their body is not normally integrated into their consciousness, or part of their psychology.

Presumably a human with a plant rune is consciously aware of the process of digestion, and can choose to alter their metabolism in desired ways. This may be why most depictions of elves show them as skinny.

 

The same could be said of "animal stuff", that too is not integrated into our consciousness as a separable quantity. Human consciousness, though it may be partible into components that emerged at different points in our evolutionary history, can only ever be defined in species terms as "human". It is, however, a metaphor of instrumental use.