Draconic Orlanth

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if Nochet has dedicated places for "secular" (not that there's really a clean line there) performances as well.

It certainly does! A great temple to Donandar down below Kena Hill.

You can certainly see here the classic tragedies such as: Arkilia the Sad Lady; The Doom of Rastagar; the Household of Death; and Aranda's Vengeance. And, coming soon!, two new epic productions! King Broyan, the Wondrous Betrayal; and Luckless Kallyr the Fallen Star.  

 

[davecake]

Kallyr is bit too recent to be fully dramatised (in the campaign start date of 1625 the really tragic bits haven’t happened yet), same with Bryan too. But songs and plays about the lineage of Sartar are common. And almost all tragedies, obviously.

Groups of travelling players seem like a great idea. Some will be Donandar magicians, some mostly innocent artists, some thieves or con men on the side ( a Trickster or two perhaps), some even ogres or worse. 

( in the West, certain sorcerer thieves are often travelling entertainers I think - the Telendarian tradition of magic, forever tainted by its association with the Vadeli, and forced underground by Talor). 

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 2/17/2020 at 7:00 AM, jajagappa said:

 

Who did this map? I would love a little help from someone who can do maps like this! :)

Also (my reason for checking out this thread) I remember ages ago seeking a (fan-created?) write-up of Orlantha Dragonfriend worship

Before I sit down to write this myself for P&BRC_DC_Vol02 (since the cult is present in Pavis City) I thought I'd check and see if there were any good sources already around?

Edited March 3, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

Who did this map? I would love a little help from someone who can do maps like this! 🙂

 

I believe that is our wonderful jajagappa!

[Richard S.]

5 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

Who did this map? I would love a little help from someone who can do maps like this! 🙂

Also (my reason for checking out this thread) I remember ages ago seeking a (fan-created?) write-up of Orlantha Dragonfriend worship

Before I sit down to write this myself for P&BRC_DC_Vol02 (since the cult is present in Pavis City) I thought I'd check and see if there were any good sources already around?

There was a fanmade HW version I saw once, and of course mongoose had their own take, but personally I don't think Orlanth Dragonfriend should really be a cult of its own, just a subcult. If I were to write it up for my campaign I'd just make it a subcult of Orlanth Adventurous, not providing any magic on its own but teaching Auld Wyrmish and offering a chance at unlocking your draconic consciousness, essentially being a gateway to the actual mystical paths rather than one itself.

From what Jeff's said, it seems to me that most EWF citizens just followed their old religions and gave some worship to the council on the side. Comparatively few actually engaged in draconic or other mystical stuff. And dragon magics weren't the only thing in the EWF either, Pavis and Delecti are both examples of completely non-draconic projects.

I don't think Orlanth Dragonfriend is present in modern-day Pavis unless Argrath or the players somehow resurrect it. The only draconic cult left in the region is the Sun Dragon, and that's only because of its sole worshipper Windwhistler.

Edit: I think the HW Dragonfriend cult I was thinking of was on Wesley Quadros' Glorantha site, but it's been taken down.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Richard S.

[Ian A. Thomson]

 

>>Of course mongoose had their own take,<<

What publication was that in?

 

>>personally I don't think Orlanth Dragonfriend should really be a cult of its own, just a subcult.<<

I am writing a version for the time of the EWF, so will probably make it be it's own subcult or at least an alternate version of O Adv

 

>>not providing any magic on its own but teaching Auld Wyrmish and offering a chance at unlocking your draconic consciousness, essentially being a gateway to the actual mystical paths rather than one itself.<<

This matches EXACTLY what I have already written :)

 

>>From what Jeff's said, it seems to me that most EWF citizens just followed their old religions and gave some worship to the council on the side. Comparatively few actually engaged in draconic or other mystical stuff. <<

Also matches exactly my thoughts after reading around discussions

 

>>I don't think Orlanth Dragonfriend is present in modern-day Pavis <<

Agreed officially, but more MGF not agreed :)

 

>>unless Argrath or the players somehow resurrect it.<<

Again for MGF, of course he has!!! :)

 

>>The only draconic cult left in the region is the Sun Dragon, and that's only because of its sole worshipper Windwhistler.<<

Yes

 

>> I think the HW Dragonfriend cult I was thinking of was on Wesley Quadros' Glorantha site, but it's been taken down.<<

That rings a bell. I used to chat with Wesley. Ever here of him anymore? Any contact details anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

 

[AlHazred]

I thought I remembered an official HW writeup of Ingolf Dragonfriend in Thunder Rebels, but I can only find it in King of Sartar. Hmmm... Weird!

 

EDIT: I may have misremembered his writeup in Heortling Mythology, which says "Dragon Powers were Ingolf's to have, and he followed the Fantazandar Paths to challenge and develop his draconic self (his Arangorf). He acquired the Seven Powers, and spent most of his time working to perfect them." There's also this part: "'Common Worship' developed from the Complacentine practices. People began to want something in exchange for their attention, as they got from normal worship of Orlanth and Ernalda. The first sacrifices that were made obtained nothing, but then some great leaders heroquested and set up paths for worship. In general, these leaders became the 'pathway to power,' and were in effect theistic dragon heroes who were worshipped and gave magic. Several of these cults became popular. Among those are the Cult of Draconic Love and the Cult of Ingolf. The Golden Dragon Society that eventually took over Dara Happa was another one of these. The Way of the Dragon was one that was Orlanthi-like in social structure and understanding, but different in its source of magic." In HeroQuest 2E terms, I guess this made Ingolf a common religion which provided Talents to its worshippers? Not sure how that translates in RQG.

Edited March 4, 2022 by AlHazred
Found reference

[Leingod]

Arangorf I can't much speak on. Orlanth as he relates to the Draconic Path, though, I have a lot of (meandering and probably nonsensical) thoughts about.

First of all, even the most staunchly anti-dragon of Orlanthi still ultimately confess a draconic aspect to at least some of Orlanth's power; the myth of Orlanth slaying Sh'harkazeel has him take the Dragon Power for his own along with the dragon's severed head and the knowledge of the Four Sacred Breaths. The "draconic" version of the myth changes almost nothing except the context; by the act of slaying Sh'harkazeel, Orlanth granted it utuma, in gratitude for which it gave Orlanth the aforementioned powers. The difference between "Orlanth Dragonbreaker" and "Orlanth Dragonfriend," then, differs only by the slimmest of margins, and what changes isn't Orlanth's actions or even really his motivations, but the attitude of the dragon towards what Orlanth is doing and Orlanth's understanding of what he's doing.

I would posit, then, that Alakoring Dragonbreaker had an "orthodox" understanding of the power he was wielding and refuted the draconic interpretation of it, and that the EWF - due to their misunderstanding and misconceptions about the Draconic Path - had the wrong attitude towards it, and so were not prepared to properly receive it and attain the benefits of utuma.

(I would also posit, given all the above, that Orlanth's "Liberating Bolt," which apotheosized Sartar and others, was in fact an expression of this draconic power that Orlanth received from Sh'harkazeel)

There's an adventure in the Sartar Companion, "The Treasure of Two Face Hill," which seems to confirm this, IMO. One of the ways you can deal with a rampaging Dream Dragon is to learn the Dragonbreaker power and try to slay it in combat. If you do so, the dragon welcomes the heroes with these words:

Quote

At last, you have come. I have been waiting for the world to adjust to my liberation and send you. I welcome you, my utuma. Strike swiftly and awaken me. Let us purify ourselves and begin the ceremony.

Before doing its level best to kill them (presumably, this is the "purify ourselves" part of the ceremony). Afterwards it's even explicitly stated that the dragons see Dragonbreaking as a form of utuma, by which one can liberate a dragon from its physical form. In other words, it doesn't really matter whether the one who wields the power believes themselves to be breaking or liberating the dragon; what matters is that the dragon is spiritually ready to receive liberation, which the EWF and Arangolf were not, due to their flawed understanding.

This sort of reminds me of the old Buddhist koan, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." The prevailing interpretation of this koan by Zen Buddhism is that to turn the Buddha into a religious icon separate from yourself is to delude yourself and divert yourself from the path of obtaining Buddhahood, which is after all the ultimate goal of following the teachings of Buddhism at all. Thus you must "kill" your mistaken belief that the Buddha-nature exists outside of yourself if you are ever to get back on the right path. In that sense, you could argue that Alakoring slaying Arangolf was in fact vanquishing an erroneous dead-end, and that he was effectively clearing the way for a more correct view of "Draconic Orlanth" to come into being later, even if he himself certainly didn't conceive of it that way.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Leingod

[Akhôrahil]

20 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

What publication was that in?

Mongoose RQ1 Cults of Glorantha, volume 1, and (longer) in Mongoose RQ2 Cults of Glorantha.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

I personally have the thought that in RQG terms, Draconism means that you would replace your Beast rune with a Dragon rune, so that you now have a Man/Dragon duality instead.

[Brian Duguid]

On 2/15/2020 at 3:22 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

The 1620s are so jam-packed with events that I need to really read up on the timeline of events someday, as character are jumping all over the place constantly in my mind. Been a while since I read King of Sartar, but it is of course intentionally obtuse, so not sure how useful it is for this sort of thing.

See https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/timeline-dragonpass/

[Richard S.]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I personally have the thought that in RQG terms, Draconism means that you would replace your Beast rune with a Dragon rune, so that you now have a Man/Dragon duality instead.

I don't think any runes should be replaced; your natural impulses are always there, draconic mysticism just gradually teaches how to ignore them. I think I'd have prospective draconics take Dragonewt as a completely separate rune, but working kind of like the Illumination skill: initially it's just a chance for you to become Illuminated (aka awakening your Draconic Consciousness), but it can be used to learn and use dragon powers after that happens.

[Richard S.]

 

13 hours ago, AlHazred said:

 

I think you're thinking of Heroquest 1e, 2e got rid of common religions and talents and all that mess.

In RQG terms I think they'd just be small Rune cults, like the Sun Dragon's cult or the Path of Immanent Mastery.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I personally have the thought that in RQG terms, Draconism means that you would replace your Beast rune with a Dragon rune, so that you now have a Man/Dragon duality instead.

The beast rune already is a dragon rune. It stands for the ancestral dragon Hykim (and Mikyh).

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I don't think any runes should be replaced; your natural impulses are always there, draconic mysticism just gradually teaches how to ignore them. I think I'd have prospective draconics take Dragonewt as a completely separate rune, but working kind of like the Illumination skill: initially it's just a chance for you to become Illuminated (aka awakening your Draconic Consciousness), but it can be used to learn and use dragon powers after that happens.

the real question is what happens to a person with a Dragonewt rune if they are slain. Do they get a chance based on their rune to be reborn, dragonewt-style, instead of passing into Death?

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I personally have the thought that in RQG terms, Draconism means that you would replace your Beast rune with a Dragon rune, so that you now have a Man/Dragon duality instead.

That's not our approach at all. Draconic philosophy is not a mere switch of a Rune, but a radical rethinking of the cosmos and your role in it.

Here is a fantastically helpful essay from Greg on draconic philosophy:

Before attempting to understand what motivates a dragonewt it is necessary to first clear your mind of all previous notions you may have. Try to accept apparent paradoxes in their philosophy. Begin your understanding of them anew.

Dragonewt thinkers consider their species to be an accident of creation, but a fortunate one which was inevitable. Both the strength and weakness of the dragonewt race is their fragile bodies and the finite experiences they can learn each lifetime.

Dragonewt existence consists of a many-life struggle to acquire and then master a number of physical, emotional, and magical characteristics. Doing so will make the individual one with a dragon or, in more mundane terms, into a dragon itself. A side effect of this spiritual growth is the accumulation of magical powers. These can be viewed as being akin to spells, though they are acquired differently from Rune magic, spirit magic, or sorcery.

The progression of dragonewts through each body stage is gained by allowing the consciousness and experiences of the spirit to pass from body to body. When the mind and current body have acquired sufficient development the next hatching will be of the next body stage.

There are often minor body changes in each lifetime. This occurs because the unhatched, and soulless, body developing in the egg will adjust itself to house the powers being developed by the body living elsewhere. Thus all dragonewts of a single type may present different characteristics within their subtype.

The dragonewts believe that the object of this life series is for them to pass on to become great and infinite dragons. This fact is undeniable to them and proven every passing day. As they pass from stage to stage they become increasingly more powerful.

A seeming irony of their life is that the dragonewt regresses, become weaker and less suited for advancement every time that they use their powers. Each use of their immense magics gets the dragonewt more and more enmeshed in the problems of existence by creating debts which must be paid before passing onto perfect draconic being.

The dragonewt concept of honor is critical to understanding them. Honor to a dragonewt implies the right way to live, as determined by his personal understanding of the universe at that time. Each stage of dragonewt existence is expected to experience and participate in certain thought modes and thereby gain responsibility for their actions in that realm. When certain categories have been fulfilled the individual passes on to the next plateau of development.

If a dragonewt dies dishonorably then he will remain dead a number of days before rebirth. When he is reborn, his physical and magical abilities will have diminished. Shamed dragonewts are thus stuck with stunted personalities and abilities which mark their failures until worked out over several lifetimes.

Dragonewt honor is determined by whether or not the dragonewt is responsible for his actions in that range of emotional experience and whether or not he failed to control himself. If he did control himself (i.e. thought and decided properly on the right action) then it was an honorable thing. However, if he reacted emotionally then his actions were not honorable even if the results of his actions were correct. Dishonorable (emotional) reactions are likely to result in more entanglements, so lifetimes are spent in clearing up the mistakes of a century ago.

[Darius West]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:52 AM, YetAnotherArkat said:

Hello,

The Glorantha Wiki talks about Obduran and how he taught his followers to awaken Orlanth's Inner Dragon (Arangorf). Evidently Alakoring killed Arangorf and freed Orlanth. So I have two questions:

1. Anyone have insights into the origins of Arangorf and the relationship between Orlanth and dragons? (outside of History of the Heortling Peoples)

2. If Alakoring put an end to Draconic Orlanth, what's with Argrath and his draconic insights?

When Orlanth left his initiation among the hostile deities who called themselves his uncles, he was told a final mystery "There is a Dragon who follows you".  This bugged Orlanth, and he became a dragon slayer.  In time however he eventually came to listen to the Dragons, and learned their path.

This mystery went quiescent until the Second Age when a trickster in Dragon Pass discovered the way to learn Dragonewt Magic, via the dangerous split brain split tongue surgery.  This opened a large new military opportunity for Dragon Pass and began the EWF.

In terms of what the mystery is, the Dragonewts have their own take on Glorantha that is founded in the 4th magical path, and the only one for which we have precious little magic system, namely Mysticism.

Much the way the Mostali see Glorantha as a big machine, the Dragonewts see all living things in Glorantha as Dragonewts who have left the path and become heretics (not that Dragonewts are much into punishing heretics; they do that to themselves via stupid rebirths).  The Dragonewts believe that everyone has the ability to follow their path and become a True Dragon, but their path often seems extremely weird to non-Dragonewts because Dragonewts don't live, reproduce, and die the way normal beings do.  The Gods themselves are actually a long way upon the Dragon Path, and would find it easy to become Dragons, but they are lost in 'heresy' so they remain static pseudo-reflections of humanity, which is more demeaning to them than the Gods themselves would be prepared to accept.

Arangorf became the expression of Orlanth the Dragon.  He taught Orlanth Draconic Illumination and allowed him access to Dragon Magic.  Alakoring killed Arangorf using Orlanth's manifestation as Dragonslayer, which was actually (surprise surprise) a form of the Sacred Utuma Ritual, which speeds Dragons on to a safe rebirth without ties to their former body.  Alakoring rejected the Arangorf mysteries and his cult helped purge and extinguish the EWF and surviving adherents to Orlanth's Draconic Path.

That was all a long time ago now.  Argrath doesn't see things the way Alakoring and his people did, and instead sees the possibility of marching dinosaur armies over the Lunar Empire like in the good ol' days of the EWF.  Argrath knows Orlaront Dragonfriend, the notable "terrorist" behind the Dragonrise.  Argrath sees immense military opportunity in gaining the Dragonewts as allies, and dinosaurs as support troops (but perhaps not trying to turn the Rockwoods into Mega-Dragon this time), much like in the EWF.  What this means for the Orlanthi is a renaissance of Draconic mysticism within the Sartar Magical Alliance, with Argrath's usual magical/mystical pragmatism and Godlearnerism to create power gaming synergies not seen since the Second Age.

[Soccercalle]

Can a human have a Dragonewt Rune? 

[Richard S.]

15 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Can a human have a Dragonewt Rune? 

As far as we know, no, but it might have been done somehow in the EWF by people trying to turn into Dragonewts or even Dragons.

I made a forum post a while back theorizing about theistic EWF cults and gaining a Dragon rune through them, and JRE made a convincing argument for using the Dragonewt rune instead, but so far the official stance on gaining form runes other than beast/man seems to be that it makes you no longer really human. At least in RQG's Glorantha (shamans' connection to Spirit seems to be via their Fetch, rather than gaining it as a personal affinity).

[metcalph]

17 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Can a human have a Dragonewt Rune? 

Orlaront Dragonfriend has a Dragonewt Rune according to the Sartar Companion p72.

[davecake]

In terms of RQG Runes, Dragonewts should not have the Man rune. Even though elves, trolls, dwarves etc have the Man rune, so it clearly doesn’t represent humanity, it does represent mortality, and dragonewts are not mortal but ever reborn. They do not fear death, but seek only to get off the cycle of reincarnation, generally by becoming a dragon. So this might be their dragon rune. If they have an opposing Rune to Dragon, it would be Beast - giving into their emotional and unthinking side. 
But Illumination can make Opposed Runes unopposed, and can also overrule the influence of Passions and Runes. And draconic consciousness is in some major ways the same as Illumination, presumingly in these ways, the most basic. I think the first step into higher level draconic consciousness for a dragonewt is the same as becoming a Beaked Dagonewt, and roughly equivalent to human Illumination into draconic consciousness, though probably a dragonewt only gets to gain the benefits (perhaps even roll for Illumination) on ‘death’. 

In RQ2 the dragonewt effort to reconcile the opposing sides of their natures was represented by trying to reduce both of the two side of their nature to nothing, in RQG it could be represented by increasing both to 100% while continuing to keep them under control of the higher nature. It could also be having Passions for dragonewt Honor, that they must laboriously increase to 100% by right action, or Passions for various entanglements that they must laboriously reduce through repaying their debts of Honor, or scores (Passion or otherwise) for the paired character traits unique to each stage (with a new pair generated at the next). 
Rules are arbitrary game conventions, as long as they represent the right behaviour and rewards etc it doesn’t matter much whether they are scores that go up or down. Once they have attained the requirements for the next level, continued living at the lower level has no purpose, so utuma. These are all possible rules that replicate or expand on Greg’s old rules in RQ2 WF 14. But we don’t need them unless we want dragonewt PCs, and we may not. They certainly might provide inspiration for mysticism rules though. 

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

In terms of RQG Runes, Dragonewts should not have the Man rune.

I agree. What rune do the Magisaurs receive, though? They stop being dragonewts, after all.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

In terms of RQG Runes, Dragonewts should not have the Man rune.

I fully agree

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Even though elves, trolls, dwarves etc have the Man rune, so it clearly doesn’t represent humanity,

for sure

1 hour ago, davecake said:

it does represent mortality

what about trees, beasts, etc... is a chicken mortal ? I think so, but without man rune. So I disagree on this point

 

in my opinion, it seems to me that it represents more sentient + mortal (*). Something like "those who will be judged once dead, based on what they did, what they chose to do"

and here is the difference between mortal with and mortal without

those who die without may join their otherworld without any judgement. Maybe they need some mundane world's help, like [peaceful cut] to join a nice one.

 

Maybe it is more specific : sentient + mortal + shape (= head, arms, feet, ...), and there are other species (wyrms ?) with something else.

 

 

 

 

 

* my "+" means "AND"  of course

[davecake]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about trees, beasts, etc... is a chicken mortal ? I think so, but without man rune.

The Man Rune represents Grandfather Mortal. All intelligent humanoid mortals. 
 

So no chickens, Magisaurs, dragonewts or unitelligent monkeys. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by davecake

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Man Rune represents Grandfather Mortal. All intelligent humanoid mortals. 
 

So no chickens, Magisaurs, dragonewts or unitelligent monkeys. 

ah you reassure me, that is not the rune of mortals but sentient humanoid mortals

we are aligned in this case 🙂