Kero Fin's Masculinity

[Bohemond]

Something unusual just occurred to me. In Smoldering Ruin, Kero Fin is described as "rising higher" to meet Umath. That rather curiously inverts what is usually described as the gender dynamic of Earth and Sky--Air lies upon Earth and rains down on her. But here, Kero Fin is literally penetrating Umath in their copulation. She's an enormous penis thrusting up from the earth into the air. This suggests that maybe Kero Fin has a masculine side to her. 

[g33k]

Shhhh.

Most of the boys don't like to see these penetrating insights revealed in public!

Let's just say that when they make camp, most nomad-barbarian wives make sure they have some spare tent pegs.

To honor their respective Deities.

[Richard S.]

So what you're saying is that Kero Fin is a trap...

I knew Glorantha was anime, but I didn't know it was hentai as well.

[Joerg]

The copulation that produced Umath wasn't much better - it had the Spike protruding into the Sky (and also penetrating Earth). Kinky stuff, never mind the Oedipal component.

Umath was a pole dancer, spiralling around the Spike.

[Bohemond]

Wait, so Kero Fin pegged Umath and Orlanth was born. So which of them actually had the baby?....

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

So what you're saying is that Kero Fin is a trap...

I knew Glorantha was anime, but I didn't know it was hentai as well.

i know it's a joke but trap is a slur, please don't use it

but yeah dick + girl

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Something unusual just occurred to me. In Smoldering Ruin, Kero Fin is described as "rising higher" to meet Umath. That rather curiously inverts what is usually described as the gender dynamic of Earth and Sky--Air lies upon Earth and rains down on her. But here, Kero Fin is literally penetrating Umath in their copulation. She's an enormous penis thrusting up from the earth into the air. This suggests that maybe Kero Fin has a masculine side to her. 

She's a standing giantess.  If she had a penis, she would be smaller separate peak about 45% of the way up her body, about where her sacred cave is. 

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Something unusual just occurred to me. In Smoldering Ruin, Kero Fin is described as "rising higher" to meet Umath. That rather curiously inverts what is usually described as the gender dynamic of Earth and Sky--Air lies upon Earth and rains down on her. But here, Kero Fin is literally penetrating Umath in their copulation. She's an enormous penis thrusting up from the earth into the air. This suggests that maybe Kero Fin has a masculine side to her. 

I personally disagree on the penetration aspect. Umath's realm would truly be the Middle Air, and it would make sense for Kero Fin to rise up to bridge the gap.

Sometimes an eight mile mountain is just an eight mile mountain.

[Bohemond]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I personally disagree on the penetration aspect. Umath's realm would truly be the Middle Air, and it would make sense for Kero Fin to rise up to bridge the gap.

Sometimes an eight mile mountain is just an eight mile mountain.

Sometimes a giant stone dick sticking up for miles into the air is just a mountain? I'm a bit skeptical, especially given the rather profoundly gendered and fertility-driven nature of Glorantha.

[Akhôrahil]

Kero Fin’s is bigger than Lodril’s? Oh, the shame!

Edited February 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Richard S.]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i know it's a joke but trap is a slur, please don't use it

It is? This is the first I've heard of that. Guess ya learn something new every day.

[Sir_Godspeed]

It wouldn't be the only time Umath did the birthing (or budding, I guess) himself. Serenha was of born the winds of his wake. 

Still, I'm not entirely sold on the phallicism of Kero Fin. I won't poo-poo the interpretation, but I just don't see it explaining anymore more than what we already know. 

That being said, given Kero Fin's association with Maran Gor, if any Earth Goddess developed a phallus, it would be her I reckon. 

13 hours ago, Richard S. said:

It is? This is the first I've heard of that. Guess ya learn something new every day.

Content Warning: Transphobia below.

It's a bit of a long story that involves violence against trans women (including murder) followed legal pleas from the usually male perpetrators, that they be let off the hook because the trans women were "tricking"/"trapping" them, implying that the violence was an adequate response to the surprise (and sometimes not so much surprise) of finding out they were transgender. It has a certain precedence of working too, unfortunately. But you're not the only one surprised by this, I only learnt about it a few months ago. I was mostly familiar with the "geek culture/anime" meaning as well, which has a more comedic meaning usually focusing on male-identifying crossdressers, albeit with potentially the same fundamentally similar undertone (ie. "those subversive trans women are trying to corrupt us hetero men by hiding their true nature", etc.). I'm not an expert on this though, so if I said something wrong, feel free to correct me. 

Also, sorry for once again derailing a thread, please return to your regularly scheduled Glorantha musings.

 

EDIT: After a second reading, I've altered my post to add a content warning tag and to preserve the flow of the thread better. Edited February 20, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Ali the Helering]

Of course, it needn't be phallic. 

"Hey Umath, even you should be able to find this!" 

Yes, very questionable taste, but no worse really. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

the actual phallic Wind deity is Serenha. You might remember her as Entekos, the female Umath of Peloria with the male name. The Dara Happans say she's the same as the Earth Goddess, which makes no sense, but they are worshipped together as a pair to bring rain.

Course the only Earth I know of that's in the Middle Air is Sedenya, not Serenha

 

oh

[Bohemond]

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It wouldn't be the only time Umath did the birthing (or budding, I guess) himself. Serenha was of born the winds of his wake. 

Still, I'm not entirely sold on the phallicism of Kero Fin. I won't poo-poo the interpretation, but I just don't see it explaining anymore more than what we already know. 

I don't know that I'm actually trying to persuade anyone of this. I just find it...amusing. Kero Fin is the most obviously phallic deity in Glorantha that I can think of. I mean, 8 miles of stone dick is really hard to miss, and yet somehow no one's noticed this before. And you're right that it doesn't seem to explain anything we already know. I'm more spitballing an idea here and see what emerges from it. That's how I do a lot of my best thinking. 

 

Quote

It's a bit of a long story that involves violence against trans women (including murder) followed legal pleas from the usually male perpetrators, that they be let off the hook because the trans women were "tricking"/"trapping" them, implying that the violence was an adequate response to the surprise (and sometimes not so much surprise) of finding out they were transgender. It has a certain precedence of working too, unfortunately. But you're not the only one surprised by this, I only learnt about it a few months ago. I was mostly familiar with the "geek culture/anime" meaning as well, which has a more comedic meaning usually focusing on male-identifying crossdressers, albeit with potentially the same fundamentally similar undertone (ie. "those subversive trans women are trying to corrupt us hetero men by hiding their true nature", etc.). I'm not an expert on this though, so if I said something wrong, feel free to correct me. 

Also, sorry for once again derailing a thread, please return to your regularly scheduled Glorantha musings.

Don't apologize. These kinds of conversations need to happen in the gaming world, which is often a bastion of sexist assumptions simply because no one ever points them out. Glorantha is an amazing setting for thinking about issues around sex and gender--it somehow manages to be both profoundly about fertility and gender and yet has room for a lot of really different takes on sex and gender. It's a good reminder that there are a lot of different ways to think about these issues than the way contemporary Western culture does. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Bohemond

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

I don't know that I'm actually trying to persuade anyone of this. I just find it...amusing. Kero Fin is the most obviously phallic deity in Glorantha that I can think of. I mean, 8 miles of stone dick is really hard to miss, and yet somehow no one's noticed this before. And you're right that it doesn't seem to explain anything we already know. I'm more spitballing an idea here and see what emerges from it. That's how I do a lot of my best thinking. 

 

No worries, there are so many crazy ideas put up in this forum I've loved since joining that I wouldn't want people to stop.

[g33k]

Alternatively -- since it's "just" the tallest (by FAR the tallest but far from the "only") mountain in a range of mountains:

 

 

it's the Goddess flipping a middle finger

 

[g33k]

But yeah, I think the phallus / penetration simile has a LOT of merit.

Don't I recall that someone who climbs to the very summit HAS in fact gotten to the Middle Air?

 

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Bohemond said:

...  Don't apologize. These kinds of conversations need to happen in the gaming world, which is often a bastion of sexist assumptions simply because no one ever points them out...

+1

I think it's worth noting that the term is relatively new, not widely known, and still seems to be evolving.

Googling 'round, I see more than one reaction along the lines of "shit, that's a slur?  how did I not know this?!"

I conclude there are some regional (and/or subcultural) settings where the "slur" use has not been so clear.   

It takes only a few assholes to "taint" a usage.  But the origination of transfolk supposedly "entrapping" straights (and the straights claiming the right to do violence to protect their "offended sensibilities") is MUCH harder to overcome.

This sort of BS is really worth knowing about, so we don't carry it forward; not-knowing almost guarantees doing the wrong thing.

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 hours ago, g33k said:

But the origination of transfolk supposedly "entrapping" straights (and the straights claiming the right to do violence to protect their "offended sensibilities") is MUCH harder to overcome.

also it's a legal defense for assaulting, raping, or murdering us in nearly all states, it's called the Trans Panic defense

and it's used a lot

[Ali the Helering]

18 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

also it's a legal defense for assaulting, raping, or murdering us in nearly all states, it's called the Trans Panic defense

and it's used a lot

Whilst absolutely agreeing with your sentiments, I don't think it is overly common as an issue in Kerofinela, and I am sure the original user of the term did it in all innocence.

Thread drift?

[Qizilbashwoman]

14 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Whilst absolutely agreeing with your sentiments, I don't think it is overly common as an issue in Kerofinela, and I am sure the original user of the term did it in all innocence.

Thread drift?

21 hours ago, g33k said:

But yeah, I think the phallus / penetration simile has a LOT of merit.

Don't I recall that someone who climbs to the very summit HAS in fact gotten to the Middle Air?

No, to Sky. Kero Fin passes over the Middle Air and the Moon straight to the Sky. Kero Fin is an axis mundi, which are usually not dicks, imho. They are typically considered to be more like spines connecting the earth to the skyworld and, in some cosmologies, to the underworld. I don't know about that bit for Kero Fin.

She's got a vagina on it, as someone pointed out.

the real dick girl is the topic of the Entekosiad, which is one of my favorite Glorantha works.

argument, which I've made kind of ad nauseum: she's got Umath's name, she's called "Umath's shadow", she is called by Umath's (male) name, she wields an Addi: a staff or club akin to a vajra that elsewhere is only held by male phallic deities, including the sex and alcohol deity whose name I forget, by Turos, by Lodril.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[Bill the barbarian]

21 hours ago, g33k said:

Googling 'round, I see more than one reaction along the lines of "shit, that's a slur?  how did I not know this?!"

 

Saw the same thing but decided to give Qizilbashwoman’s comment a like anyway. Just because it is a new thing that trans folk are taking it back or that some do not know/think it is a slur or for any of a a dozen reasons that people argue that the word is not negative, if one person is harmed by it, all are harmed. I do believe an injury to one is an injury to all. As per their (?) request, I will not be using the term in any way shape or form to refer to  trans folk.

As per a few other's comments, sorry for the thread drift...

cheers

Edited February 21, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Clophiroth]

As a transwoman, I didn't mind the word "trap" before I knew its story, as I only had heard about it in anime contexts. Once I learnt about its history and trans panic defense (fortunately, that doesn't work in Spanish courts, so I never encountered it until I started reading more America-centric LGBT sources) I started to find it extremely distasteful and offensive.

 

This is an interesting thread, by the way. I'm a Glorantha newbie (my experience is mostly related to KoDP and Six Ages, and I've never played either RQ or HQ), but I find these threads very interesting. I like the kind of fantasy which Glorantha embodies, specially when it deals with gender, which very few RPG settings dare to do!

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Clophiroth said:

I like the kind of fantasy which Glorantha embodies, specially when it deals with gender, which very few RPG settings dare to do

well Stafford had very strong feelings about gender from the very start so it's a feature, not a bug