Sword Trance et all beats shields?

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, GAZZA said:

I can see the point. If I have 190% Sword and you have 110% Sword, then we're basically playing "let's see who criticals, specials, or fumbles first". Even though  my skill is a lot higher than yours, we both have a 95% chance to hit and 1% fumble chance, so really it's just my 38% special versus your 22% special that matters (I am assuming we both would take no damage on a successful parry). That can take a fair while to play out. Note that I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing, but I do get why some people would think so.

The longest combat to play out I've had to date with RQG was between two characters in a ritual fight (i.e. skill + inspiration only, decent armor, no magic) where both were just over 100% so minimal bump down. Reminded me a lot of old RQ3 battles which were even worse to play out.

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I have, routinely, in other BRP games. 10-20 rounds of people doing the I Attack/You Parry/You Attack/I Parry routine (and made even worse in games where even if when you manage to land a hit, it will probably just bounce on armor - RQ avoids that part, at least).

Yep. And it can really bring the game to a grind.

6 hours ago, GAZZA said:

I am not convinced that the core rule of switching that to a 100%/20% contest is particularly fair though; I go from effectively 1.5-2 times your skill to 5 times your skill, and I don't think that's really justified.

I'm not convinced of that either. I'm toying with the idea of staying with the subtraction method, but halving either the difference between the skills or the difference between the higher skill and 100) before applying the bump down.  In the case of the 190%/110% ratio that could work to either:

1) half the difference between:  80% difference = 40% drop.  Becomes 100%/70%. 

2) half the difference over 100:  90% difference = 45% drop.  Becomes 100%/65%. (Closer to the optimal of 100%/58% to reflect the actual skill ratio)

[Akhôrahil]

14 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1) half the difference between:  80% difference = 40% drop.  Becomes 100%/70%. 

2) half the difference over 100:  90% difference = 45% drop.  Becomes 100%/65%. (Closer to the optimal of 100%/58% to reflect the actual skill ratio)

My "only reduce down to half" solution gives:

* lower has 110%, for a 55% drop for both. Becomes 135% / 55%.

[PhilHibbs]

On 3/3/2020 at 8:22 AM, Glorion said:

What correction? Where? Definitely correcting that spell is badly needed, and certainly making it a true trance like Arrow Trance is obvious, and pumping a couple hundred magic points into it as written could be, er, problematic, but I haven't seen one.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-14-rune-magic/

Quote

Axe Trance (page 318)

Does this have any actual “trance” features as per, e.g., Arrow Trance?

I treat them the same. 

Obviously, one would need to modify the exact features…

But will the the Axe Trance’d only be aware of themselves and their foes?  Unaware e.g. of falling allies, larger strategic considerations?  If all the foes are fallen before the spell expires, do they just stand ready for more foes?

If the Tranced character has run out of targets, I’d say the spell ends, even if prematurely. Humakt has little interest in his warriors standing around pointlessly when they could be going off to get into more trouble elsewhere. The same could be said for Aldrya or Babeester Gor. The rules don’t specifically spell this out but the gamemaster should be able to interpret the situation that way. 

Similarly, casting Extension on spells like this should only be useful for so long as the spell is useful. If, as a gamemaster, you want to have adventurers running around in a coldblooded murder zone, by all means allow it, but if you don’t, remember that the gods themselves are linked to the Runes that these spells are cast with, the Rune points the spells were cast with were granted by those gods themselves, and the use of the spells should be in service to the god, or at least not wasted on idle tasks.  

Things that fall outside the province of the target/Trance dynamic are ignored, which is why it would be horrible to keep one of these spells going for longer than is absolutely necessary.

Sword Trance (page 346)

Can a Humakti use Extension to have Sword Trance up for a year? 

Now, I’ve said no because a) (Doyleist answer) I don’t want that degree of power to last that long and b) (Watsonian answer) it’s a trance and the Humakti is totally focussed on his weapon and on fighting while it is active and even the most Death oriented character needs to eat, sleep and crap from time to time. 

Is this reasonable? Should there be guidance about how much semi-permanent magic should be possible? 

Correct. You can’t keep a Sword Trance active for a year, unless you can for some reason keep fighting without sleep, eating, self-care, conversation, travel, etc. for that year. 

Though the “as-written” mechanics of the spell and Extension seem to indicate it’s possible, the gamemaster should interpret the purpose of the spell and its use within the mythic framework of Glorantha. If it makes no sense to remain active, then it should end when it feels appropriate.

Sure, you could say "that's not a correction, it's only an opinion", but that's probably all you're going to get. Maybe it will be incorporated into the spell writeup in GaGoG, I don't know if anyone who has an advance copy of that could comment.

Edited March 4, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Yes, you can use other tactics, whatever - that's essentially admitting the problem, since you wouldn't have to resort to that otherwise.

No, we used said tactics from the beginning. In fact, that was one of the point that draw us to RQ (especially RQIII): the rules allowed and even promote such tactics. This was not linked to high scores, but perhaps our groups were special.

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

That means:

1 - that I have been lucky, not having to endure this.

2 - that this rule (that I dislike) has merits for groups like yours.

I think you just had a good GM (or are a good GM yourself, if you were the GM in that group). As a GM, I have witnessed this kind of boring back-and-forth combat scene and thought to myself that there must be a better way. It took me a little while to realize that this "better way" doesn't involve house rules, but involves having my NPCs make more tactical choices, retreating and flanking, using archers, etc. in order to break things up. Of course, being a bad tactician myself, that meant losing more spectacularly to the PCs, but I guess my players were happy to both win and have more varied combat scenes.

Semi-off topic but my other realizations at the time were: (1) come up with more varied terrains than "there's a few trees over there and some rocks here" (more original/varied terrain features mean more opportunities for maneuvers), and (2) start combat without a battlemat, even if eventually we do use minis. The reason for the second one is that unless you have a gigantic custom-made battlemat, most battlemats (including the common biggest models available on the market) are too small to comfortably place archers and other long distance enemies (this is even truer in a modern setting with firearms). This means that by the time we start the combat and place the minis down, the melee combatants only need two or three rounds to close onto the archers. This wasn't so much a problem for my NPCs, which I was happy to see mowed down by the PC brutes, but it was a source of frustration for the PC archers who felt they were not as effective as they should be.

[Glorion]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-14-rune-magic/

Sure, you could say "that's not a correction, it's only an opinion", but that's probably all you're going to get. Maybe it will be incorporated into the spell writeup in GaGoG, I don't know if anyone who has an advance copy of that could comment.

That's progress at least. The problem with it is that all too few RQ GM's will know that. And it doesn't solve the problem of the spell being just too damn gross and abusable. Give it one point of Extension, pump in a couple hundred MP's, cast a day of Extended Invisibility extension, and maybe a few other things to avoid magical or spiritual detection, and you can visit that big battle between Argrath and Jar-Eel and kill both of 'em without breaking a sweat. In my house rules, besides making it a trance I rewrote it down to reasonableness, I hope others will do the same. 

[Thaz]

11 hours ago, Glorion said:

 and you can visit that big battle between Argrath and Jar-Eel and kill both of 'em without breaking a sweat. 

Except these two will be running levels of munchkinry which will make your ears bleed and your eyes burn.

Argrath has the backing of the White Bull Society. In effect his allied spirit could be the Society Wyter. Which means it may have a POW of hundreds or thousands. As just one wrinkle I could use. And that's before he founds his own magical millitary units.

Jar-Eel is a demi-goddess and is semi-divine. 

They can both throw _serious_ amounts of mojo about and your couple of hundred MP aint gunna scratch them. 

[Kloster]

16 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I think you just had a good GM (or are a good GM yourself, if you were the GM in that group).

It's true that our GMs were good (and I was not part of them), but most of the tactics originated with the players, not the GMs.

16 hours ago, lordabdul said:

(1) come up with more varied terrains than "there's a few trees over there and some rocks here" (more original/varied terrain features mean more opportunities for maneuvers),

Yes. How true. This is part of the reasons why I'm saying our GMs were good. The tactics were mostly the ones of the players, but their gameplay allowed us to play that way, by giving stories, terrains, situations, ... that enable creative acting.

16 hours ago, lordabdul said:

(2) start combat without a battlemat, ...

We used vertical whiteboard. The GM drawed everything he wanted and adapted the scale when needed.

[Glorion]

52 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Except these two will be running levels of munchkinry which will make your ears bleed and your eyes burn.

Argrath has the backing of the White Bull Society. In effect his allied spirit could be the Society Wyter. Which means it may have a POW of hundreds or thousands. As just one wrinkle I could use. And that's before he founds his own magical millitary units.

Jar-Eel is a demi-goddess and is semi-divine. 

They can both throw _serious_ amounts of mojo about and your couple of hundred MP aint gunna scratch them. 

That won't scratch 'em. But your 2000 or so percent sword skill from your couple of hundred MP would be another matter. Automatic crits are handy. Of course, you'd have to sneak up on them, that's what the Invisibility etc. is for.

[Thaz]

2 minutes ago, Glorion said:

That won't scratch 'em. But your 2000 or so percent sword skill from your couple of hundred MP would be another matter. Automatic crits are handy. Of course, you'd have to sneak up on them, that's what the Invisibility etc. is for.

Ah the joy of RQ. Anything your players can do the NPC's can do right back and this case they have access to entire cults of thousands of people magically power them. Not to mention extensive hero questing.

So go ahead and try it on the big guns and see what happens. 

 

[Glorion]

Just now, Thaz said:

Ah the joy of RQ. Anything your players can do the NPC's can do right back and this case they have access to entire cults of thousands of people magically power them. Not to mention extensive hero questing.

So go ahead and try it on the big guns and see what happens. 

 

Point taken, Argrath and Jar-eel have it too, as their single strongest combat powers, bigger than anything else they have going. So yeah, that means anyone with Sword or Ax or Mace Trance and access to lots of magic points is unstoppable by anyone without, pretty much. it's just so much grosser than any other combat spell as to be absurd. Battles get won based on how many soldiers on each side have Sword Trance, and a berserker with Sword Trance and Extension could personally put Nochet to the sword if in a bad mood. 

[Thaz]

6 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Point taken, Argrath and Jar-eel have it too, as their single strongest combat powers, bigger than anything else they have going. So yeah, that means anyone with Sword or Ax or Mace Trance and access to lots of magic points is unstoppable by anyone without, pretty much. it's just so much grosser than any other combat spell as to be absurd. Battles get won based on how many soldiers on each side have Sword Trance, and a berserker with Sword Trance and Extension could personally put Nochet to the sword if in a bad mood. 

Now if only PC's and other hero's had access to serious mojo I'd agree. However if you power up and go berserk in Nochet Market Square (note I may have had my Storm Bull on the rampage there recently) then you're going to be met by a)Market Warding Spells (in my exact example) b)People ducking into their clan homes and strong points (which will be warded) c)The Tribal/Clan/Government professional warriors responding (Think SWAT) and these guys are likely to be lead at least by pretty serious RuneMaster types...again backed by town or clan/tribal wyters.  Do you want to be on the receiving end of Sever Spirit from a Humakti with their regimental wyter backing it up? Come to that 100 Trollkin Slingers .....  

Effectively think about how common this is and how fast the response can be. People can fly and spirit travel and there are spirits watching in areas with population. . . this is not a non magical bunch of serfs with no response.  And if you are dripping in magic and pow and weapons and you are not well known and trusted:- you'll be watched. And possibly robbed if your not part of the social structures of the locals wherever that may be. 

[davecake]

If you think Sword/Axe Trance gives you much chance against Argrath, let alone Jar-Eel, you probably lack imagination, and are easily impressed by big numbers.

Argrath is not just an experienced heroquester, but the leader of a group of experienced heroquesters, so he has a really wide range of magic effects that might get used against you - sorcery, hero quest magic, powerful wyters and other spirits. Trickster magic, perhaps even dragon magic. And it’s a 1 point spell, that will be Dispelled in a round. There are multiple ways to keep people out of melee range for a round (Argrath is an Orlanthi Rune Lord-Priest type and can totally fly and has air elementals, for example). Hell, using the revised Trance spells, he might just stay out of melee range and Disrupt or missile weapon you to death, because it’s funny to watch someone with that much magic get really frustrated because their one trick doesn’t work (you don’t get to Dispel him, of course - you are in a trance). And lots of ways for him to take you out before you get close. The chance of anyone who is in a Trance, and so unable to cast other magic, getting close to one of them is  very, very low. 
Jar-Eel, for example is probably well over 100% at Sense Assassin herself, Argrath just has bodyguards who are (like almost everyone of that level - even Sor- Eel, a much less significant figure, has a bodyguard of 50 Yanafals cultists and at least a couple of Yanafals rune lords, for example. Fazzur similarly has a dozen or so. Plus sorcerous detection and Defense spells spells, guardian spirits, etc). And imagine that Jar-Eel has Sword Trance herself - and will have a spirit casting it on her as she closes, kicking in just so she gets one good blow against an opponent, because she assumes it gets dispelled after 1 round by anyone serious, but that’s worth it if attacking someone at her level. 

Anything you can do, they likely can do better - and much more besides. 

5 hours ago, Glorion said:

yeah, that means anyone with Sword or Ax or Mace Trance and access to lots of magic points is unstoppable by anyone without,

its not going to take down Argrath that easy, or even a high Lunar noble that has been preparing for Dart Competition their whole life, but someone like Temertain? Sure, maybe - if no one nearby can muster a decent Dispel or Dismiss Magic to get rid of that 1 point spell in time to stop them. Oh, wait - practically everyone can muster a good Dismiss Magic - it’s common Rune magic. 
And that’s if they don’t, say.. hit them with arrows that they can’t Heal, get elemental to take them down, hit them with serious magic, disable them with a Mindblast or Madness.

And less powerful opponents generally have access to some subset of these tactics, just not as many options, not as powerful, not as fast. Trance is a powerful tactic, for sure. But it’s one tactic, and quite defeatable. 

5 hours ago, Glorion said:

berserker with Sword Trance and Extension could personally put Nochet to the sword if in a bad mood. 

Why bother with Extension when they will probably be be dead in under 5 minutes? 
Again - they could hack people up, until they ran into a few people with a bit of decent magic. 
 

[dumuzid]

 

7 hours ago, Glorion said:

a berserker with Sword Trance and Extension could personally put Nochet to the sword if in a bad mood. 

Unless they've got Darksee or equivalent magic the first Kimantoring response team up against that berserker can take most of the Sword Trance bonus away just by having their Argan Argari shroud the offender in a nice deep Create Shadow.  Then an Orlanth initiate with Darksee (or Darksense) can crack em with a Thunderbolt, and a Gorian can step in to chop up what's left.

e: or ex-Kimantoring House Guards after the Esrolian Civil War, but the same spread of magic and war cults applies

Edited March 5, 2020 by dumuzid

[Rodney Dangerduck]

52 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

 

Unless they've got Darksee or equivalent magic the first Kimantoring response team up against that berserker can take most of the Sword Trance bonus away just by having their Argan Argari shroud the offender in a nice deep Create Shadow.  Then an Orlanth initiate with Darksee (or Darksense) can crack em with a Thunderbolt, and a Gorian can step in to chop up what's left.

e: or ex-Kimantoring House Guards after the Esrolian Civil War, but the same spread of magic and war cults applies

All true.  But that's a heck of a lot of work to take out a guy who used a mere 1 point Rune Spell and some MP.

The point isn't that Sword Trance is unbeatable.  The point is that the effort to take out Sword Trance is far far incommensurate with the effort to cast the Sword Trance.  And the point is that nobody is saying "Oh my god, he cast Bear's Strength (or some other low value Rune Spell), everybody flee for your lives and take cover while we call on the SWAT team".

[Glorion]

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

 

Unless they've got Darksee or equivalent magic the first Kimantoring response team up against that berserker can take most of the Sword Trance bonus away just by having their Argan Argari shroud the offender in a nice deep Create Shadow.  Then an Orlanth initiate with Darksee (or Darksense) can crack em with a Thunderbolt, and a Gorian can step in to chop up what's left.

e: or ex-Kimantoring House Guards after the Esrolian Civil War, but the same spread of magic and war cults applies

Yeah, I suppose he'd get taken down one way or another after his/her first couple hundred kills. But Create Shadow would be useless. It'd reduce the Sword percentage from 2000 to ... 1925? And given the RQG parry rules, it would take about a thousand Gorians to take him/her down-unless of course they had Ax Trance *and* access to equally sizeable numbers of MP's. Ax Trance and just their own MP's, maybe a hundred.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Glorion

[davecake]

5 hours ago, Glorion said:

Yeah, I suppose he'd get taken down one way or another after his/her first couple hundred kills

Well, if he somehow managed to find a part of the city where no one had any magic whatsoever. Because if he went anywhere else, all it would take is one person with access to common divine magic and a single rune point to say I want to Dismiss the magic making him hit people, and then he would just be standing around embarrassed at having wasted all those magic points. 
Presuming no one had Dispel Magic 2, of course, so they wouldn’t need to use rune magic, obviously. 
So most starting PCs would be able to shut them down by Dismissing the spell three times each, by SR 1 of the next round. 
Please stop with these ridiculous scenarios. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

26 minutes ago, davecake said:

Well, if he somehow managed to find a part of the city where no one had any magic whatsoever. Because if he went anywhere else, all it would take is one person with access to common divine magic and a single rune point to say I want to Dismiss the magic making him hit people, and then he would just be standing around embarrassed at having wasted all those magic points. 

It's not quite that easy. You have to have some way of "seeing" the spell you want to target (or at the very least knowing exactly what spell it was), otherwise default target selection is used, and a smart Humakti layers "bait" spells that get prioritized before the Sword Trance. 

Still, any ten initiates could just slap him with single-point Dispels. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@davecakeRead how Dismiss works.  You must "magically discern", or otherwise guess, the target spell, else it will hit defensive spells first.  Depending how the GM wants to play things, Sword Trance may be tricky, especially if the target also has Protection, Bladesharp, etc.

That said, I might try my favorite spell on the enTranced Humakti: Fanaticism.  That's actually my favorite spell against most anybody.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@davecakeRead how Dismiss works.  You must "magically discern", or otherwise guess, the target spell, else it will hit defensive spells first.  Depending how the GM wants to play things, Sword Trance may be tricky, especially if the target also has Protection, Bladesharp, etc.

I would rule that it matters whether you target the person other weapon. You could often just guess-target a Humakti's sword, assuming that there's something important there, probably Truesword.

[davecake]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's not quite that easy. You have to have some way of "seeing" the spell you want to target (or at the very least knowing exactly what spell it was), otherwise default target selection is used,

Guessing the spell is fine, clearly in the spell description. ‘The spell that is making him hit so well’ or even ‘the spell that has him in a trance obsessed with his Sword’ is fine. 
Of course they could guess wrong, and try to dispel the magic on his sword or something. But it’s unlikely to happen if the spell is pushed up to huge levels, and is moderately well known, IMO. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would rule that it matters whether you target the person other weapon. You could often just guess-target a Humakti's sword, assuming that there's something important there, probably Truesword.

That is a good point, you can target the person or sword.  Sword Trance affects the person though...

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, davecake said:

Guessing the spell is fine, clearly in the spell description. ‘The spell that is making him hit so well’ or even ‘the spell that has him in a trance obsessed with his Sword’ is fine. 

" However, it may be successfully cast against
a specific spell if the caster can magically discern or can
otherwise guess the specific spell." (my emphasis)

Calling out the exact spell might be enough. "The one that makes him fighty" is not that. Also, it takes no magic for Humakti to obsess about their swords.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

12 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

That said, I might try my favorite spell on the enTranced Humakti: Fanaticism.  That's actually my favorite spell against most anybody.

If you are going to try to sort them out with a single spirit magic spell, why not Demoralise or Befuddle so they don’t hit you at all, then disarm them by other means? 
It’s a cool trick to play occasionally, but over rated. Just stopping them from parrying isn’t a sure takedown, and they already are very restricted in what magic they can cast.
Good trick for the ZZer big troll to play though - the Humakti thinks it’s going to be fun until he realises his SR is higher. 

[davecake]

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Calling out the exact spell might be enough. "The one that makes him fighty" is not that.

It is - specific means specifying an effect or target, not naming the spell. Explicitly in the Dispel Magic description.