Kids as hostages/thralls

[Meleros]

Hi everybody, firt post here.

When an orlanthi clan raids its neighbours, does it take kids as hostages/thralls? If so, in the former case, how is their ransom calculated? In the latter, who is responsible for their initiation rites (if they are ever initiated at all)?

Edited April 3, 2020 by Meleros

[Kloster]

I see those hostages more the roman way. Hostages are 'voluntarily' sent to ensure peace treaties are not broken, more than forcibly taken during a raid.

To answer the second part of your question, I would say the ransom is a fraction (perhaps half) of the one of the father/mother.

For the third part, hostages are considered guest under the Orlanthi hospitality rule, so their initiation has to be considered, probably by an agreement between the partie.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Meleros said:

In the latter, who is responsible for their initiation rites (if they are ever initiated at all)?

I can't imagine that thralls get initiated.

[Loïc]

58 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I see those hostages more the roman way. Hostages are 'voluntarily' sent to ensure peace treaties are not broken, more than forcibly taken during a raid.

To answer the second part of your question, I would say the ransom is a fraction (perhaps half) of the one of the father/mother.

For the third part, hostages are considered guest under the Orlanthi hospitality rule, so their initiation has to be considered, probably by an agreement between the partie.

I agree with Kloster. I would add, both for Orlanthi hospitality and for initiation, that it can be adapted according to the circumstances of the agreement between the parties. Old hate between two clans (even feud), desire of one party to force the hostage to embrace an initiation opposed to his desire, or even to spoil the initiation... Imagine a hostage whose parents are challengers of their own clan chief: what would be the agreement between the chief and the other clan?...

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Loïc said:

Old hate between two clans (even feud), desire of one party to force the hostage to embrace an initiation opposed to his desire, or even to spoil the initiation... Imagine a hostage whose parents are challengers of their own clan chief: what would be the agreement between the chief and the other clan?...

Yes, in that case, the 'agreement' would be difficult to obtain. And in case of no agreement, everything goes.

My personal take is that the initiation is something so important that nobody would dare to interfere with the gods will.

[Martin]

6 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Yes, in that case, the 'agreement' would be difficult to obtain. And in case of no agreement, everything goes.

My personal take is that the initiation is something so important that nobody would dare to interfere with the gods will.

I know of an example where a mortal did interfere with the initiation of boys into the Orlanth cult...his name was Lokamayadon

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Meleros said:

Hi everybody, firt post here.

Welcome in the shark tank! You've chosen a heavily loaded topic for your debut.

Talking about slavery from the point of view of the slave-hunter or slave trader is quite uncomfortable for a big subset of this community. Nevertheless, slavery in all shades is part of the setting, and like with Cults of Terror, even if these slavers are only used as antagonists, one may want to have an idea how they rationalize their business.

And business it is, unless you are just rounding up sacrifices for unspeakable rites like feeding the Crimson Bat or the Ivory Plinth, or sending military to Delecti's Tower.

Depiction of children as victims of slavery, torture or undeath has always elicited very mixed reactions. The Wildling naval evacuation scene in Game of Thrones has one previously badass Wildling mother/fighter weep helplessly as she is shred to pieces by undead (enslaved, too) children, which did cause some upset.

 

6 hours ago, Meleros said:

When an orlanthi clan raids its neighbours, does it take kids as hostages/thralls? If so, in the former case, how is their ransom calculated? In the latter, who is responsible for their initiation rites (if they are ever initiated at all)?

In normal raids, the main settlement where most of the young and most of the infirm elders are to be expected rarely is the target for a neighborhood raid. 

Any attack on those is an escalation that would only occur in the later stage of a feud bent on mutual destruction. Isolated steads and smaller hamlets are at a greater risk, but most raiding will aim at herds and herdsmen, or isolated steads.

If your clan does keep thralls, you'll be looking for people who can actually do work, rather than take along people who cause work. That means your slave-catchers have little interest in children under the age of 8 or old and handicapped people (unless they have easily identifiable valuable skills).

Slave-catchers from outside of your culture (i.e. not bound to your systems of weregeld like Fonritians, Lunars, Praxians or Wolf Pirates in Orlanthi lands) may not hesitate to slay or helplessly abandon any unprofitable victim, with the possible exception of infants that keep their mothers available as wet-nurses. They will know and use ransom, as people to be ransomed back by their kin often bring a better price and are easier to maintain. They will still have to work for their upkeep in some way, if only serving as a source of entertainment for their captors in case of high status people with little practical skill the captors want to see put into action. Ransom prisoners are similar to the political hostages, but don't get that amount of acculturation and indoctrination that the political cases get.

 

 

Once someone has spent resources other than outfitting a slave-catching raid (which usually yields some plunder to pay for its initial investment), a slave has become a commodity subject to economical considerations.

Child slaves taken in a raid can be put to simple manual labor - Sartarite children taken by Praxians will be tasked with gathering dung for the campfires, sent to take away offal, and do other dirty or low status work that doesn't require any expertise.

Slaves may be commanded into sexual services, or permanently prevented from participating in such, but most Gloranthan cultures have taboos against sex with underage children. Some solve those by providing coming of age rites for slave children just old enough. Those rites may have little compassion and may include some mutilation, but then so  do many coming of age rites for their owners as well (circumcision is such a rite in the real world, and there are other, less permanent initiatory tortures that prepare the way from childhood to adulthood).

Once declared adult, former child slaves become eligible for the same demands that adult slaves have to suffer.

It depends on the culture whether the status as slave is given to children born of female slaves or not, usually regardless of who fathered the children.  Praxians and Pentans accept children born to their camps as free, regardless of who was their mother, but that has the down side that most adult males that they take and keep as slaves may be castrated to make sure that they don't sire any future nomads. The acceptance of the Vendref as a self-replicating pool of unfree or semi-free walker population was a major struggle for the former Pure Horse Tribe of Prax and split off several clans refusing to follow the Feathered Horse Queen, preferring the leadership of Derek Pol Joni instead. (Another such group disappeared through Esrolia into more western lands.)

The Beast Riders prey on beast riders from different tribes as slaves, or ransom them back. Those whose folk cannot ransom captives back often end up being sold away from Prax. Oasis folk appears to be treated differently - few (if any) will be taken along as walker slaves, as they are too valuable keeping the gardens at the Oases productive. While a Beast Rider clan remains in residence, the Oasis Folk are effectively included into the clan's slave force. I would guess that the average Oasis Folk people will have had about 60% beast riders among their male ancestors. There might be very few male Tada-shi lineages hidden among them. As the Beast Riders will have to move on when the pasture outside of the oasis has been grazed into exhaustion, children born to Oasis Folk women remain bound to the oasis, and few Beast Rider fathers will ever learn about their offspring, and even fewer will acknowledge any.

The Zola Fel river folk are less protected in this regard. If caught away from the shelter of water, they are going to face the rest of their lives in ground man slavery, as few river folk have the means to ransom back captives from the Praxians. Newtling bachelors on the other hand appear to be unpopular as slaves for the Beast Riders - while they can cross the chaparral on accumulated reserves in their tails, they need to retreat into wetlands regularly to remain healthy and active.

Sartarites in Praxian captivity usually depend on their kin to ransom them, but if the ransom is too low, they will face permanent slavery in the chaparral - assuming that they manage to stay alive under those hard conditions with a sparse diet alien to them. The Covenant puts a rather diffuse but harsh limit on how many malnourished extra eaters the herds (mainly the ones raided from other tribes) can support. Too many grounder slaves are a liability, but luckily they can be traded away. 

Fonritian slavery is an offshoot of the Malkioni caste system as introduced and practiced by the Vadeli, then adopted by the Garangordites. They are in the business of breeding slaves. The Lunars have introduced a huge population of foreign slaves into the tiered Dara Happan society which already had unfree by birth tiers of population, I think that they breed slaves, too. Agriculture has many unpleasant jobs already children can perform, similar to the cotton plantations of the lower Mississippi, and apparently the sugarcane farming in the Caribbean made this economic model of exploitation feasible and preferable over the African slave imports, too. They would have worked with enslaved natives, but most of the natives went into extinction as victims of the new epidemics brought by their conquerors.

Dara Happa appears to have had a constant import of slaves from e.g. the upper Arcos valley, which suggests that their slave population was regularly depleted by exhaustion and lack of procreation, even with the low tiers of Dara Happan population regularly selling off their supernumerary semi-free children out of toddler-hood into full slavery. The RQG annual economics rules show how bleak the chances of unfree offspring are in years of bad harvests or similar calamities, even in places like Esrolia.

Kitori and Lunars used to take child slaves from the Heortlings - the Kitori in penalty tribute, the Lunars similarly as penalty for rebellion or tax evasion. Lowland Tarsh, Lowland Saird and Sylila  probably practice hereditary slavery in their plantations, much like the Esrolians. 

It isn't quite clear whether certain neighboring cultures outside of Dara Happa or the Pentans sell supernumerary children (or young adults) into slavery "by their own choice" or as tribute rather than being subject to slave-catching raids. Selling such former kin not only earns a reprieve from oppression but might actually help feed or clothe the rest of the family.

 

Most Heortlings will keep slaves. Only the Hendriki-descended clans in Sartar and Heortland won't. I wonder whether the Vendref keep slaves - some of them have become quite affluent and would be able to purchase them, but do their Grazer overlords allow this?

Among those Heortlings who keep slaves, how many will have traditions of selling some of their kin into slavery? The Shadow Tribute and its expansion as Arkat's Command had this provision as a penalty, with the added penalty that these slaves had to be from the noble bloodlines, and the lack of certainty that these slaves wouldn't end up eaten by trolls. But are there any traditions of (elected) chiefs designating formerly free members of their clan for slavery just for economic advantage? The autocratic Esrolian grandmothers have that power. A Lunarized or Solar clan chief might have, too.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

I think that in a Orlanthi way, if you catch children it is to negotiate or punish the f*@mmdf chief / priest / elder / ring member who did something against you. So probably more like an hostage than a slave but, after all if it is a big punishment, put the kid to work in a salt mine is a funny idea, isn't it ?

it seems to me politicaly important to offer initiation to an hostage * (creating bounds, but also show that you honnor your "guest")

I m not sure it is the same for slave / thrall or just cottar hostage. The slave could follow public rituel but wouldn't obtain any powerful power from the temple. Who wants to give sever spirit to an humakti slave (if it is allowed, i don't know)

 

* what I call an hostage is not a kid captured for money, but a kid captured to stay with the raiding clan for a long time  ( threat or negotiation)

[Meleros]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Talking about slavery from the point of view of the slave-hunter or slave trader is quite uncomfortable for a big subset of this community.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Depiction of children as victims of slavery, torture or undeath has always elicited very mixed reactions.

Yes, I can imagine, and in fact I was a bit reluctant to post about this subject. The fact is that my players' clan is going to be raided soon, so I just wanted to know what degree of in-canon plot armor their younger siblings enjoy.

However, I'm sorry if anybody got upset. It is a fringe topic even for me, and I promise that my future post will be more light-hearted.

Oh, and thank you all for the answers.

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, Meleros said:

The fact is that my players' clan is going to be raided soon, so I just wanted to know what degree of in-canon plot armor their younger siblings enjoy.

Who is going to raid, and in what degree of escalation?

Tusk Riders or trolls are bad news for the captives. Ransoming those back will be hard. Dragonewts are extremely problematic, too, although they will more likely take beasts than people.

Wolf Pirates do take ransoms, but contacting them on Threestep Isles takes some time. Praxians are easier. Sartarite outlaws will do the hostage game, for short term gains, if they don't mean to stay in the vicinity. So will stray remnant Lunar survivors taking their time fighting their way back to their units or just fighting for continued survival.

The neighboring clan will avoid to slay people unless there is already a huge amount of due weregeld between the clans.

 

29 minutes ago, Meleros said:

However, I'm sorry if anybody got upset. It is a fringe topic even for me, and I promise that my future post will be more light-hearted.

Looking forward to that.

 

And no, I wasn't upset at all - I just had a similar discussion about a topic I am about to tackle.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I don't know who does this in Glorantha or in the Orlanthi culture, but some RW cultures raid and abduct children with the intent of adopting them, actually. The main example I know of, the Nilotic Nuer and Dinka peoples, are seminomadic, and so I suppose keeping the child isolated from their former family is easier than with sedentary people like the Heortlings. 

[M Helsdon]

17 hours ago, Meleros said:

When an orlanthi clan raids its neighbours, does it take kids as hostages/thralls? If so, in the former case, how is their ransom calculated? In the latter, who is responsible for their initiation rites (if they are ever initiated at all)?

The majority of Orlanthi clans are unlikely to do this as raids are usually to capture valuable cattle, and stealing children is far too likely to initiate a blood feud.

However, some Orlanthi clans do specialize in slave taking, for example the Tarshite city of Slavewall, as its name denotes, is the site of a major slave market dealing with captives from as far away as Balazar and Prax. It was founded during the reign of King Yarandros by a war clan who subjugated their neighbors, making them their thralls, and then encouraged these thrall clans to assist in their slave raids lest their own kin be sold. It is, however, probably rare, as if the neighboring clans have the sense to drop their own disputes, they will briefy unite to exact revenge on the slave-takers, and either destroy them or drive them away.

Stealing cattle is one thing, stealing children something very different.

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, Meleros said:

Hi everybody, first post here.

When an orlanthi clan raids its neighbours, does it take kids as hostages/thralls? If so, in the former case, how is their ransom calculated? In the latter, who is responsible for their initiation rites (if they are ever initiated at all)?

The thing about taking children as hostages is that it isn't exactly an honorable thing to do in Orlanthi culture.  It definitely counts as attacking an unarmed foe/cowardice/shabby behavior, and should solidly trim one's honor passion by at least a -10% penalty.  This is not to say that stealing children is never done (as there are plenty of people who have no honor passion to worry about), but the preference is to enslave adults who actually have some skills that can be exploited, especially farmer, crafters and herders.  Children are easier to capture, but worth a lot less as thralls.

As to calculating ransoms, children should be ransomed for around half what their senior parent's ransom is imo.  This just seems logical to me, and I hope other people concur.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Darius West

[Brootse]

Viking wergild was three times the victim's yearly income, and for non-combatants it was the killer's yearly income. And the slave prices in RQG are 100L for adult men and 35L for children, so the ransom could be about 1/3 of a man's ransom.

[Stephen L]

On 4/3/2020 at 2:26 AM, Meleros said:

Hi everybody, firt post here

Welcome aboard (from a newbie not much more experienced here than you!)

I’ve found people here very knowledgeable, helpful and generous.  But above all patient…  Which isn’t the stereotype for such forums.

Back to the question in hand...

On 4/3/2020 at 10:55 AM, Joerg said:

Most Heortlings will keep slaves

In my Glorantha, I have the mobility rune tied to a concept of freedom, at least in Heortling eyes, and so I have slavery offensive to them.  To deprive someone of their freedom in very serious (a form of death even), so it’s extreme - RuneQuest in Glorantha has that:

Slavery is not practiced by the Heortlings except for prisoners of war.

Also:

Vasanas Saga, Fire Season 1626

At Pimper’ Block slave market:

I found the place distasteful, and although my own cult does not prohibit the practice of slavery, it does disapprove. An honourable warrior takes her defeated foes hostage and ransoms them back to their kin or cult in exchange for their ransom, but does not treat them as chattel property.

To snatch a child into thraldom would be something extreme.  People do commit atrocities... To take them for ransom, would be another matter, but you’d still expect a violent response.

Also, it’s possible that it’s a raid gone wrong, sheep rustling, and the stupid shepherd lad(ess), being of fanatic/foolhardy (possibly not too bright if your adventurers are like mine) stock , decides to attack rather than run off to get help… Now the raiders are stuck with a prisoner, a flock of sheep, and a need to get out as quickly as they can before the alarm is raised.

The perpetrators get home, and what they’re going to do?  Returning the kid with an apology note might be losing face.  Perhaps it’s the last straw and they’re kicked out of the clan as being demented idiots, and too much of a liability, and hole themselves up (with prisoner) in the wilds in a bandit layer.  The party turn up at rival clan, all war painted up, when said clan think the kid is even now being returned.  That might be interesting to roleplay… especially after a messy fight. "Oh, you mean the abduction, nothing to do with you?... Sorry about that warband back there... Lead by the chief's son?... I think we can find most of the bits, you know how it gets with truesword... Anybody got a heal 6?"