Strike Rank Dex and Siz

[mikuel]

Do you add dex strike rank to your size?  

Harmast has Siz 12 and Dex 16 2 handed spear SR 0

Siz 12=SR 2 + Dex 16=SR 1 + 2 handed spear SR 0 Total SR=3  

Which means he can attack 4 times in a round.  

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Only get to attack once a round unless you have sufficient skill to split your attacks or some hero power or special ability outside the RAW, with one weapon anyway. You do have the right idea, to find your total melee SR add your SIZ SR, DEX SR, and your weapon SR, that is the SR you swing on each round.  If you have over 100% to hit you can split attacks and swing on your regular SR, then on SR added again, in the example above it would be 1 swing on 3 and 1 swing on 6. 

[mikuel]

Ok.  How about this one.

Do strike ranks carry over to the next round?

In your SR is 8, is the next round an attack at 8, or would it  be at SR 4 during the next round?  

[gochie]

34 minutes ago, mikuel said:

Ok.  How about this one.

Do strike ranks carry over to the next round?

In your SR is 8, is the next round an attack at 8, or would it  be at SR 4 during the next round?  

No. Strike rank is hard to explain, but generally don't look at it as a measurement of time--just a measure to determine who goes first in a round.

Again, since it's so strange, sometimes it is a measurement of time (like sorcery magic SR, and missile attacks to some extent). For missiles where it is possible to attack more than once per turn, you have to add 5SR to the normal SR to ready the missile/weapon between each attack. 

[Kloster]

9 hours ago, mikuel said:

Ok.  How about this one.

Do strike ranks carry over to the next round?

In your SR is 8, is the next round an attack at 8, or would it  be at SR 4 during the next round?  

Only in Ringworld (Old Chaosium BRP game). In all other BRP iterations, there is no carry over, and next round will also be at 8.

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, gochie said:

No. Strike rank is hard to explain, but generally don't look at it as a measurement of time--just a measure to determine who goes first in a round.

Again, since it's so strange, sometimes it is a measurement of time (like sorcery magic SR, and missile attacks to some extent). For missiles where it is possible to attack more than once per turn, you have to add 5SR to the normal SR to ready the missile/weapon between each attack. 

This is part of the reason I prefer the RQ3 way: Here, SR are ALWAYS a measure of time, and it is much simpler to explain to new players.

[Kloster]

9 hours ago, mikuel said:

Do you add dex strike rank to your size?  

You add your DEX SR to your SIZ SR for melee activities. You don't add for missile and magic.

9 hours ago, mikuel said:

Harmast has Siz 12 and Dex 16 2 handed spear SR 0

Siz 12=SR 2 + Dex 16=SR 1 + 2 handed spear SR 0 Total SR=3  

Yes, 2H spear will be at SR3 (I have not checked if the figures are correct, just the principle of your calculations).

9 hours ago, mikuel said:

Which means he can attack 4 times in a round.

No, a second actions is always started 5 SR later. Moreover, as HreshtIronBorne says, only 1 attack per round (mostly).

[David Scott]

10 minutes ago, Kloster said:

This is part of the reason I prefer the RQ3 way: Here, SR are ALWAYS a measure of time

I've just been reading the combat section of RQ3 and there's nothing that say it's a measure of time, it does say that Strike Ranks are an abstraction:

Players Book page 45

Quote

Melee Round: A 12-second period of time in which the participants battle each other In strike rank order.

Quote

Strike Rank: An abstraction based on an adventurer s SIZ. DEX, and the length of his weapon used to determine when in a melee round an adventurer may attack, use magic, run, etc. A melee round is also composed of 10 strike ranks numbered from 1-10

 

[Kloster]

33 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I've just been reading the combat section of RQ3 and there's nothing that say it's a measure of time, it does say that Strike Ranks are an abstraction:

Players Book page 45

Agreed, this is an abstraction, but the moves are per SR (3m per SR, starting the DEX SR), all the actions are per SR, spell casting has a duration in SR, ... We almost have the impulse system of Ringworld, with the exception of the End of Round with no carryover, except for the actions that have a duration of more than 1 round (Spell casting for example). This is why I explained it is easier to explain to beginners (in my experience), because if 1 round is roughly 12 seconds, 1 SR is an abstraction that covers roughly a bit more than 1 second.

[Lordabdul]

16 hours ago, Kloster said:

Agreed, this is an abstraction, but the moves are per SR (3m per SR, starting the DEX SR), all the actions are per SR, spell casting has a duration in SR

In RQG moves are also per SR, spell casting has no duration in SR (since it's measured in minutes) but the time spent to summon is also measured in SR, etc... what's the difference?

(AFAICT the difference is just that RQG waves its hands at characters not engaged in melee and says "no need to track SR too much for these people", whereas RQ3 says everyone should act in the SR order)

But yes, I'm not super big on the muddy definition and role of SR in the game mechanics (it's a mix of different concepts like time, actions, and weapon range). As someone said, if SR was a good idea, it would have been stolen by other game systems by now. Heck, even the game designers don't actually use the SR rules as written (most Actual Play videos on YouTube don't use it, and I believe Steve Perrin said he only uses them for the first round of melee engagement to define who draws first blood), so I don't quite understand why it wasn't heavily modernized.

That said, I had no problem introducing SR to new players, especially since using Infinity Engine's SR tracker stick makes it fun, visual, and easy.

Edited April 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

In RQG moves are also per SR, spell casting has no duration in SR (since it's measured in minutes) but the time spent to summon is also measured in SR, etc... what's the difference?

 

Not according to p.192.

The Melee Round is broken down into 4 phases, similar to Stormbringer and the like: One is the Statement of Intent; two is Movement of Non-Engaged Characters; three is Resolution of Melee, Missiles, and Spells; and four is Bookkeeping. 

Two specifically states: 

Quote

Any adventurer or monster actively taking part in melee combat, whether attacking or defending, is engaged in melee combat. All characters and monsters not directly engaged in melee combat may move up to their total movement rate (MOV).

Those moving no more than half of their usual movement allowance may also participate in melee or perform other feats such as throwing a spell. Every 3 meters of movement adds 1 to the mover’s strike rank.

Thus, some movement can take place during SR, but only for those who start engaged, or that are moving to become engaged.

Now there could have been something on movement in the clarifications thread that I missed, but that's what the book says.

In RQIII (p.48 of the condensed book) there are only three phases to the Melee Round, and all movement takes place during phase two, along with all combat... This is the action phase, and the rulebook states:

Quote

Action Phase: The gamester counts out the strike ranks, starting with strike rank one and concluding with strike rank ten. The adventurers and non-player-characters move according to their abilities and needs. Magic, melee, and missiles occur at their appointed strike ranks. After all actions on strike rank ten are finished, the melee round is over.

And on the same page just below that, in Movement Within the Melee Round

Quote

An adventurer moving within the melee round must start on the strike rank equal to his or her DEX strike rank.

During each subsequent strike rank and adventurer may move up to 3 meters, unless he is performing some other activity, such as fighting, spell-casting, etc. During the next melee round, he can move at 3m per strike rank, beginning again on his DEX strike rank.

 SDLeary

Edited April 13, 2020 by SDLeary

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Iirc the main conceptual difference in strike ranks between RQ2/RQG and RQ3, is that with RQ2/RQG movement is something that is figured in before engaging in combat, it’s purely there to establish the initiative order. In RQ3 it stretches the concept of movement to continue on to when the characters are engaged in combat as well. So in RQ3 it becomes more of a literal measure of time in the melee round by default as it’s not not just an abstract measure of movement before engagement (as in RQ2/RQG) to determine who goes first, but also through the whole combat engagement itself - RQ3 tries to measure/model  tactical advantages of movement whilst engaged in melee combat. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Iirc the main conceptual difference in strike ranks between RQ2/RQG and RQ3, is that with RQ2/RQG movement is something that is figured in before engaging in combat, it’s purely there to establish the initiative order. In RQ3 it stretches the concept of movement to continue on to when the characters are engaged in combat as well. So in RQ3 it becomes more of a literal measure of time in the melee round by default as it’s not not just an abstract measure of movement before engagement (as in RQ2/RQG) to determine who goes first, but also through the whole combat engagement itself - RQ3 tries to measure/model  tactical advantages of movement whilst engaged in melee combat. 

Exactly my point ... and one of the points that makes me regret having used RQ2 instead of RQ3 as a base.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Having read all this and also having observed that different people in the campaign I am currently playing in apply the strike rank calculation in different ways,  I  request a clarification and additional example in the next Rune Fixes PDF.

I went back and looked at the RQ3 rules on this and found them clearer.  Note that I am not advocating a return to RQ3, just to the  quality of the explanation in RQ3.

It seems to me that the RQG strike rank section  has at least three problems each of which need to be fixed:

A.  It never clearly and simply says that SIZ and DEX strike rank modifiers are added for melee, but that only the DEX modifier is used for shooting and magic.  And the strike rank mod table just presents the modifiers, never says whether you take the best of two or the worst of two or you add them.  Yes these things are implied but people can be a little dense when they really really want their character to be a killing machine.

B.  It does not have a example of strike rank calculation for melee, although it has an example of strike rank calculation for magic.  I submit that such an example is needed as a teaching tool, to get people to think through the rules as written and say "Hey, this is really different from [other game or my preconceptions]."

C.  It is easily misinterpreted for the player take two or three attacks per round, since I have observed that, for example, people look at strike rank modifier  for SIZ and DEX=2 + for 1Hspear =2 and say "that sums to 4, so with 12 strike ranks I can attack 3 times a round".    And they conveniently ignore the earlier explanation that strike rank is for sequencing inside one round,  and also ignore the later paragraph that says you need skill > 100% to make multiple attacks.  So it seems to me (though maybe not to you) that an appropriate fix would be an example of a round or two of combat in which this, as well as the whole strike rank concept,  is correctly illustrated and explained. 

And by the way, thanks to all above for the discussion.  i have sent the link to my GM.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
plural vs singular

[Melkor]

On 5/16/2020 at 10:27 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

I agree wholeheartedly Squaredeal.

My group has kind of assumed that Strike Rank determines sequencing within a round, but also how much stuff can be done within a round, not a second by second account of what happens in a round, but a detailed combat example would be so helpful, and it seems like something Runequest has been missing going back to 1978.

On a related note, I have a quick question - Can a character engaged in melee still use a Ranged Weapon? I may just be missing it in the book, but its something I can't see to find.

 

Quote

So it seems to me (though maybe not to you) that an appropriate fix would be an example of a round or two of combat in which this, as well as the whole strike rank concept,  is correctly illustrated and explained. 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Melkor

[Guest Vile Traveller]

On 4/13/2020 at 11:09 AM, lordabdul said:

As someone said, if SR was a good idea, it would have been stolen by other game systems by now. Heck, even the game designers don't actually use the SR rules as written (most Actual Play videos on YouTube don't use it, and I believe Steve Perrin said he only uses them for the first round of melee engagement to define who draws first blood), so I don't quite understand why it wasn't heavily modernized.

I have moved to initiative order simply based on DEX in all games I run these days. I don't even bother rolling-off for ties, characters with the same DEX just act simultaneously.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Vile

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/12/2020 at 2:02 AM, mikuel said:

Do strike ranks carry over to the next round?

Not usually, but if you're performing an action that takes 13+ Strike Ranks, it does. This is how big Sorcery spells or that really humongous Sword Trance gets cast, when they can't fit into one round.

This means that in some cases, something with a 13 SR cost will be cast quicker than something with 12 SRs. That's just the way it works.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

edited with strikeout bold by me:

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not usually, but if you're performing an action that takes 13+ Strike Ranks, it does. This is how big Sorcery spells or that really humungous Sword trance gets cast.

Specifically, AFAIK:  a  spell  that takes 13+ SR's.  Other actions don't carry over AFAIK (i.e. shorter actions begun late in the round, etc).

Even under the specific "multiple actions per round" rules (like splitting 100%+ attacks and dual-wielding for 2 attacks) AFAIK/IIRC these must still fit within the SR total per round, or you just can't do it.

I generalize to "it's a large, single action" that carries over into the next round...  As a spot-rule, I probably would allow non-spell actions to operate the same...  but they must be large single actions.  Hauling a companion by rope up a sheer cliff, for example, when there's no way to block or tie-off the rope -- if you let go, s/he falls.

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, g33k said:

Specifically, AFAIK:  a  spell  that takes 13+ SR's.  Other actions don't carry over AFAIK (i.e. shorter actions begun late in the round, etc).

Well... that's just because they are usually the only things in combat that take so long. If you manage to come up with anything else you want to do that takes 13 SRs, that will have to wrap around, or it can't ever be performed.

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you manage to come up with anything else you want to do that takes 13 SRs, that will have to wrap around, or it can't ever be performed.

Even a really small, slow character can attack with a natural weapon.

Anything else will have to wait until the next round.

So, a clumsy Duck (DEX 3 SIZ 4) attacks with a fist (SR 5+3+4=12) and then tries to pull out a sword, he is out of Strike Ranks so must wait until next round to pull out the sword.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Even a really small, slow character can attack with a natural weapon.

Anything else will have to wait until the next round.

So, a clumsy Duck (DEX 3 SIZ 4) attacks with a fist (SR 5+3+4=12) and then tries to pull out a sword, he is out of Strike Ranks so must wait until next round to pull out the sword.

Absolutely agree, but that's because pulling the sword is a separate action.

The same duck, Slowed (SR 13 for the fist), should not be incapable of attack, IMO. I would say the attack happens on SR1 next turn, but the ruling that you get to do it on SR 12 anyway isn't crazy either. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The same duck, Slowed (SR 13 for the fist), should not be incapable of attack, IMO. I would say the attack happens on SR1 next turn, but the ruling that you get to do it on SR 12 anyway isn't crazy either. 

A harsh GM would say that the duck is slowed to inaction. As I am never a harsh GM, I would say attack on SR 12 but after everyone else on SR 12.

[gochie]

On 5/18/2020 at 11:16 AM, soltakss said:

A harsh GM would say that the duck is slowed to inaction. As I am never a harsh GM, I would say attack on SR 12 but after everyone else on SR 12.

I'm pretty sure that is how it should be (as intended). SR is just the order of the actions taking place in the round (only with sorcery is it also *kind of* a measurement of time on top of sequence. So if you're super slow, well you're just going last.

[g33k]

On 5/18/2020 at 8:16 AM, soltakss said:

A harsh GM would say that the duck is slowed to inaction. As I am never a harsh GM, I would say attack on SR 12 but after everyone else on SR 12.

Obviously a Death Drake who has nicknamed his greatsword "The Final Word."

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Obviously a Death Drake who has nicknamed his greatsword "The Final Word."

”You strike the first blow, but I will strike the last.”