Chaos

[allenowen]

I'm new to RuneQuest. What exactly is Chaos? Is it similar to Chaos in Warhammer?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Vaguely, though it goes in a different direction. 

Glorantha is the "cosmos", which is a Greek term for "that which is ordered" (more or less), and so you have the physical, mythical and social universe as mortal understand it and live in it as the cosmos. Chaos is the Other. It breaks order, twisting and warping things with no design or end goal. It must not be confused with mere disorder, rather it is not just the absence of order, but rather the sheer opposing force. ("Order" here is not "lawful" in DnD terms, it's more the basic structure of the universe, the basic perceptional categories of people and so on.)

The best way to explain it is that it's a force, but so utterly unfettered and radical and unpredictable that it twists, perverts and breaks everything that people normally hold dear. It's almost like applying some kind of corrosive or acid. It's not just tearing down a tower of bricks so much as it is taking the bricks and melting them into goo making any rebuilding impossible except as a gross and dangerous parody of its former form (potentially literally, but in this case metaphorically).

It can create, change, decay or utterly annihiliate (to the point of virtually retroactively removing something from existence), but the things it creates and changes are so at odds with the normal natural order of things that they almost always appear inimical, hostile and harmful to mortal.

There's a more complex cosmic side to it, where Glorantha is this bubble of order within the Void, and chaos can arguably be seen as Void creeping into the universe. It's sort of Void where it shouldn't be, maybe. Like putting washing detergent in cereal. Washing detergent in itself is fine, but it should never be mixed with food. But then, on the other hand, there's a hidden truth that a slow trickle of Chaos is always emanating from the very bottom of the Underworld, called the Chaosium, and without it Glorantha would stagnate into static lifelessness. Like electricity from a cord driving the TV.

One thing to mention is that in Glorantha physics and morality are basically two sides of the same coin (but not in a directly 1:1 mechanistic relation), so for example people like the Orlanthi view breaches of social conduct (ie. crimes, deception, and so on) as having ripple effects and endangering the physical universe too. Of course, different groups in Glorantha have different kinds of moralities, and so there's an argument over to what degree Chaos is objective or subjective. We'll probably get no answer there. 

Lunars (and some others) believe that Chaos is not really an "other" of Cosmos/Glorantha, but is an integral part of it too (see the Chaosium above), so they believe in integrating Chaos into their theology, magic and empire, seeing it as something that can - with lots of precaution - be controlled. Groups like the (traditional) Orlanthi, Praxians, etc. reject this notion completely. We even have some examples of Chaotic beings achieving spiritual enlightenment (called Illumination in Glorantha) and becoming benevolent. (Also, it's not like you have to be Chaotic to be a right bastard in Glorantha.)

The similarities with Warhammer is basically that it is this strange force that "leaks" in from some other dimension as it were, and warps and changes things contrary to natural conditions, creating monsters and attracting ambitious or desperate folks, and generally causing havoc. There are also different gods associated with it. The main difference is that Chaos is not fueled by mortal emotions as it is in Warhammer, being more a fundamental part of the deep workings of the universe. Also Glorantha Chaos is decidedly less 80s Heavy Metal magazine covers and hairmetal than Warhammer Chaos, though there's hints of it here and there.  

(I've probably misspoken, contradicted myself, confused you, missed something, or otherwise made a mess of this. My apologies. Chaos is both easy to define - it's the Big Bad - and hard - see above. This is perhaps as it should be.)

Edited April 19, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

(I've probably misspoken, contradicted myself, confused you, missed something, or otherwise made a mess of this. My apologies. Chaos is both easy to define - it's the Big Bad - and hard - see above. This is perhaps as it should be.)

It's a very good summary! 

I don't know Warhammer Chaos, so can't speak to that.  But Chaos is effectively something which corrupts, degrades, destroys, and annihilates the world. It includes both moral "evil" and "corruption" and amoral "mutation".  Basically a cosmic cancer.

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There's a more complex cosmic side to it, where Glorantha is this bubble of order within the Void, and chaos can arguably be seen as Void creeping into the universe. It's sort of Void where it shouldn't be, maybe.

Or vice versa, Glorantha is Order/Cosmos where it should not be.

[Nick Brooke]

11 hours ago, allenowen said:

I'm new to RuneQuest. What exactly is Chaos? Is it similar to Chaos in Warhammer?

The best explanation is in the Cults of Terror Cosmology, one of the foundational texts for understanding Glorantha. Fortunately, I have a link handy. Enjoy!

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/cot-cosmology/

[allenowen]

In Warhammer, Chaos is a sort of magic radiation. Exposure to it can mutate you. Magic is manipulation raw Chaos, or channeling the winds of magic. It doesn't seem to be quite the same in Glorantha.

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, allenowen said:

Chaos is a sort of magic radiation

It is definitely different, though it is a force of its own.

2 minutes ago, allenowen said:

Exposure to it can mutate you.

That can certainly happen though in Glorantha. Hence Chaotic Features. These are not good though as they taint you with Chaos, and most people wish to destroy Chaos when and where it is found.

4 minutes ago, allenowen said:

Magic is manipulation raw Chaos, or channeling the winds of magic.

Gloranthan Chaos is probably closer to that of Moorcock's Stormbringer.  It is a Void of both nothing and potential.  When brought out of the Void (or Primal Plasma), it could potentially be shaped into Order from which the elements and powers (aka Runes) of the world develop.  But Chaos always wants to return to the form of nothingness and the Void.

[allenowen]

Ok. I also get the impression that broo are more loathsome than Chaos Beastmen in Warhammer.

[allenowen]

Also magic seems to come from the gods, which is different from most fantasy settings. I think.

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, allenowen said:

I also get the impression that broo are more loathsome than Chaos Beastmen in Warhammer.

Think of something that delights in spreading disease, killing, and mates with anything (male, female, or otherwise). And its spawn will parasitically eat or burst its way out...  So, not only more loathsome but far more horrifying.

[allenowen]

Ewww so like xenomorphs, sort of.

[Dissolv]

Warhammer is very much "we are all inevitably doomed" kind of vibe, but Glorantha has actually had the magical apocalypse of Cthulhu level proportions.  What you are gaming on is the world after that.  The gods (via the Light bringer quest and Great Compromise), and the mortals (via I fought We Won) managed a last minute goal to continue existence, although it is much different than the world before Chaos was unleashed into it.    The Great Compromise has been threatened, even possibly weakened several times before (Arkat/Gbaji, God Learners, and I suspect the Dragonewt assassination of the EWF's leadership was to block their failed dragonrise project into becoming something.....bad)

The Lunar way, and the Hero Wars that it has sparked, are a threat to the fragile order of the cosmos -- or so says Orlanth.  The goddess says there is a better way to live in harmony, but the Old Gods fear the end of the universe.

Another key point to remember is that Chaos is in the world because of the selfish actions of the gods (and to a lesser extent, mortals).  It doesn't necessarily want to be here, or even possibly, to be.   Unlike Warhammer, it doesn't have its own realm to fall back to, and is not necessarily malevolent in the "I hate everything" kind of way.  Wakboth certainly is, but Kajabor has been described as destructive simply because of what he is, not due to malice, if that makes sense. 

There are a number of official articles on Chaos, and the Guide to Glorantha Vol. II has one on p. 699.  It is worth the price tag, and then some. 

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, allenowen said:

Ewww so like xenomorphs, sort of.

Yes, very much like xenomorphs. Except that the non-consensual mating is not subtext, but very much explicit.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, allenowen said:

Ewww so like xenomorphs, sort of.

Rapey, foul, disease-ridden zenomorphs, yes.

[Akhôrahil]

19 hours ago, allenowen said:

Is it similar to Chaos in Warhammer?

In many ways, yes - it's two different ways of doing their own thing to Michael Moorcock's concept of Chaos in the Eternal Champion books. Glorantha even explicitly has that "Chaos is in fact necessary, too, or Order stagnates" (it's just that we usually don't talk about The Chaosium because it's so abstract). 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, allenowen said:

Also magic seems to come from the gods, which is different from most fantasy settings. I think.

I think you have the general idea about Chaos. And yes, the main big difference in my opinion is that Chaos has nothing to do with magic in Glorantha, unlike Chaos in Warhammer.

Glorantha has 3 kinds of magic:

• The rawest/most basic form of magic is directly manipulating the Runes that make up the universe. That's Sorcery. It's kind of Ars-Magica-esque in the sense that it's "free form" magic, and it's for nerdy wizards. You probably want to avoid it at first, it's not very powerful for beginner characters, it's not very common in the beginner homelands, and the rules are meant to be expanded in later sourcebooks.
• Instead of manipulating the Runes directly, you can let someone do that for you, namely the Gods (which are the impersonation of those Runes). In exchange for worship, they let you use their powers. That's Rune magic. That's the type of magic that is very much unique to Glorantha/RuneQuest (or at least unusual in the landscape of RPGs if you exclude RQ-like RPGs). It's the most powerful and flashy magic of all.
• Last you can just use the spirits, and the spirit world's energies, to do magic. Spirit magic is you regular "MP-powered spells" magic, but there are also shamans who can bargain with spirits and discorporeate to go in the spirit world, a bit like a netrunner goes into the cyberspace in a cyberpunk game.

So magic just really comes from Runes (directly or via Gods) and Spirits.

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The best explanation is in the Cults of Terror Cosmology, one of the foundational texts for understanding Glorantha. Fortunately, I have a link handy. Enjoy!

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/cot-cosmology/

The page has moved, apparently. It's now here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/cot-history/cot-cosmology/

[g33k]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Rapey, foul, disease-ridden xenomorphs ...

But the Broo lean-in much harder on the "almost like breeding" inherit-features-from-host issue.

The default Broo form is a very satyr-like Goat/Man, and that's what comes from breeding with one another, or with humans (and I presume with goats).

But when they breed with something else -- anything else -- much of the goatlike form is replaced by that "something else."  Mating with a Wyvern, for example, might give wings, and a spiked tail.  Mate with an Allosaurus will give a huge SIZE boost, and a toothy head.  Etc etc etc.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It is definitely different, though it is a force of its own.

It depends on the point of view

In ancient time you call a power (fire, storm, ...)  god / rune / spirit / etc.. And in my memory Warhammer middle age don't explain chaos with science word (like radiation) i may be wrong that too old for me

In modern time you call a power "energy" then radiation etc.. that's the case in Warhammer 40k (a great idea to create another world 40 000 year after the first one and to explain differently the same "result")

 

If you see glorantha runes not as a magical power but more like a kind of energy modeling people and things touched by them, you can consider "chaos rune touch" as a radiation. What are the people / things  following chaos ? people / things with more than 0 in chaos rune.

Ok it's a mix of god learner logic or lunar philosophy, I should be burnt for that 😛

[allenowen]

They don't use radiation to explain it. That's how I interpret it, since being even exposed to it can harm you. Like radiation. You don't have to touch something radioactive for it to hurt you...

[Brootse]

On 4/19/2020 at 4:36 PM, allenowen said:

Ok. I also get the impression that broo are more loathsome than Chaos Beastmen in Warhammer.

Yes, and the Chaos Beastmen were copied from RQ back in the day. Even the miniatures.