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Flintnail Dwarves


GAZZA

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1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

I've been assuming that the Flintnail cult in Pavis consists of apostate dwarves, as they appear to have abandoned the Mostali way (ironically since Flintnail himself was a Mostali, not a dwarf). Am I incorrect to have done this?

That's pretty accurate, I think.  They are extremely heretical, anyway.

 

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In my Glorantha... I haven't decided!

I am considering that Flintnail might have had an Original Idea (dangerous, but not necessarily heresy or apostasy) that "pretending to be" apostate/heretical might elicit different attitudes & behaviors (usefully different... productively different) from the Problem Species...  

Edited by g33k
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They're confirmed heretics, but not necessarily apostates. As I understand it - and correct me if I'm wrong - any dwarf who still works towards the repair of the World Machine is still following the Way of Mostal, even if he's going about it in a way the Decamony brands as heretical, and the proof of this is that they remain immortal, unlike apostates who abandon their task entirely.

The Flintnail dwarves are confirmed to be Openhandists, the heresy that believes non-dwarves can and may in fact be needed to assist in the rebuilding of the cosmos. Ginkizzie, their leader, is the son of Flintnail who has been around since the Second Age, so he's definitely still got his immortality, and is also stated to teach both dwarf and human members of the cult of Flintnail "what they must know to further the Way of Mostal." So, heretics, definitely, but not apostates. Though apparently at least some other dwarves still consider them such anyway:

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Flintnail’s penchant for humans and his proclivity for giving wondrous gifts to human supplicants has effectively barred his cult from direct dealings with most Mostali and dwarfs. The Pavis dwarfs are considered to be heretics or even apostates by nearly all other dwarfs.

Probably because their friendliness to humans and willingness to share expertise and information is probably considered excessive even by the standards of many other Openhandists. I have a sneaking suspicion that this be because in addition to being Openhandists, the Flintnail dwarves are all or at least largely also Individualists.

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Interesting. I was under the impression that once you sac POW to a god, you're no longer following the Mostal way (as RQ3's Elder Secrets says that non-apostate dwarves can't learn spirit magic or rune magic; Flintnail offers both, though that is from Pavis and Big Rubble which predates RQ3's decision that dwarves use sorcery).

So if I'm understanding correctly, Flintnail isn't actually a cult in RQ3+, it's more like just a bunch of dwarfs following a dude with the Openhandist heresy. I was not aware there were listed Flintnail dwarfs that have been around long enough to prove they're not aging (so I'm glad I asked).

Fair enough, I'll have to make a few changes but that will work out fine.

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10 hours ago, GAZZA said:

I've been assuming that the Flintnail cult in Pavis consists of apostate dwarves, as they appear to have abandoned the Mostali way (ironically since Flintnail himself was a Mostali, not a dwarf). Am I incorrect to have done this?

Personally I don't believe they have.

And the reason behind this is maths! (And Pavis: Gateway to Adventure)

In Elder Secrets we have a percentile chart of Dwarven occupations. Of any group, the dwarves are the most likely to hold as firm as they can to these percentiles, because they could.

So we end up with:

Quote

 

26 Rock Dwarves

20 Copper Dwarves

10 Brass Dwarves

10 Lead Dwarves

10 Quicksilver Dwarves

10 Tin Dwarves

9 Iron Dwarves

4 Silver Dwarves

1 Gold Dwarf

 

Pavis: Gateway to Adventure lists there as being 100 dwarves in New Pavis. (It also lists them as still having rock dwarves, gold dwarves, and iron dwarves, but that's not important to the maths)

Gold dwarves dress in ways that impress humans, and are commonly mistaken for leaders, rather than their teacher roles. Even if he wasn't stated to be one, Gizinkizzi the dwarf "king" would be an obvious gold dwarf.

In the encounters section of P:GtA, we can encounter a dwarven construction crew of 13 dwarves. This is an odd number, in more ways than the literal, and would be strange. Except it's half 26, the perfect number of rock dwarves in 100 dwarves -- there's likely two shifts/groups of rock dwarves doing construction work.

Why would apostates cling so strongly to the perfect numbers for their caste? The dwarves of Pavis may be openhandist, and possibly even individualist heretics. But they still further the work of Mostal, and are almost certainly not apostates.

It's just that humans only encounter three castes above ground, and so only know their golds, their rocks, and their irons.

Edited by Tindalos
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Ian Thompson's old Pavis & Big Rubble expansion zines (sold by Tradetalk.de) include lots of fun hints about the secrets of Pavis dwarfs. 

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"For some years after the founding of New Pavis, the few dwarf experts amongst the knowledge cultists thought that the Flintnail dwarves were immortal heretics, who had remained followers of Mostal as well as worshipping their former leader. However, when they began to request audiences with the dwarves in order to write a coherent history of the old city based on first hand experience, Dorasar himself asked them to restrict their investigations. This act, plus the oddness of their manner, now leads sages to presume (more or less correctly) that the dwarves are fully apostate, and thus mortal."

More here.

Edited by Runeblogger

Read my Runeblog about RuneQuest and Glorantha at: http://elruneblog.blogspot.com.es/

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9 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Interesting. I was under the impression that once you sac POW to a god, you're no longer following the Mostal way (as RQ3's Elder Secrets says that non-apostate dwarves can't learn spirit magic or rune magic; Flintnail offers both, though that is from Pavis and Big Rubble which predates RQ3's decision that dwarves use sorcery).

So if I'm understanding correctly, Flintnail isn't actually a cult in RQ3+, it's more like just a bunch of dwarfs following a dude with the Openhandist heresy. I was not aware there were listed Flintnail dwarfs that have been around long enough to prove they're not aging (so I'm glad I asked).

Fair enough, I'll have to make a few changes but that will work out fine.

In HeroQuest at least, the cult of Flintnail provides no rune or spirit magic; initiates of the cult learn the Secrets of Stone, which they can use as a sorcerer's grimoire but otherwise teaches a lot of dwarven lore about classifying, working and shaping stone. The initiates (and one of the requirements to become one is to serve as a journeyman stonemason for at least five years) make up the construction bosses and master stonemasons of Pavis, and in a lot of ways the cult of Flintnail is as much or more of a stonemason's guild with some heavily-guarded trade secrets than a typical rune or spirit cult.

So this is another thing where not just your own Glorantha might vary, but apparently what the published books have to say on the matter vary between different game lines or editions.

2 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Ian Thompson's old Pavis & Big Rubble expansion zines (sold by Tradetalk.de) include lots of fun hints about the secrets of Pavis dwarfs. 

More here.

What would that make Ginkizzie, then? Since he definitely hasn't lost his immortality (or if he did, it was recently enough that he hasn't been remarked as aging). A procession of identical-looking dwarves keeping up the conspiracy?

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9 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Interesting. I was under the impression that once you sac POW to a god, you're no longer following the Mostal way (as RQ3's Elder Secrets says that non-apostate dwarves can't learn spirit magic or rune magic; Flintnail offers both, though that is from Pavis and Big Rubble which predates RQ3's decision that dwarves use sorcery).

 

8 minutes ago, Leingod said:

In HeroQuest at least, the cult of Flintnail provides no rune or spirit magic; initiates of the cult learn the Secrets of Stone, which they can use as a sorcerer's grimoire but otherwise teaches a lot of dwarven lore about classifying, working and shaping stone.

 

Of course it's also worth noting that the runespells Flintnail provides: Mold Rock and Support are remarkably similar in theme to the Mostali sorcerous spells of Shape Stone and Stabilize Stone.

Shape Metal's an odd one, as the Dwarven magic tends to be more specific, with Shape Brass, Shape Copper, Shape Iron, etc being separate spells. It's possible that the Flintnail cult just teaches the ones most appropriate to the task.

It's also possible the cult's statues that they use for Warrior of Stone may be small Jolanti, with the spell itself activating them.

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General question, because I may be GMing a Pavis Mostali player character in the near future:  I know the Flintnail cult is supposed to be contained in the forthcoming Gods & Goddesses book, but does anyone know of fan ports of its RQ2 or RQ3 versions?

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On 5/19/2020 at 8:36 AM, dumuzid said:

I know the Flintnail cult is supposed to be contained in the forthcoming Gods & Goddesses book, but does anyone know of fan ports of its RQ2 or RQ3 versions?

If you use the Mostali material in the Glorantha Bestiary treat their magic as being knowledge of all the Mostali magic with Stone in the name, and a few extra more conventional sorcery spells mostly about manipulating stone (because it is mean to only give PCs spells useful in large construction projects, and requiring POW every time you cast it), then you should be able wing the rest from either the HQ2 or RQ2 writeup. 

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