Chalana Arroy sorcery?

[Eagle Talon]

I read in the Runequest Roleplaying in Glorantha that members of the cult are not allowed to use Tap sorcery. It does not imply that members can use sorcery but I was wondering why it is mentioned. I think it is the only cult with sorcery restriction without further explanations.  

Can a member of the Chalana Arroy cult use sorcery healing spells? Perhaps as being in an mixed Malkioni and Lightbringers culture similar to the Henotheists of Ralios. 

[metcalph]

Chalana Arroy could use Sorcery but there's little reason form them to do so as it's less effective than their goddesses healing magics. 

[Austin]

8 hours ago, Eagle Talon said:

Can a member of the Chalana Arroy cult use sorcery healing spells?

Yep! Though as Metcalph notes, spirit magic and Rune magic are generally better in this regard. As I understand it, CA basically lets you use any sort of magical tradition/abilities, so long as you retain the vows of non-violence. The cult itself teaches neither sorcery nor shamanism, but its followers can engage in those practices.

In a tactical sense, this does let a CA adventurer become a very powerful "utility caster," with access to a wide variety of healing and support magics.

In a roleplay sense, I think a potential story to explain this is a person converting to Chalana Arroy after traumatic events. I believe coming back from the dead often leads to this, something called the "re-life sickness", which leads resurrected persons to convert to Humakt or Chalana Arroy. So the adventurer might have started learning sorcery before play, and then converted to CA while retaining their knowledge.

Should also note I don't know to what extent sorcery exists as a magic outside of cultic/religious structures. I think the implication of the Philosopher profession is that sorcery does exist outside of cults. Though RQG does note that many cults don't allow their followers to practice sorcery or become shamans, it doesn't include a list of which cults do and don't, so the point's a bit bunk.

[Darius West]

On 6/24/2020 at 9:17 AM, metcalph said:

Chalana Arroy could use Sorcery but there's little reason form them to do so as it's less effective than their goddesses healing magics. 

Ahh, but Sorcery is open to Healers of Arroin in a way that the magic of the goddess is not, or at least this is the way I have been GMing it. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Darius West

[g33k]

On 6/23/2020 at 4:17 PM, metcalph said:

Chalana Arroy could use Sorcery but there's little reason form them to do so as it's less effective than their goddesses healing magics. 

I think Sorcery's versatility might be an asset.  In principle, one should be able to mass-heal a hospital full of wounded with Sorcery...

 

 

[metcalph]

20 hours ago, Darius West said:

Ahh, but Sorcery is open to Healers of Arroin in a way that the magic of the goddess is not, or at least this is the way I have been GMing it. 

If the Healers of Arroin still exist, I think they would refuse all magic as an austerity of some sort.

 

14 hours ago, g33k said:

I think Sorcery's versatility might be an asset.  In principle, one should be able to mass-heal a hospital full of wounded with Sorcery...

Multispellas a sorcery skill does not exist in the RGG rules and I'm not really seeing this versatility advantage considering that Chalanan Healers can already multispell healing spells

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

If the Healers of Arroin still exist, I think they would refuse all magic as an austerity of some sort.

Exactly, the Arroin subcult does practice this kind of austerity, but only with Rune magic. From the upcoming Cults of Glorantha:

Quote

...the subcult of the Arroin Healers, the healers who cure without Rune magic. Initiates of Chalana Arroy with a 90% ability in all four Healing Arts, plus knowledge of the Healing 6 spirit magic spell, can join the subcult.

They are Rune Lords is all areas, but don't use rune magic. The reason is part of his mythology.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Why on Glorantha would they do that?

The key word in @metcalph's reply was austerity, they are emulating Arroin's sacrifices and ascetic lifestyle. 

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They'd have to be complete fools.

In your opinion. But the world is full of people who have chosen a spiritual life path that doesn't always make sense to those on the outside of it.

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What a waste of a life and a cult.

The nature of ascetic cults and individuals following this form of life path, means that this is the sort of things that they would do.

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 But yeah, as apparently "boys can't heal", they must not be able to do sorcery either.  Ridiculous.  Face facts.

Asceticism isn't about what you can't do, it's the choice of not doing what you can.

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All you need is Free Int, or are Healers of Arroin lacking all Int too? 

There's no restriction on sorcery at all for Chalana Arroy cultists, so the same for Arroin sub-cultists. However, considering the nature of this subcult, most likely don't use it either. 

I can easily imagine an Arroin Rune Lord with 10 rune points from their previous life and the knowledge of healing sorcery deliberately not using it. I can imagine old retired cultist not even using their spirit magic and just relying on their skills.

In my mind, this is the kind of cult that borders on mysticism. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Scotty

[MOB]

16 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There's no restriction on sorcery at all for Chalana Arroy cultists, so the same for Arroin sub-cultists. However, considering the nature of this subcult, most likely don't use it either. 

I can see some Healers of Arroin deploying sorcery as a mechanistic-deterministic, strictly non-divine, non-numinous process, as an extension of their skill-based practise.

[g33k]

Emphasis added:

3 hours ago, MOB said:

I can see some Healers of Arroin deploying sorcery as a mechanistic-deterministic, strictly non-divine, non-numinous process, as an extension of their skill-based practise.

1:
Me too. Emphasis on "some," on it being a choice by one and not another.  David's "ascetic tradition" take is another choice that another Arroin healer might make.

2:
I note there is a... hmmm... a :God-Learner-adjacent  sort of mindset to this.  Understanding the Divine & numinous universe well enough to replicate all those effects by your own skill and force of will...

 

[Shiningbrow]

Ummm, a fairly obvious point to.make as to why use sorcery is Logician... It affects Alchemy, all those Lores (Plant, Animal, mineral), Treat Disease/Poison.

Ain't no Rune or Spirit spells doing that.

(Also, having a high Battle skill - also Knowledge and subject to Logician - means knowing where not to put up the healer's tents... Or help avoid casualties)

[davecake]

There is also the sorcery tradition of Xemela, mother of Hrestol, who is famous as a healer (she defeated a plague). And one of the major sorcerous traditions of Loskalm is the Furlandan school, that is largely focussed on hygiene and fighting disease (though also drifts into dealing with other malign spirits). These healing traditions could easily have some overlap with Chalana Arroy, and especially Arroin. 

[Darius West]

On 6/27/2020 at 12:24 AM, David Scott said:

There's no restriction on sorcery at all for Chalana Arroy cultists, so the same for Arroin sub-cultists. However, considering the nature of this subcult, most likely don't use it either. 

There is simply no good reason for this to be the case.  We know damn well why Arroin doesn't get Rune Points from CA, he bled out his Rune Magic healing powers much like Yelmalio bled out his fire.  It's in the myths.  Healing sorcery would be an extremely practical answer to that deficit without breaking any cult restrictions, and would provide the CA cult with a second string of healing proficiency that refreshes itself far faster than rune points.  It would also serve to make an Arroin healer more interesting than their current utterly unenticing brief. This is ENTIRELY within keeping with the Arroin cult and its purview AND mgf.  They are the branch of the cult that deals with the long term acquisition of skills after all.

The spells: 

Mend Flesh - can solve the issue of missing limbs without recourse to a regrow limb spell.  A boon to the CA cult.

Protective Circle - Drag the injured in and wait.  It can also be used to create multiple barriers against incoming spells.

Preserve Item - Great for one's pharmacy or surgery.  Keep your medicines fresh and workspace  neatly arranged.

Speak to Mind - Bring people out of comas or organize your friends and co-ordinate their actions.

Solace of the Logical Mind - Protection against Mind magic, and perfect for bringing berserkers back to reason.

Identify Otherworldly Entity - Handy when treating possessions, and determining disease spirit types.

Identify Spell - Helps you confirm whether Malia operatives caused this disease outbreak.

Accelerate healing - Aids hitpoint recovery from damage sources that affect general hit points, not location, like poison damage.  Not as useful as Mend Flesh but has its place.

These spells have the advantage that the CA cult provides the runes that apply to many of them, and the rest require either Command or Combine.

 

[David Scott]

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is simply no good reason for this to be the case. We know damn well

In your opinion. (you keep forgetting to add that). 

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

why Arroin doesn't get Rune Points from CA

it's a subcult of Chalana Arroy, so they've paid the POW to join the cult of Chalana Arroy, they have one Rune point at least and will have selected one special cult spell. 

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

he bled out his Rune Magic healing powers much like Yelmalio bled out his fire.  It's in the myths.

I thought that when he used his magic to heal chaos, his magic broke and he was wounded (upcoming GoG):

Quote

Arroin stayed behind, protected by every living thing which could help him. In return, he helped everyone whenever he could. Even so, his fate was wretched, for he attracted the emptiness of Chaos to him, and each time he tried to heal Chaos his magic powers broke. He was wounded continually, and at the end lay close to death. Finally, he hid in the material world, and so survived long enough to see the Dawning, and to greet his mother back to the world. But his powers were never the same.

Looks to me that they choose not to use it, as if they do, bad things will happen.

36 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Healing sorcery would be an extremely practical answer to that deficit without breaking any cult restrictions

As @MOB said, I entirely agree that in some areas that some Arroin healers would see sorcery as totally acceptable. Just not all areas.

 

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

As @MOB said, I entirely agree that in some areas that some Arroin healers would see sorcery as totally acceptable. Just not all areas.

This seems quite logical. As always, every Gloranthan rule does not apply everywhere, and this is a good point, because that means a world that is less manichean.

In tha case that means we (or at least the GM) must know where the rule does aplly and where it does not.

[davecake]

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

I entirely agree that in some areas that some Arroin healers would see sorcery as totally acceptable. Just not all areas.

I think in most of central Genertela, Arroin is regarded as a skills based sub-cult largely for people with limited magical aptitude. There are probably a few cult members who have, for example, lost a lot of POW due to divine intervention or Soul Waste. 

I think in Fronela, where the Arroin cult originates and it might be the mainstream version of the cult, learning some sorcery as part of the Arroin healing arts is regarded as quite normal. There will still be many Arroin cultists who don't know any (for a start, some won't be smart enough), and rely on skills alone. But many will have have huge knowledge of healing plants, and of Alchemy - and that sort of knowledge is pretty much the same sort of things many philosophers/sorcerers would study anyway. And they get some good healing magic  without using Rune Magic and worshipping gods,  that would be against orthodox (or New Hrestolism either). The cult enjoys good relations with elves, too, which can be quite handy when there are lots of elves nearby. 

Slightly awkward for such sorcerers that all the good Arroin magic (including Healing 6) is spirit magic, though. There are ways to deal with that issue, though. 

[Darius West]

On 6/29/2020 at 1:36 AM, David Scott said:

In your opinion. (you keep forgetting to add that). 

I can support my opinions pretty hard with references if needed.  In this instance, Arroin is more interesting to play if they adopt sorcery, and the rules themselves seem to support this.

On 6/29/2020 at 1:36 AM, David Scott said:

it's a subcult of Chalana Arroy, so they've paid the POW to join the cult of Chalana Arroy, they have one Rune point at least and will have selected one special cult spell. 

I am sitting here with the RQ:Gods of Glorantha preview edition.  It says that the Chalana Arroy cult doesn't teach sorcery but won't forbid initiates from learning it, except harmful spells.  For Arroin Subcult, it clearly states that they heal without Rune Magic.  That one point of POW is wasted POW.  They get no magic for it.  It then goes on to contradict itself by saying that they replenish their (already established non-existent) rune magic faster, as they are rune lords.  They are required to know healing 6 and the 4 healing skills at 90%. 

Clearly this is a badly neglected area of the Chalana Arroy cult.

On 6/29/2020 at 1:36 AM, David Scott said:

I thought that when he used his magic to heal chaos, his magic broke and he was wounded (upcoming GoG):

Potatoe potātoe.

On 6/29/2020 at 1:36 AM, David Scott said:

Looks to me that they choose not to use it, as if they do, bad things will happen.

In RQ2, Arroin had no access to Rune magic.  It wasn't featured in RQ3.  Presently the write-up is confused and ambiguous in RQ:GOG.

On 6/29/2020 at 1:36 AM, David Scott said:

As @MOB said, I entirely agree that in some areas that some Arroin healers would see sorcery as totally acceptable. Just not all areas.

I agree with this.  My point being, given that Sorcery is a far more skill-based form of magic, and far more personal, drawing as it does on magic points, not Divine Points, it is a beautiful fit.  Arroin is all about medical skills, and has no divine magic to draw upon.  Arroin is the cult of surgeons, and doctors.  Sorcery is simply the best and most logical answer to this deficit as it adds to this more academic approach.  There is also mention of the fact that the Aeolians of Heortland include Chalana Arroy among the cults that have sorcery.  Will it be widespread?  Well, in Glorantha, really is anything valid over the next hill for certain?

What is certain is that Arroin sorcery would make Arroin a better and far more interesting and playable subcult of Chalana Arroy.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Darius West

[Austin]

50 minutes ago, Darius West said:

For Arroin Subcult, it clearly states that they heal without Rune Magic.

Maybe they can use Rune magic for other purposes? For example, Soul Sight to see if someone's possessed, Divination to determine the right antidote to brew, or spells from associated cults to otherwise bolster the community? Bless Pregnancy from Ernalda, Analyze Magic from Lhankor Mhy, and Shield from Orlanth all seem valid and timely uses of Rune magic while still keeping the geas against using it to heal.

I don't have the preview, but it sounds like they're just prohibited to heal with it, not from using Rune magic in general.

(That said, I do like your idea of Aeolian Arroin worshipers. They sound a lot of fun to play!)

[Darius West]

46 minutes ago, Crel said:

Maybe they can use Rune magic for other purposes? For example, Soul Sight to see if someone's possessed, Divination to determine the right antidote to brew, or spells from associated cults to otherwise bolster the community? Bless Pregnancy from Ernalda, Analyze Magic from Lhankor Mhy, and Shield from Orlanth all seem valid and timely uses of Rune magic while still keeping the geas against using it to heal.

I don't have the preview, but it sounds like they're just prohibited to heal with it, not from using Rune magic in general.

(That said, I do like your idea of Aeolian Arroin worshipers. They sound a lot of fun to play!)

That is an interesting idea Crel.  A reading of the rules implies that Arroin has no divine magic, but putting the spin on it that it only applies to healing magic is novel, and I like the lateral thinking involved.  I once played a  Chalana Arroy, but I have always shied away from playing an Arroin healer as it was too much like beating one's head against a wall, and I always felt the CA cult was poorer for that.  This spin goes part way towards a remedy, but then, so does Aeolian sorcery.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Darius West

[MJ Sadique]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

A reading of the rules implies that Arroin has no divine magic, but putting the spin on it that it only applies to healing magic is novel,

Fact is  : Arroin, A son of Chalana Arroy, which magical power was eaten by Grenfalur the Eater doesn't provide any magic to his healers. (no healing or any others)

Arroin stricly have no magic, he lose them and never get it back but he can still help and heal people and moreover ""Arroin"" don't have magic but his followers can have some if the pray others gods, spirits or saints. ^^

Why Sorcery ?

First, Does Arroin/Chalana followers need magic : NO. Simply think how he can do this : First, you don't need magic to heal, you need to be a medic with skills, it's not as fast as magic but if you have hundreds of victims you will burn all your spell in 5 minutes, you save ten people and nothing more. A medic with skills could save a lot more people.

Second, What sorcery have than Runic spell have not : First is the limitation, like the precedent case if you burn all you rune magic in one day you cannot use it for a long time; Spirit magic and Sorcery are not limited in number of use so Chalana's followers can use others magic to preserve their Rune Spells and still heal people.

a Bad wound : a needle, a thread and some skill is enough
a Bad bleeding : A spirit or sorcery spell will to it
a Hole in the chest : Only a Rune Spell with the help of Chalana Arroy could save one life

So Why choosing sorcery over spirit magic ? Mainly because Chalana follower would blend in the local culture to be able to use their magic without social problems : "Do in Rome as Romans Do". You live near malkioni, use sorcery... you live near some dumb-lanthi, use spirit magic ...XD

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

"Do in Rome as Romans Do". You live near malkioni, use sorcery... you live near some dumb-lanthi, use spirit magic ...XD

The Malkioni, for the most part, do not use Sorcery. 

[MJ Sadique]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Malkioni, for the most part, do not use Sorcery. 

😵 : euuuuh...

I really need some clarification

Are we speaking about the same Malkioni... the descendant of Danmalastan which magic have been made by Zzabur; A man called the Great Living Rune, the creator of the first Grimoire and beholder of the titles like Wise man of Kiona, First supreme Sorcerer and God of Sorcery. Unless we speak about Aeolians who may not all be Malkioni or Sorcery users.

Or we may not speak about the same "Sorcery". To me Sorcery mean all magics of the Essence Plane as it is explain in HQ : Focus like scriptures or Miracle are a form of Sorcery; But if you separate the magic of Churchs, saintly orders and wizardry schools, I admit that not all Malkioni are part of a wizardry/Sorcery school. (In RQ, As the difference between these practices was never put into the light, I did not take them in account).

If I'm still wrong, you may enlighten me (Not with a Nysalor Riddle, I'm Allergic to moonies and chaos 😛 )

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Malkioni, for the most part, do not use Sorcery. 

16 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

😵 : euuuuh...

I really need some clarification

I think this is referring to the caste system - Zzabur caste use sorcery, but most Malkioni are not Zzaburi. Everyone else uses Spirit Magic, which they may call by a different name such as Common Magic or Folk Magic. Or no magic at all.

Edited July 1, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[GAZZA]

Just now, PhilHibbs said:

I think this is referring to the caste system - Zzabur caste use sorcery, but most Malkioni are not Zzaburi. Everyone else uses Spirit Magic, which they may call by a different name such as Common Magic or Folk Magic.

Interesting. This certainly wasn't the case in RQ3 - the lower castes simply had restrictions on manipulation, they still used sorcery.

[metcalph]

Just now, MJ Sadique said:

😵 : euuuuh...

I really need some clarification

Are we speaking about the same Malkioni... the descendant of Danmalastan which magic have been made by Zzabur; A man called the Great Living Rune, the creator of the first Grimoire and beholder of the titles like Wise man of Kiona, First supreme Sorcerer and God of Sorcery. Unless we speak about Aeolians who may not all be Malkioni or Sorcery users.

Yes, we are.  My statement is true even for the Loskalmi and the Seshnelans.

Just now, MJ Sadique said:

Or we may not speak about the same "Sorcery". To me Sorcery mean all magics of the Essence Plane as it is explain in HQ : Focus like scriptures or Miracle are a form of Sorcery; But if you separate the magic of Churchs, saintly orders and wizardry schools, I admit that not all Malkioni are part of a wizardry/Sorcery school. (In RQ, As the difference between these practices was never put into the light, I did not take them in account).

If I'm still wrong, you may enlighten me (Not with a Nysalor Riddle, I'm Allergic to moonies and chaos 😛 )

Things have changed somewhat since HQ1.0.  The Churches and broad Malkioni worship of the Invisible God with access to sorcerous magic no longer exists - sorcery is in the hands of the 1%, the sorcerers (to be fair to Greg, he was writing stuff that implied it as far back as Hero Wars: RIG but I and othersdidn't actually quite understand).  Everybody else uses spirit magic and rune magic (they don't worship the Big Gods but they can obtain rune magic from entities such as ancestors which don't make their wizards twitch).

Speaking on the subject of the Healer of Arroin learning sorceror, I doubt there are schools of such healers, simply for the primary reason that healers are rare (>1%) and healers of Arroin even rarer (1% of 1%). so we are talking about one healer of Arroin in the whole of Sartar etc.  An Aeolian Healer could learn sorcery as could a Heortling one - all they have to do is ask their Lhankor Mhy associates for instruction.  I don't think much of the argument that they could see sorcery as another form of skill as they wouldn't be very good sorcerors if they did.  But it is something that a healer of Arroin could believe and so I have no problem with a Healer of Arroin deciding that sorcery is not god magic and so permissable - he just wouldn't be that great a healer.

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

...and so I have no problem with a Healer of Arroin deciding that sorcery is not god magic and so permissable - he just wouldn't be that great a healer.

I don't think Arroin healers think "I'm not allowed to do god magic because Arroin forbids it", isn't it more that "I actually can't because Arroin lost his magic and I follow his path"?