Destroyed Lunar colony in southern Zola Fel valley circa 1625?

[Pentallion]

Yes, if you read further up, it's right there.  Malia.  But my contention was she was a perfect candidate for a Thed avatar and so that's what she was in my Glorantha.  That's all.  Not arguing about canon or anything.

Think about it.  She's a female.human who leads broos.  That's unusual.   And she'd been treated unjustly by the villagers, just as Thed was by Orlanth.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Pentallion

[Minlister]

Thank you for your understanding. 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Later, in 1623, the Lunar fleet is refused landing at Nochet and the Lunars lay siege.  Again, I'm uncertain of the original citation, and reference to a "fleet" has been excised from the brief summary in RQG Family Histories, but it was there once.  Where did that ephemeral fleet come from?

The Lunars conquer Karse in 1619 (convenient port, with ships), and then Heortland in 1620.  One of the main Holy Country ship-building centers (Sklar) is on the coast of Heortland.  They'll take Lunar money to build boats and by 1623 the "fleet" is ready to transport soldiers across.  Note that the fleet is not large enough to take Nochet's docks or challenge the Nochet fleet.

7 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Lord help me if I can recall where I read it, but ostensibly the point of the southward Lunar offensive in Prax was in reaction to their failed invasion of the Holy Country by land in 1605 -- they were looking for a southern ocean port now that the seas were Opened. 

Yes!  That was the idea.  And all they got was one Wolf Pirate ship showing up (in Cults of Prax with the Biturian Varosh writeup, and then expanded on in the Pavis book). The point of Corflu was to serve as a trade port, though.  It does not have the resources to become a shipbuilding center (note that even in the Holy Country, the shipbuilding centers of Seapolis and Sklar are distinct from the ports being close to resources; the only exception is Diros Island at Nochet).

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

And I am sure, Soltakss likes it! Thed is so acid! 

😲 Whaddya mean? 😏

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Lunars conquer Karse in 1619 (convenient port, with ships), and then Heortland in 1620.  One of the main Holy Country ship-building centers (Sklar) is on the coast of Heortland.  They'll take Lunar money to build boats and by 1623 the "fleet" is ready to transport soldiers across.  Note that the fleet is not large enough to take Nochet's docks or challenge the Nochet fleet.

IMG the Lunar assault on Karse was supported by triremes from Corflu, but that's because I'm fond of the Red Admiral, one of my recurring freeform characters, and it's part of his back-story. Also, I like the idea of adventurers snooping around top-secret Lunar naval facilities, submarine bases and the like. That's my kinda Glorantha. 

[Nick Brooke]

"Your opportunity to shine came with the invasion of Heortland in 1619. A vital part of General Fazzur's plan was the naval attack on the strategic port of Karse, yet at that time the Lunar Empire had no surface fleet. Against a difficult timetable, you obtained the necessary funds and resources to construct and train a squadron of triremes; then, as the Red Commodore, you led them into battle and victory, seizing the Pharaoh's dockyards in a bold stroke which decided the course of Fazzur's campaign. You were the Hero of Karse, shining in the reflected light of Fazzur's glory. Your promotion to Red Admiral brought with it the command of a combined force, the Red Navy (a part of the Red Army). This consisted of the surface fleet at Corflu, the Red Army's Moonboats used to ferry troops to the borders of the Empire, and the magical Icebreakers which battle demons every winter..."

-- Murad Iznik, "The Red Admiral," from Life of Moonson

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I like the idea of adventurers snooping around top-secret Lunar naval facilities, submarine bases and the like. That's my kinda Glorantha. 

Well, yes, we can't exclude that! 🙂 Of course, his scribes wrote the "True History of the Corflu Fleet"

10 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Against a difficult timetable, you obtained the necessary funds and resources to construct and train a squadron of triremes

"The Red Admiral made astute use of the funds that came via the Etyries merchants to commandeer several merchant vessels that had run aground on Defender's Shore while trying to escape the Wolf Pirates.  We were surprised though when he bought the old Handran and Teshnan galleys, which had seen much better days, and transformed them into ships which might be seaworthy once again."

17 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

seizing the Pharaoh's dockyards in a bold stroke

"The poor folk of Sklar had seen better days.  Since the God-king's disappearance and the civil war in Heortland, there were none left to contract for additional ships, and so many ships simply sat is various states of construction.  The Red Admiral's arrival sparked interest, and the negotiations with the boatbuilders quick.  In a matter of an hour, the Red Admiral had transformed his pitiful flotilla of 5 old ships into a squadron with the addition of the already finished craft at Sklar, plus added the promise of additional ships."

22 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

You were the Hero of Karse

"The Karsites did not expect attack by sea, so all the ships remained at the docks and inner beach.  The arrival of the Red Admiral's flotilla caused considerable alarm - many horns sounded from the watchtowers to man the ships.  But it was too late.  The harbor blockaded easily, and with threat of fire at hand, the anxious merchants quickly surrendered."

[Qizilbashwoman]

Muriah is a Malian priestess, Thed refuses all female worshippers, even broo ones.

YGWV but this is pretty solid stuff. Thed really hates female ... anything. It's kind of her shtick.

But Muriah is bad-ass nonetheless. She manages to corral the broo not into attacking her as prey but as another broo, and beats them down in physical combat to be their leader. Not bad for a teenage girl.

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

The basic story of the Grantlands is that once the Lunar army is no longer able to protect it from nomads, it isn't protected any more from nomads. What that means differs depending on your campaign.

Here's @Jeff's original tracing map for the guide. You can see all the areas clearly.

The main reason that the Grantlands were protected was the "Armistace of Prax" - it covered a lot of things, but basically was "we'll keep out of your Praxian Holy Places and you'll keep out of the Grantland". Once the Paps declared the Armistice broken, it was all over.

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

But in one way or another the colony is destroyed. I don't think that means that the nomads slaughtered every settler - rather I suspect most settlers were forced to flee somewhere else. New Pavis, Sun County, Corfu, Horngate, Moonbroth, wherever.

The main reason for the Praxians returning to the Grantlands is that it's good grazing. Loot, slaves and murder are a bonus for some, but don't support the herds.

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Here's @Jeff's original tracing map for the guide. You can see all the areas clearly.

The main reason that the Grantlands were protected was the "Armistace of Prax" - it covered a lot of things, but basically was "we'll keep out of your Praxian Holy Places and you'll keep out of the Grantland". Once the Paps declared the Armistice broken, it was all over.

The main reason for the Praxians returning to the Grantlands is that it's good grazing. Loot, slaves and murder are a bonus for some, but don't support the herds.

Yes. The Praxians reclaim the Grantlands not because they are Lunars, but because they are farmers where there should not be farmers. Most are simply driven off their land. 

[Minlister]

@seasparrow

An excellent scenario for the grantlands was published in the Zin Letters. Obviously, I don't think you can find it now but you could build on the central idea which was really good:

The Lunar lord of the Grantlands, duke Raus, needs more water to irrigate his new lands. He sends the PC in a quest to revive a river, an affluent of the Zola Fel, who went missing centuries before. He wants them to find the river and induce her to return to the world and marry the Lunar duke in the same kind of mystical union which exists between the Count of the Sun Dome and the nymph Kinope.

It is a nice mix of mythical investigation, heroquest and "tomb raider" activities. 

[Beoferret]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes. The Praxians reclaim the Grantlands not because they are Lunars, but because they are farmers where there should not be farmers. Most are simply driven off their land. 

Seems like this could open up a lot of adventuring possibilities: a Gloranthan "seven samurai" scenario, protecting stubborn farmers (some of the last in the area) from a large Praxian warband (with the possibility of negotiating some sort of mutually agreeable settlement between the two); recovering someone's family heirloom from a destroyed village/manor house (it was successfully hidden and now adventurers are needed to get it, since prowling Praxians still make the area dangerous); or being Praxian warriors and/or allies acting to prevent Lunars from recovering some hidden treasures. 

[Ian Absentia]

18 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Seems like this could open up a lot of adventuring possibilities: a Gloranthan "seven samurai" scenario, protecting stubborn farmers (some of the last in the area) from a large Praxian warband...

This, plus Casablanca-in-Corflu is rapidly making life in the southern Zola Fel Valley my new best incentive to move the timeline forward from 1621 to 1625.

!i!

[Bohemond]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

With what wood???  Redwoods floated all the way down the Zola Fel?  

My money says Lunar silvers (and wheels) bought a fleet for transport.  Could be Wolf Pirates.  Could be Teshnan traders.  Maybe even Handran merchants (the Lunars obviously got their money to Greymane in Maniria).  I don't think you'll find enough wood to build a whole transport fleet, but coins they've got a lot of (plus the plunder of the Big Rubble).

This is what I was wondering. Perhaps they sent an expedition to Teshnos to build ships and sail them back to Corflu?

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

This is what I was wondering. Perhaps they sent an expedition to Teshnos to build ships and sail them back to Corflu?

They could have shipped the timber in Moonboats, which, if timed properly, could have made the iffy parts of the trip in no time at all. At least, that's how I'd have done it if I were Jar-Eel of the Eel Arian.

[Ian Absentia]

20 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Oh, I don't think we're done here by a long shot. 

See, @seasparrow?  Open a can of human beans and out spills goodness.

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The point of Corflu was to serve as a trade port, though.  It does not have the resources to become a shipbuilding center

I'll comfortably concede this.  Spotty mangroves aside, Corflu is where swamp meets sea.  It can, however, serve as a pivotal military depot for the Lunars.  With investment of sufficient resources and engineering (and tell me the Lunars aren't into that sort of thing, am I right, @Nick Brooke?), Corflu can, and should, become a garrison and transfer hub for naval support of the invasion of the Holy Land.  Maybe my earlier assertions were a little grandiose, but I'm keeping my claws in deep on this one.

18 hours ago, Leingod said:

10 years (tops, and only for the first wave) isn't a "generation," since only young children would have actually "known no home but the Zola Fel and the Grantlands" at that point. 

I exaggerate to make a point.  Why wouldn't I?  Admission in hand, though, the Lunars have been a recent presence in Prax dating back to the invasion of 1608.  They are a distinct cultural and generational influence dating back prior to the Grantlands settlements.  I feel certain that, circa 1625, we have the all-important demographic of young men aged 13-21 well represented among the displaced culturally-Lunar Praxians.

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

But in one way or another the [Grantlands] colony is destroyed. I don't think that means that the nomads slaughtered every settler - rather I suspect most settlers were forced to flee somewhere else. New Pavis, Sun County, Corfu, Horngate, Moonbroth, wherever. 

And here's where the rubber really begins to grip the road.  Even a more modestly-expanded Corflu, utilised by the Lunars as a military garrison and depot, is going to be virtually unrecognisable from what we last saw depicted in Pavis:GtA. -- the military/trade boomtown I described earlier.  It won't necessarily be pretty, but it'll be bigger, and growing every day, either from Lunar investment or from congregation of river folk looking to prosper on the periphery.  As order begins to unravel upriver, it's going to be one of the last identifiable -- and fortifiable -- bastions of "Lunar" presence in Prax. even after it's liberated in 1624.  It's one of the places Lunars are going to congregate to be near others of their kind, and the boomtown is going to surge again.  For most it's going to be the end of the line, but for those of means, like the Raus', it's the jumping-off point for...someplace better?  Maybe a safer passage back to the Empire than north through hostile Prax?

Okay.  I finally feel like I'm getting my feet under me in the 1625-and-forward Era.

!i!

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

And here's where the rubber really begins to grip the road.  Even a more modestly-expanded Corflu, utilised by the Lunars as a military garrison and depot, is going to be virtually unrecognisable from what we last saw depicted in Pavis:GtA. -- the military/trade boomtown I described earlier.  It won't necessarily be pretty, but it'll be bigger, and growing every day, either from Lunar investment or from congregation of river folk looking to prosper on the periphery.  As order begins to unravel upriver, it's going to be one of the last identifiable -- and fortifiable -- bastions of "Lunar" presence in Prax. even after it's liberated in 1624.  It's one of the places Lunars are going to congregate to be near others of their kind, and the boomtown is going to surge again.  For most it's going to be the end of the line, but for those of means, like the Raus', it's the jumping-off point for...someplace better?  Maybe a safer passage back to the Empire than north through hostile Prax?

Okay.  I finally feel like I'm getting my feet under me in the 1625-and-forward Era.

!i!

Maybe it does an Arrolia and becomes a sort of religously/culturally Lunar city-state that is, for practical reasons, politically independent of the Empire. 

Then, as the decades go on, its Lunarism starts deviating in certain ways, creating a unique denomination, as it were, of Praxian Lunarism. 

Then again, the entire area gets washed away with the Flood eventually, so this might be too optimistic.

[Ian Absentia]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Then again, the entire area gets washed away with the Flood eventually, so this might be too optimistic.

But it was a glorious glimpse of heaven while it lasted!

!i!

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Corflu can, and should, become a garrison and transfer hub for naval support of the invasion of the Holy Land.  Maybe my earlier assertions were a little grandiose, but I'm keeping my claws in deep on this one.

Definitely agree that it has garrison and provides support for the attack on Karse (and even the capture of the shipbuilding center at Sklar).  Can it sustain anything beyond that in the face of the Great Winter?  Hard to say, but once Heortland is taken in 1620 and Whitewall falls, there is little role for Corflu since Karse provides the port the Lunars need and want for trade with the Holy Country.  Does a hazardous route first downriver and then by sea (including whatever Wolf Pirates remained after Harrek sailed off) offer any advantage over the overland route to Sartar?  Its very "success" is its own demise!

14 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

As order begins to unravel upriver, it's going to be one of the last identifiable -- and fortifiable -- bastions of "Lunar" presence in Prax. even after it's liberated in 1624.  It's one of the places Lunars are going to congregate to be near others of their kind, and the boomtown is going to surge again.  For most it's going to be the end of the line, but for those of means, like the Raus', it's the jumping-off point for...someplace better? 

To me the boom appears very limited (to ~1620) and then subsides once more (aside from Lunar explorations at Feroda). However, the Exodus from the Grantlands may serve as a stirring story.  Can whatever is left at Corflu sustain them though?  Or perhaps better to try to reach Refuge or Casino Town?

[Ian Absentia]

33 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Definitely agree that it has garrison and provides support for the attack on Karse (and even the capture of the shipbuilding center at Sklar).  Can it sustain anything beyond that in the face of the Great Winter?  Hard to say, but once Heortland is taken in 1620 and Whitewall falls, there is little role for Corflu since Karse provides the port the Lunars need and want for trade with the Holy Country.  [...snip...]  Its very "success" is its own demise!

Yes, yes, I see your point (and I forgot about the Fall of Whitewall in 1620 -- I thought it was later).  Perhaps it's more appropriate to say that there's a greatly diminished role for Corflu once Karse is connected to an inland supply chain.   Well, like any good boomtown, it's boom and bust in rapid succession. 

33 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Does a hazardous route first downriver and then by sea (including whatever Wolf Pirates remained after Harrek sailed off) offer any advantage over the overland route to Sartar? 

This is a very relevant question, and one probably not clearly defined by extant sources.  Maybe it does under the right circumstances, depending on how the war in Dragon Pass is going in any given year.  There's certainly food and goods from the Grantlands to support the troops stationed in Heortland.  The problem with any campaign of expansion is reliance on an extended line of support.  Perhaps the Lunars are forward-thinking enough to develop redundancies?  You know, provided they can afford to do so.

33 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

However, the Exodus from the Grantlands may serve as a stirring story.  Can whatever is left at Corflu sustain them though?  Or perhaps better to try to reach Refuge or Casino Town?

And thus we arrive at Casablanca.  Full disclosure, Corflu is where I placed Sanctuary from Thieves' World, not at Refuge where it was originally playtested as I understand.  Not that any of this matters, as Refuge is it's own non-copyright-entangled town now.  Before long, the Beysibs...er...the Waertagi are going to turn up and it all goes to shit again.

!i!

Edited August 13, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[jajagappa]

48 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

This is a very relevant question, and one probably not clearly defined by extant sources.  Maybe it does under the right circumstances, depending on how the war in Dragon Pass is going in any given year. 

And probably doesn't need to be.  I think that's the opportunity for GM's - not all needs to be so tightly locked up that it can't be boom-and-bust town in one game, abandoned "naval" facility (complete with Watchdog) in another, and ne'er-do-well backwater in a third.

50 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

er...the Waertagi are going to turn up and it all goes to shit again.

Nothing like the arrival of a dragonship to get attention!

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

But it was a glorious glimpse of heaven while it lasted!

 

That's an invitation to Heroquest to save it if I ever saw one.

[Bohemond]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They could have shipped the timber in Moonboats, which, if timed properly, could have made the iffy parts of the trip in no time at all. At least, that's how I'd have done it if I were Jar-Eel of the Eel Arian.

I guess I see moonbeams as being passenger vessels much more than cargo vessels. There can't been that many of them and they probably take a lot of magical resources. And warships take a lot of lumber. 

[Bohemond]

The more I think about it, a successful Lunar assault on Karse seems very odd. How much naval experience do the Lunars actually have? They're a land empire with only one major coastal zone, so it seems unlikely that they have a lot of experience with naval combat. And their naval skills would mostly be suited to rivers and an inland sea, rather than the most roughly conditions of the Homeward Ocean, so whatever naval forces Karse had available to it would seem like they would have the upper hand in terms of the fighting conditions and experience. The Lunar navy can't have been very large, given the problem of trying to build ships in a region that has little lumber---how large a navy could the Empire build at Corflu? The Lunar army can't really get to Karse very easily, so their prowess at land combat doesn't help them. They're way far from the Glowline, so their magic is going to be hampered. They probably couldn't bring the Bat to bear, simply because they would have the trouble of feeding it on the way there.

So how did the Lunars pull this off?

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Bohemond said:

And warships take a lot of lumber. 

Not necessarily. All they needed to do was to get from Corflu to Karse. They didn't need to be particularly strong or seaworthy for that single voyage.

Also, the Lunars get Water Elementals through the Young Elementals, so they could use them to shore up any shoddy ships.