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Orlanthi cultural groups


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I don't exactly know if the term "cultural group" is correct but to clarify I'm referring to the likes of the Heortlings or the Esrolians. Those two are widely known and present clear differences in their social structures and customs, despite both being orlanthi, but a Dragon Pass map I saw put the Tarshites within an "Alakoring" group. I suppose by that that the Tarshites are culturally marked by the Dragonbreaker, but that creates me some questions. Alakoring was from Ralios, but the tarshites came from southern Peloria right? So, are all the orlanthi of Peloria (like Talastari, Brolian, Bilini, etc.) Alakorings too? What about the Orlanthi from Ralios? Is there a comprehensive list of the orlanthi cultural groups and their characteristics?

(Also, I attach the map in question)

1598788894_Tribesofdragonpass.thumb.jpg.ca69edd0ba71f7af53bd91e0d42cc5b4.jpg

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It's a bit tricky and some of the old statements made are now considered to have been too sweeping.  My own interpretation is as follows.

I don't believe there is a such a group as the Alakorings.  There are peoples who were influenced by Alakoring (who brought forth Orlanth Rex) but even the Sartarites accept Orlanth Rex and the old defintion did not include them.

The Tarshites are of the Northern Heortling stock (in contrast to the South Heortlings of Sartar and the Hendriki) and have been so since the Dawn Age.  Any social distinction between the two has been amplified by a) the Tarshite acceptance of Lunar Ways and b) the Tarshite acceptance of lowlander Pelorian ways).  The Tarshites don't really have tribes any more, the old tribal divisions have withered away in fvour of civic identifty (Bagnot, Dunstop, Furthest etc).  Even if a Tarshite doesn't live in the city, he identifies himself and his kindred with the local city.  

The Northern Heortlings also include the Aggarites and the Holayans.  There's two more kingdoms (imther and Vanch) that lie between them and the Lunar Heartlands proper but the Heartlanders regard them as Orlanthi Barbarians and the Northern Heortlings regard them as Lowlander Pelorians.  

To the west of Aggar is a third Orlanthi ethnic group, the Talastari.  Rather than worship Orlanth at Kero Fin, they worship him at Top of the World.  They hare distinguished into three groups (Lakrene, Talastar proper and Anadiki).  Lakrene has been lowlandized for over a thousand years now while their Talastari are quite proud of their Orlanthi identity to the extent they wipe their bottoms with white shirts.  At the same time the Talastari have adopted many lowland ways (like wear hoplite armour) so they could be considered similar to the Northern Heortlings (even though both nations would reject the comparison).  The Anadiki are just Talastari who have adopted very few lowlander ways IMO.

The Orlanthi of Ralios are yet another ethnic group and more different than the Talastari and the Southern Heortlings.  They have common gods and practices (Orlanth Rex came from here) but many other customs would be quite exotic to the Orlanthi of Peloria or Dragon Pass.

 

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7 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Where is the map from?

I found it looking in Google images a while a go. I searched for a source but all I found were reposts on pinterest, which is a mess of a site, and can't even read the names of the authors in the image due to the low resolution. 

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I could see Southern Heortlings (whom I've also seen called Southern Theyalans) referring to all the Northern Heortlings by the broad category of "Alakoring," as mostly just a way of referring to them as a large, general category of "those guys up north who are still Heortlings, but are kinda weird about it."

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10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As best as I can see, the map was made by Stephen Tempest (2003?) with suggestions from Wesley Quadros, Brian Fogel?, Andy House?, William Church and Greg Stafford

I've not seen it before, but the dates and names suggest something out of the Unspoken Word efforts.

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33 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I could see Southern Heortlings (whom I've also seen called Southern Theyalans) referring to all the Northern Heortlings by the broad category of "Alakoring," as mostly just a way of referring to them as a large, general category of "those guys up north who are still Heortlings, but are kinda weird about it."

I can't remember where - it's possibly from some archived mailing list exchange that I trawled through, or maybe from archived comments on the old Glorantha website - but someone somewhere basically concurred with you. "Alakoring" is an exonym, not an endonym. Put very broadly, it appears to be what the Orlanthi south of the Rockwoods call the Orlanthi north of the Rockwoods, more or less. 

It's also notable that in the Guide, several Orlanthi groups are described - if I remember correctly - as "traditional/conventional Heortling", which seems to be a general term for those Orlanthi whose traditions derive from the Heortlings proper (ie. those of Dragon Pass and Heortland at the Dawn), and includes, iirc, Vesmontrans, Talastari, Tarshites, Manirians, etc. I'm not entirely sure about the exact criteria (it's probably a fairly loose term), but clan-based corporatism, mixed agrarian and pastoral subsistence, reigning chiefs with sacred marriages to the earth (priestesses), elected clan rings, and so on are probably typical markers. 

Esrolians, with their lack of reigning chiefs and elected rings are not Heortlings, and I suppose several groups with strong Malkioni or Pelorian influences probably also doubiously qualify, but that might be a different topic. Brolians are hunter-gatherers, iirc, not sure if they "count". 

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Some things to note that haven't been specifically covered:

There's also Red Dragon Valley/Ormsgone Valley, which is a group of about 10k people living in the gap between Black Horse County and Tarsh on that map. At that size, I assume they're multiple tribes, but they don't seem to have a centralized confederation or kingdom. Based on what little's been said about them and their geography, we can presume that the majority of the population are former Tarshites and vendref. Quite possibly they serve as a kind of marchland/demilitarized zone between Tarsh and the horse people to their south. (Perhaps some poetic centurion called the area "Little Redlands".) 

Wenelia- the Orlanthi people here are called Harandings and Entruli. Entru is a god, associated with pigs and with the goddess Ketha who gives her name to Kethaela. Harand, however, is a figure from the Lawstaff story, who rejects Orlanth's legal judgement and attempts to invoke the Law of Violence to steal land. It's possible that this is an exonym to emphasize the brutishness of the Wenelians, the "western barbarians". Harand is also called "Harand Boardick", so this may well be an endonym instead. 

Culturally, we should probably presume they're distinct from Heortlings in general like Esrolians are, in that they grew from a distinct population of people who were brought into the Theyalan sphere, but I don't think there's any clear signs of how distinct they are, beyond the Ditali people next door to Esrolia adopting Esrolian material culture and the Pelushi people doing the same with Caladralander material culture. 

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4 hours ago, Eff said:

Wenelia- the Orlanthi people here are called Harandings and Entruli. Entru is a god, associated with pigs and with the goddess Ketha who gives her name to Kethaela. Harand, however, is a figure from the Lawstaff story, who rejects Orlanth's legal judgement and attempts to invoke the Law of Violence to steal land. It's possible that this is an exonym to emphasize the brutishness of the Wenelians, the "western barbarians". Harand is also called "Harand Boardick", so this may well be an endonym instead. 

Culturally, we should probably presume they're distinct from Heortlings in general like Esrolians are, in that they grew from a distinct population of people who were brought into the Theyalan sphere, but I don't think there's any clear signs of how distinct they are, beyond the Ditali people next door to Esrolia adopting Esrolian material culture and the Pelushi people doing the same with Caladralander material culture. 

Yeah, I'll be babbling about the Entrulings soon enough, but they're definitely not Alakoring, even if that is a useful label.  

The Entruli of the Second Age were small, isolated clans who lived in the hidden valleys of Kotor (what is now central Maniria).  They were Orlanthi more than anything else, but Orlanth was a distant king for them, not someone you worship to survive the next year.  

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A little nomenclature.

We have the Theyalans - this is the big linguistic-cultural group that covers much of central and southern Genertela. They include the Esrolians, the Manirians (except the Ramali), much of Ralios, southern and eastern Fronela, the Pelorian hill country, Dragon Pass, etc. They speak related languages, all descended from Stormspeech.

Orlanthi - these are Theyalans that have Orlanth as one of their main gods. Most Theyalans are Orlanthi, but in Peloria many Theyalans are now Lunars and not Orlanthi.

The Heortlings. These are the Orlanthi peoples that originated in Heortland circa 1300. They are the old Sartarites and the Hendriki. Also called Heortlander or even just Sartarite.

Tarshites. These are the people that settled northern Dragon Pass circa 1350 or so. They are the Tarshites, the Tarsh Exiles, and the Far Point and Alone tribes.

Esrolians - these are the Theyalan people of Nochet. Ernalda is the main deity and they are matriarchal. Sometimes considered Orlanthi, sometimes not. 

 

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The Tarsh Exiles, Alda-Chur, and Alone tribes speak the same language, but have very different histories. The Alda-Churi are the oldest, with their tribes all centuries old. They've always been more or less autonomous and only joined Sartar in 1582 or so (although they have been allies for most of the preceding century). They were never part of Lunar Tarsh.

The Tarsh Exiles and the Alone tribes are the rump of the Old Tarshites who refused to acknowledge Furthest. When Phargentes came to power, he was rejected by the tribes east of Dunstop, Bagnot, etc. However, after the Battle of Grizzly Peak, Moirades took Bagnot and razed the Bush Ranges. The survivors fled to Wintertop or Alone. Wintertop was under the protection of the Shaker's Temple (who the Lunars did not want to tangle with) and Alone was under the protection of Sartar.

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7 hours ago, Eff said:

Some things to note that haven't been specifically covered:

There's also Red Dragon Valley/Ormsgone Valley, which is a group of about 10k people living in the gap between Black Horse County and Tarsh on that map. At that size, I assume they're multiple tribes, but they don't seem to have a centralized confederation or kingdom. Based on what little's been said about them and their geography, we can presume that the majority of the population are former Tarshites and vendref. Quite possibly they serve as a kind of marchland/demilitarized zone between Tarsh and the horse people to their south. (Perhaps some poetic centurion called the area "Little Redlands".) 

Wenelia- the Orlanthi people here are called Harandings and Entruli. Entru is a god, associated with pigs and with the goddess Ketha who gives her name to Kethaela. Harand, however, is a figure from the Lawstaff story, who rejects Orlanth's legal judgement and attempts to invoke the Law of Violence to steal land. It's possible that this is an exonym to emphasize the brutishness of the Wenelians, the "western barbarians". Harand is also called "Harand Boardick", so this may well be an endonym instead. 

Culturally, we should probably presume they're distinct from Heortlings in general like Esrolians are, in that they grew from a distinct population of people who were brought into the Theyalan sphere, but I don't think there's any clear signs of how distinct they are, beyond the Ditali people next door to Esrolia adopting Esrolian material culture and the Pelushi people doing the same with Caladralander material culture. 

The people of Wenelia haven't been know as either of those names in some fifteen hundred years. The main groups in eastern Maniria are the Solanthi, Ditali, and Haradlaro (aka Longsi Land). All are Orlanthi and worship the Lightbringers.

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

A little nomenclature.

We have the Theyalans - this is the big linguistic-cultural group that covers much of central and southern Genertela. They include the Esrolians, the Manirians (except the Ramali), much of Ralios, southern and eastern Fronela, the Pelorian hill country, Dragon Pass, etc. They speak related languages, all descended from Stormspeech.

Orlanthi - these are Theyalans that have Orlanth as one of their main gods. Most Theyalans are Orlanthi, but in Peloria many Theyalans are now Lunars and not Orlanthi.

The Heortlings. These are the Orlanthi peoples that originated in Heortland circa 1300. They are the old Sartarites and the Hendriki. Also called Heortlander or even just Sartarite.

Tarshites. These are the people that settled northern Dragon Pass circa 1350 or so. They are the Tarshites, the Tarsh Exiles, and the Far Point and Alone tribes.

Esrolians - these are the Theyalan people of Nochet. Ernalda is the main deity and they are matriarchal. Sometimes considered Orlanthi, sometimes not. 

 

And where does the "Vingkotlings" term fit? Is it a term to refer to all the orlanthi before time or just to some of them? 

 

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47 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I didn't know Heortling was such a recent, localized term. I always got the impression that it spread with the Dawn Era Lightbringer missionaries. 

So not even the Northern Dragon Pass groups would've been known as Heortlings prior to the Dragonkill?

Depends on what time you are talking about. In the First Age, the Heortlings were a confederation of tribes centered on Dragon Pass and South Peloria, called the Kingdom of the Heortlings. But this kingdom was destroyed by the Broken Council, and although it was restored after the Gbaji Wars, it was increasingly irrelevant in the Second Age. It was replaced by the Kingdom of Dragon Pass or Kingdom of the Orlanthi, which later formed the core of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. 

Inhabitants of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends were identified by their clan (Ingolf of the Garanazar Clan) or by their geographical region, and not as "Heortlings". An exception was the Hendriki, who called themselves "Heortling" even though they were not one of the traditional Heortling tribes. The land they inhabited became known as Heortland. As they settled around the Quivin Mountains, those settlers also called themselves "Heortlings".

But these Heortlings are quite different than the Heortlings of sixteen centuries before.

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34 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

And where does the "Vingkotlings" term fit? Is it a term to refer to all the orlanthi before time or just to some of them? 

 

The Vingkotlings were a tribe founded by the demigod son of Orlanth some 5000 years ago. Most Orlanthi trace their descent to them, at least mythologically.

As an aside, here's a technique I use to understand the distance Glorantha's history - I position myself at the time of Alexander the Greek and look backwards.
 
Present year 1627
10 years ago - Lunar Empire invades Hendrikiland
25 years ago - Boldhome falls to the Lunar Empire
50 years ago - Battle of Grizzly Peak
100 years ago - Apotheosis of Sartar
300 years ago - Belintar unites Holy Country
500 years ago - the Dragonkill War (1120)
1000 years ago- the Kingdom of Dragon Pass. After this came the EWF.
1500 years ago - the Second Council. The Theyalans dominate Genertela and war with the Pelorian horse people.
2000 years ago - I Fought, We Won, and the Unity Battle. After this, came the Heortling kingdom, which lasted about 800 years (until Gbaji destroyed it).
2500 years ago - The Chaos Age, which lasted until the Unity Battle.
3000 years ago - the Ice Age
5000 years ago - the Vingkotlings
10,000 years ago - Orlanth kills Yelm

Compare this to a Greek at the time of Alexander (330 BC)
10 years ago - Philip founds Philippopolis
25 years ago - the Sacred War
50 years ago - Battle of Leuctra (371 BC)
100 years ago - start of the Peloponnesian War
300 years ago - fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
500 years ago - the neo-Assyrian Empire
1000 years ago - the Trojan War
1500 years ago - height of old Babylon
2000 years ago - Sargon and the Akkadian Empire
2500 years ago - Gilgamesh is king of Uruk
3000 years ago - Menes units Egypt (first dynasty)
5000 years ago - Neolithic cities like Catal Huyuk and Jericho
10,000 years ago - beginning of Neolithic age
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8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

But these Heortlings are quite different than the Heortlings of sixteen centuries before.

The equivalent distinction between Germans and Germans? (the former called Germanic People or Germani to better distinguish them, and the latter being modern day inhabitants of Germany)

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Just now, Tindalos said:

The equivalent distinction between Germans and Germans? (the former called Germanic People or Germani to better distinguish them, and the latter being modern day inhabitants of Germany)

Time distance is about the same. 

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Depends on what time you are talking about. In the First Age, the Heortlings were a confederation of tribes centered on Dragon Pass and South Peloria, called the Kingdom of the Heortlings. But this kingdom was destroyed by the Broken Council, and although it was restored after the Gbaji Wars, it was increasingly irrelevant in the Second Age. It was replaced by the Kingdom of Dragon Pass or Kingdom of the Orlanthi, which later formed the core of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. 

Inhabitants of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends were identified by their clan (Ingolf of the Garanazar Clan) or by their geographical region, and not as "Heortlings". An exception was the Hendriki, who called themselves "Heortling" even though they were not one of the traditional Heortling tribes. The land they inhabited became known as Heortland. As they settled around the Quivin Mountains, those settlers also called themselves "Heortlings".

But these Heortlings are quite different than the Heortlings of sixteen centuries before.

Thank you, that's a very succinct summary. :) 
 

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9 hours ago, Jeff said:

A little nomenclature.

We have the Theyalans - this is the big linguistic-cultural group that covers much of central and southern Genertela. They include the Esrolians, the Manirians (except the Ramali), much of Ralios, southern and eastern Fronela, the Pelorian hill country, Dragon Pass, etc. They speak related languages, all descended from Stormspeech.

Orlanthi - these are Theyalans that have Orlanth as one of their main gods. Most Theyalans are Orlanthi, but in Peloria many Theyalans are now Lunars and not Orlanthi.

The Heortlings. These are the Orlanthi peoples that originated in Heortland circa 1300. They are the old Sartarites and the Hendriki. Also called Heortlander or even just Sartarite.

Tarshites. These are the people that settled northern Dragon Pass circa 1350 or so. They are the Tarshites, the Tarsh Exiles, and the Far Point and Alone tribes.

Esrolians - these are the Theyalan people of Nochet. Ernalda is the main deity and they are matriarchal. Sometimes considered Orlanthi, sometimes not. 

 

This was very helpful to me.

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Dundealos tribe, destroyed in 1618, will indeed be restored in 1626. A 96 page book about it is being written for french RQG version, by the end of this year. Most likely translated in english sometime in the future.

One of the illustrations shared by Studio Deadcrows, by Bernard Bittler:

CAVALIER_PRAXIEN_light_.jpg

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