New Magic Spells and Skill Points

[GothmogIV]

Question about BRP: I was just reading the rules about wizards. If I am understanding the rules correctly...

A magic user has a spell with an % equal to her INT. So, if she has blast, her initial skill with blast is 18%. During her character build, she can allocate additional points to make this skill more likely to be successful. Same with other spells she initially begins with. Right?

But later in her career, she gains access to another spell (let's say flame). Her initial skill with flame is 18% (her INT). BUT, she has no additional skill points to allocate to this spell, right? 

So what is the incentive to gain and use new spells? The likelihood of using the news spell successfully is low, and therefore she is unlikely to gain skill checks to increase her spell ability by 1d6. 

This seems like a not so great way to do magic.  Thoughts?  

[rsanford]

You guys hurry up and answer! I have thought the same thing before!

[g33k]

It's a model of skill-growth where new skills are more-challenging to perform than familiar ones.

Do not forget the inverse odds (at least in RQ, which I know better) of skill-gain from a skill-check; the check may be harder to get, but the gain is more-likely than for higher-skilled folk.

There's also training & practice.

 

But yes, it's definitely a different model than the wizard who is "master of arcane arts!"  More in the vein of Mickey Mouse as the Sorceror's Apprentice...

Edited September 12, 2020 by g33k
simile

[Lloyd Dupont]

mmm....
I forgot about this funny issue since I used XP like Mythras for improvement...

Yeah it looks like it would be a bad idea to risk it in combat...
However, as well as game experience (p182) one could improve with training (p184) and research (p185)!

In fact this make me think.. I should give XP check mar another go perhaps.. since XP mark, training and research, all 3 together might be more to my liking, come to think of it....
(currently using XP as in Mythras)

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Richard S.]

Keep in mind you can train skills as well, which is more reliable than learning by experience at lower level. So yes, while a new spell would have a very low starting percentage, the expectation is that you'd spend a while practicing and training it.

[g33k]

I am liking the RQG rule, wherein you get to train the skills you got a usage/success check, but also get to select a few others, from a couple of categories.

 

[Lloyd Dupont]

50 minutes ago, g33k said:

I am liking the RQG rule, wherein you get to train the skills you got a usage/success check, but also get to select a few others, from a couple of categories.

 

is it like the usual check mark BRP improvement + session XP like Mythras, both together?

(As well as training and research as usual)

[g33k]

50 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

is it like the usual check mark BRP improvement + session XP like Mythras, both together?

(As well as training and research as usual)

Mostly checkmark, but a few (iirc 4) chose your own (within some limits).

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Not BTB, but I am leaning towards magic systems which either use skills or magic points, but not both. It's always seemed like double jeopardy to me.

[Mugen]

To bo honest, the same could be said for almost any skill, not only spells. Why does a character that has a long fighting experience suddenly returns to square one when he has a new weapon in hands ? Of course, no-one expects that he performs as well as with a weapon he's used for years either...

My solution would be to have one broad base success chance per skill category, which increases with experience, and treat each skill as a bonus to this base chance.

[GothmogIV]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

To bo honest, the same could be said for almost any skill, not only spells. Why does a character that has a long fighting experience suddenly returns to square one when he has a new weapon in hands ? Of course, no-one expects that he performs as well as with a weapon he's used for years either...

My solution would be to have one broad base success chance per skill category, which increases with experience, and treat each skill as a bonus to this base chance.

That's what I was thinking as well. Have a skill like Cast or something, that begins with INT+POW, and the PC can put skill points into it during the build. 

[NickMiddleton]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

To bo honest, the same could be said for almost any skill, not only spells. Why does a character that has a long fighting experience suddenly returns to square one when he has a new weapon in hands ? Of course, no-one expects that he performs as well as with a weapon he's used for years either...

Um, in BGB BRP they don’t, if it’s a weapon in _category_ they are familiar with, or even just similar too:

”Each specialty in Melee Weapon applies to weapons from that category of weapon only: to learn how to use a different weapon category, your character must learn a second Melee Weapon skill and specialty. At the gamemaster’s discretion, your character can wield a weapon from a related or similar weapon category, with the skill roll being Difficult.”

”The descriptions for the Heavy Weapon, Melee Weapon, and Missile Weapon skills in Chapter Three: Skills all refer to weapon specialties and weapon class- es. A weapon class is a rough group the weapon belongs to, while the specialty is your character’s familiarity with that class. Weapons are broken up into classes, while skills are broken into specialties.”

As regards spell casting, I’ve never liked the “skill per spell” / “skill per manipulation” model, as I said elsewhere recently, just have a single “Sorcery” (or whatever skill) and let exceptional successes improve casting and failures fumbles impair / botch castings etc.

34 minutes ago, GothmogIV said:

That's what I was thinking as well. Have a skill like Cast or something, that begins with INT+POW, and the PC can put skill points into it during the build. 

Exactly.

By all means one could rank spells into  broad classes of difficulty such that easy spells have a bonus to cast, or hard spells can only be attempted if ones skill exceeds a threshold like 50%, or the time effort to learn varies etc... But for most models of spell casting a skill per spell, and no equivalent of weapon categories so ones skill with a spell in the same category is the same, seems oddly limited. 

[DreadDomain]

9 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

is it like the usual check mark BRP improvement + session XP like Mythras, both together?

(As well as training and research as usual)

Yes, more of less. Like standard BRP, RQG has experience, research and training which is usually tallied every seasons. The difference is that in addition to you checked skill boxes, you can choose 4 additionnal occupational or cult skills and roll experience for them.

Also, spirit magic and rune magic are not skill-based. Each spirit spell are cast ar POWx5% and for rune spells you must roll against the appropriate rune. Sorcery however is skill-based and new spells starts at your Magic modifier + 1d6. Sorcery is a more "academic" approach to magic so it makes sense.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Thanks for that in-depth explanation.
Interesting ideas...

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Mugen said:

To bo honest, the same could be said for almost any skill, not only spells. Why does a character that has a long fighting experience suddenly returns to square one when he has a new weapon in hands ? Of course, no-one expects that he performs as well as with a weapon he's used for years either...

My solution would be to have one broad base success chance per skill category, which increases with experience, and treat each skill as a bonus to this base chance.

The old (RQ2) solution was to have weapon skills cross over to related weapons at half ability. So someone who knew how to use an ax at 80%, could use a mace at 40%, instead of the starting percentage, and so forth.

[Atgxtg]

24 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Thanks for that in-depth explanation.
Interesting ideas...

I think they borrowed that from Pendragon. Pendragon has a "Winter Phase" where people mostly stay a home, and can get training and practice in some skills. RQG's pacing is like Pendragon's only with one adventure per season instead of per year. 

[g33k]

3 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

... for rune spells you must roll against the appropriate rune ...

Runes in RQG work, mechanically, very much like skills (for purposes of casting).

I don't think you can increase them with "training"/etc but there's plenty of other ways to do so!

Edited September 13, 2020 by g33k

[Mugen]

4 hours ago, GothmogIV said:

That's what I was thinking as well. Have a skill like Cast or something, that begins with INT+POW, and the PC can put skill points into it during the build. 

Maybe one Cast skill per magic type For instance : Cast (Elemental magic), Cast (Mind magic), Cast (Life Magic), Cast (Metamagic), and so on.

This would force magicians to specialize a bit.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Runes in RQG work, mechanically, very much like skills (for purposes of casting).

I don't think you can increase them with "training"/etc but there's plenty of other ways to do so!

As far as I have understood,in RQG, you can train or study runes.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

The old (RQ2) solution was to have weapon skills cross over to related weapons at half ability. So someone who knew how to use an ax at 80%, could use a mace at 40%, instead of the starting percentage, and so forth.

Inside same category, yes. Same for RQG.

[hix]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

Cast skill per magic type

This one does this sort of thing very well.

[DreadDomain]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Runes in RQG work, mechanically, very much like skills (for purposes of casting).

I don't think you can increase them with "training"/etc but there's plenty of other ways to do so!

I was only mentionning it because for rune magic and spirit magic, you do not learn a new skill at a lower base value than your under spells. If you Air rune is at 85%, any new air rune spell you learn will start at 85%. In a sense, experience works a bit better in RQG (you don't have to chase skill checks) and the problem evoked in the OP only happens in Sorcery.

[DreadDomain]

8 hours ago, GothmogIV said:

That's what I was thinking as well. Have a skill like Cast or something, that begins with INT+POW, and the PC can put skill points into it during the build. 

Mythras works along these lines with each types of magic (theism, sorcery, mysticism, animism) governed by two skills, one that manages the strength of you spells and the other your ability to cast it.

Rune magic in RQG also works like this. Each spell is associated in one or more runes and your ability to cast it, if you know the spell,  is tied with your connection (represented as a %) to the best of those runes.

[DreadDomain]

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think they borrowed that from Pendragon. Pendragon has a "Winter Phase" where people mostly stay a home, and can get training and practice in some skills. RQG's pacing is like Pendragon's only with one adventure per season instead of per year. 

Hardly surprising. Many innovations of RQG are directly inspired by Pendragon and adapted to it to make more sense for RuneQuest. The seasonal rythm instead of yearly, personality traits integrated into runes (which leads to character emulating their gods true nature), etc. Passions are pretty much the same (except on a d100) but, I believe, the experience roll for 4 additionnal occupational or cult skills does not come from KAP. Or does it?

Anyway, colour me happy for how KAP influenced RQG.

[Mugen]

9 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Mythras works along these lines with each types of magic (theism, sorcery, mysticism, animism) governed by two skills, one that manages the strength of you spells and the other your ability to cast it.

That's only really true for animism. Other magic systems require a separate skill for each god or magic tradition. 

If your magic tradition doesn't learn Fly, you'll have to find oje that does, and learn their Invoke skill (though tye Shaping skill will stay the same).