sorcery headache: how do you counter steal breath?

[Kloster]

30 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Nobody should go looking for RQ3 rules unless they used to play that game and have the boxes around the house.

As me and the various groups I've been part of have probably 10 complete RQ3 sets (i have 1 AH complete set, 1 GW complete set and 1 complete Oriflam set), but none of us has the guide, this is the only reference we can use.

[Godlearner]

Quote

Same, why consider it linked to chaos?

Don't remember, but from when I first started playing Tapping was considered tied to Chaos in my play group. Perhaps it was because it was so permanent and had no POW vs POW roll. It was one of the most hated spells by players. 

[Lordabdul]

18 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As me and the various groups I've been part of have probably 10 complete RQ3 sets (i have 1 AH complete set, 1 GW complete set and 1 complete Oriflam set), but none of us has the guide, this is the only reference we can use.

Sure but at least you can get the Guide's PDFs. Nobody can get RQ3 books except via (sometimes expensive) second hand market.

My point is merely that we should remember to keep these forums friendly to newcomers. The RQ2/3 grognardia and discussions that exclude newer players is one of the reasons that some of the authors don't come here too often.

[Kloster]

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Sure but at least you can get the Guide's PDFs.

A bit expensive for a pdf, and the books are far too expensive for my budget.

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Nobody can get RQ3 books except via (sometimes expensive) second hand market.

Of course. We just purchased 30 years ago. For new players, the guide is the right choice and RQ3 is not.

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

My point is merely that we should remember to keep these forums friendly to newcomers.

Completely agree here.

[Lordabdul]

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

A bit expensive for a pdf, and the books are far too expensive for my budget.

If only there had been a recent holiday for which you could have made heavy-handed nudges that your loved ones buy you one of these things as a gift  

(but yes, they're not overpriced when you consider the amount of content in there, but they're definitely expensive)

[Kloster]

14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

but yes, they're not overpriced when you consider the amount of content in there, but they're definitely expensive

That's exactly my point, and is the reason I continue to use as reference the RQ3 products that don't cost me anything now because everything has been purchased between '86 and '95. I am not complaining about the price. From what I have heard here, it is worth it. I just can not afford it.

Just as an explanation, the cost of the guide, plus S&H cost is about for me equivalent to 2 weeks of food for me and my family (and I have an above average french salary).

Edited January 1, 2021 by Kloster
Add last line

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Why is it considered Chaos by Orlanthi (we agree Aeolians are slightly special Orlanthi)?

Because you are destroying Air for your own gain, which is the same as advancing entropy little by little.

[Kloster]

25 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Because you are destroying Air for your own gain, which is the same as advancing entropy little by little.

In that case, you are speaking of Tap Air (and I quite agree), but we were speaking of Tap in a more generic way. On steal Breath (=Tap Air), could it be seen as 'asking Orlanth to give you some energy'?

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Don't remember, but from when I first started playing Tapping was considered tied to Chaos in my play group.

It was not in mine (hence my question). It was considered evil (as described in GoG), but not Chaos.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Perhaps it was because it was so permanent and had no POW vs POW roll.

As we played (and continue to play) that all attack spells have a POW vs POW except when noted differently (Sunspear for example).

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

It was one of the most hated spells by players. 

Same for us.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Godlearner]

Quote

As we played (and continue to play) that all attack spells have a POW vs POW except when noted differently (Sunspear for example).

This is the one sorcery spell that did not have this, others all had either Intensity vs something or POW vs something rolls.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Because you are destroying Air for your own gain, which is the same as advancing entropy little by little.

I haven't found any source linking Tapping to Chaos? It's considered immoral and evil, sure, but not Chaotic AFAICT.

[Kloster]

9 hours ago, Godlearner said:

This is the one sorcery spell that did not have this, others all had either Intensity vs something or POW vs something rolls.

You are right, nothing is written. We nonetheless have it played with the POW vs POW roll, which, combined with Touch range, means they were rarely used.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I haven't found any source linking Tapping to Chaos? It's considered immoral and evil, sure, but not Chaotic AFAICT.

The only link to Chaos I know of is the Borists that can only Tap chaos beings, making them anti-chaos.

[Godlearner]

This is the closest thing I found so far out of GoG v1:

Quote

Tapping is the sorcerous conversion of a local manifestation of a Rune into raw magical energy, which then can be used by the sorcerer to power other spells. For example, a sorcerer learned in the Stasis Rune, might tap the Stasis out of a rock, reducing it to dust, or another might tap the Life out of a tree, killing the orchard to get magical power. Most Malkioni, except the Brithini, Vadeli, and Waertagi, consider Tapping to be immoral and evil.

 

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

This is the closest thing I found so far out of GoG v1:

Yep, same. Plus, some references that God Learners used Tapping techniques extensively to drain energy from the God Time, "extinguishing" a few things on the way (things that were supposed to be eternal, mind you, since they were part of the Gods Realm). Given what happened to the God Learners, it sounds like many people don't want to go down that slope, although a few (like the aforementioned Borists, plus a few other ones) think it's OK to use in select situations.

Note that, from what I understand from the Guide, casting Tap-based spells isn't immoral or evil per se. It looks to me like what the majority of Malkioni schools are doing is purposefully limiting their Tapping powers by not learning the Tapping technique itself. But they can still cast Tap-based spells by deriving Tapping knowledge from the other techqniques.... GtG v1 p48:

"However, the principle is inherent in Malkioni philosophy and is easily derived from the logical techniques the Malkioni use to summon, command, or combine Runes."

In effect (and in terms of RQG rules), they are limiting themselves to twice the casting time and twice the MP spend, so as to not get power-hungry and be tempted by the dark side, so to speak. On the same page, the example Debaldan School of Water Sorcery seems to teach Tap Water to its sorcerers, but without teaching the Tapping technique itself: they probably teach Tap Water through using, say, the Command technique or whatever, at double cost. In comparison, I get the feeling that the Boristi and Galvosti (p151) do teach Tapping itself (since these schools are "Tappers" and specifically referred to as "heresies of Malkionism") but I'm not sure...

Edited January 2, 2021 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Kloster said:

The only link to Chaos I know of is the Borists that can only Tap chaos beings, making them anti-chaos.

180° out I'm afraid, they can tap chaos because they are chaotic. Or vice versa.

Edited January 2, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

180° out I'm afraid, they can tap chaos because they are chaotic. Or vice versa.

Possible. The only think I seem to remember (apart of the part in GoG) is that others think they may be corrupted by using magical energy coming from chaos by their tapping, but I may be wrong. The anti chaos stuff is purely my personal reading.

[Kloster]

Not having the guide, but re re rereading GoG and this forum:

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Note that, from what I understand from the Guide, casting Tap-based spells isn't immoral or evil per se. It looks to me like what the majority of Malkioni schools are doing is purposefully limiting their Tapping powers by not learning the Tapping technique itself. But they can still cast Tap-based spells by deriving Tapping knowledge from the other techqniques.... GtG v1 p48:

"However, the principle is inherent in Malkioni philosophy and is easily derived from the logical techniques the Malkioni use to summon, command, or combine Runes."

This is what I have understood.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

In effect (and in terms of RQG rules), they are limiting themselves to twice the casting time and twice the MP spend, so as to not get power-hungry and be tempted by the dark side, so to speak. On the same page, the example Debaldan School of Water Sorcery seems to teach Tap Water to its sorcerers, but without teaching the Tapping technique itself: they probably teach Tap Water through using, say, the Command technique or whatever, at double cost. In comparison,

Same.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I get the feeling that the Boristi and Galvosti (p151) do teach Tapping itself (since these schools are "Tappers" and specifically referred to as "heresies of Malkionism") but I'm not sure...

According to GoG, yes, those may tap. Borists may tap chaos beings and Galvosti may tap non Malkioni.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Tapping is the sorcerous conversion of a local manifestation of a Rune into raw magical energy, which then can be used by the sorcerer to power other spells. For example, a sorcerer learned in the Stasis Rune, might tap the Stasis out of a rock, reducing it to dust, or another might tap the Life out of a tree, killing the orchard to get magical power. Most Malkioni, except the Brithini, Vadeli, and Waertagi, consider Tapping to be immoral and evil.

Thanks. Is there anything about what are thinking non Malkioni?

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

180° out I'm afraid, they can tap chaos because they are chaotic. Or vice versa.

They Tap Chaos to destroy the Chaos Rune and become chaotic due to their inability, eventually, to contain the chaotic energies within ... because of the tapped Chaos.

[Kloster]

14 hours ago, Godlearner said:

They Tap Chaos to destroy the Chaos Rune and become chaotic due to their inability, eventually, to contain the chaotic energies within ... because of the tapped Chaos.

That's more or less what I have understood. Thanks.

[French Desperate WindChild]

from "les dieux de glorantha"

brithini can tap anybody

boristi can tap chaotic creatures

galvosti can tap non malkioni creatures

 

of course when they are allowed to use sorcery.

I think that

brithini may consider their zzaburi will do the right thing in any case so they can tap their own people for a greater purpose

boristi may consider that tap chaos will "purify" (them to become chaotic if they believe chaos is purfication ? or chaos to be destroyed ? I don't know)

galvosti may consider that non malkioni creatures are no more than animals

Edited January 3, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[Brootse]

On 1/2/2021 at 12:11 AM, lordabdul said:

Sure but at least you can get the Guide's PDFs. Nobody can get RQ3 books except via (sometimes expensive) second hand market.

Spealing of the RQ3 book market, the local nerd shop chain ran out of the Finnish RQ3 rules boxes in 2019. Took them 28 years! 😀

[icebrand]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:17 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

What if everybody stands back and pretends to be casting Sorcery?  What do the trolls do then???

uzko: Casts darkwall and laughs at the pathetic humans; further actions determined by cult.

The food trollkin rain stones on the party to create suppressing fire. 

Superior trollkin will peek and cast extinguish on the group light sources.

That would be my 1st statement of intent in a situation like this.

[Shiningbrow]

On 1/3/2021 at 7:48 AM, Godlearner said:

They Tap Chaos to destroy the Chaos Rune and become chaotic due to their inability, eventually, to contain the chaotic energies within ... because of the tapped Chaos.

Unless they Tap themselves... 😛

[Godlearner]

On 1/23/2021 at 10:52 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Unless they Tap themselves... 😛

Catch 22 isn't it, but then that is the nature of Chaos, it does not follow logic and does not need a source to spontaneously come to be.  

[0xal0t]

As an avid player of Sorcerors/Philosophers they have a couple of big weaknesses. 

1 As stated above, if the target is not surprised it could take 5 rounds before the Conx5 roll becomes x4 and less. A good warrior could throw a spear or axe in that time and the problem is extinguished.

2 The more peltists/archers on the opposition the harder it is to stay alive

3 Countermagic/Shield - unless you are casting low level sorcery - not really a problem

4 Counter attacks, Nothing like a Disruption Spell to knock concentration or peltists above go for more small damage rather than big damage, keep chipping away at Concentration (Int x 3) with small stones etc.

5 Post spell attacks - My favourite is wait for everyone to burn MP on spells then hit them with Drain Soul - sleepy time

6 They cant move while casting, push the battle lines, Leap, jump, fly, charge - give them a fright and interrupt

7 High Power or High Con always helps

8 Blindness, Darkwall, Lightwall, they cant move and any impediment to targeting screws them

9 Fanaticism, Berserk  Shake Earth, Shattering, Fear, Befuddle, Demoralise, Group Laughter, Illusory Substance, Lightning, Madness, Mindblast, Panic

Time is the sorcerors friend, take it away, bypass the minions protecting them use area affect spells if their power is too high, and mutitudes of bee sting type attacks can wreck a sorcerors day