Lunar missionary work

[Elcid321]

let's say your a lunar missionary to pre-sartar dragon pass, and you've been given the work to preach the wisdom of the seven mothers and of sedenya to the sartarites (or maybe you arrived by accident and decided to take the opportunity).

How would you do it? what would you tell them? how do you make sure they don't kill you the moment they find out you worship the red moon?

[metcalph]

Stick to the cities where there are troops around to protect you.  The fuzzie-wuzzies in the wop-wops rural Sartarites can wait.

[soltakss]

Hey, you've got Humakt, but so do we in Yanafal Tarnils, and we have Chalana Arroy in Queen Deezola, and Lhankor Mhy in Irrippi Ontor and Issaries in Etyries and, look, they are all at the same temple to make it easier for you, except for Etyries but her market is in the square outside. Oh, and we have a Dark Room, a Wet Room, an Earth Room and a Hot Room where the Young Elementals live. Are you hungry? Come in, we'll feed you and give you a bed to sleep in. That shield looks damaged, we'll get our smiths to look at it for you. 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

let's say your a lunar missionary to pre-sartar dragon pass, and you've been given the work to preach the wisdom of the seven mothers and of sedenya to the sartarites (or maybe you arrived by accident and decided to take the opportunity).

How would you do it? what would you tell them? how do you make sure they don't kill you the moment they find out you worship the red moon?

The world is broken - we can all see it. The Old Gods fight mindlessly, their ancient feuds plague us with floods, famines, and other disasters. But the Seven Mothers gave birth to a chance of a new world, a healed world. One that does not need to endlessly refight old battles. A world of Time, where mortals can be Gods.

[Eff]

5 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

let's say your a lunar missionary to pre-sartar dragon pass, and you've been given the work to preach the wisdom of the seven mothers and of sedenya to the sartarites (or maybe you arrived by accident and decided to take the opportunity).

How would you do it? what would you tell them? how do you make sure they don't kill you the moment they find out you worship the red moon?

Prior to Sartar? I'm a long, long way from my base of operations, I'd probably keep moving south into the Holy Country. But assuming I'm an Etyries priestess or initiate who's been specifically sent to begin liberating the Quivini, my basic go-to tactic would be miracleworking. Mostly, the simple miracle of unequal exchange, of trading producing more for everyone. Give the local traders with their mules a taste of the benevolent power behind their "Shepelkirt", and rely heavily on traditions of peaceful respect for traders. Only volunteer Lunar teachings if asked, and present them reluctantly, demurely. The Lunar Provincial Church/Seven Mothers cult doesn't really have any reach here yet, if it even exists, so until/unless we get some proper cities to support things, there's not much point beginning the cornbread-and-psychedelics routine. 

If I had my actual setting knowledge, I'd focus on Yanafal Tarnils and Danfive Xaron stories and emphasize the story of the Red Goddess as one of liberation from tyranny, one where fleeing into the hills was an essential part of that liberation. If I'm among the clans and early tribes getting raided by Grazelanders, I'd probably sermonize on the Battle of Seven Horses frequently. 

[EricW]

Outcasts, thralls, poor cotters. The benign face of the Goddess is the healer, the repairer, the salvation from all the world's injustices and miseries. Orlanthi society might be great if you are strong and heroic, but not so pleasant if you are timid and weak and frequently bullied. The Goddess offers hope to people left behind by the brash barbarism of Orlanthi society.

[Jeff]

21 minutes ago, EricW said:

Outcasts, thralls, poor cotters. The benign face of the Goddess is the healer, the repairer, the salvation from all the world's injustices and miseries. Orlanthi society might be great if you are strong and heroic, but not so pleasant if you are timid and weak and frequently bullied. The Goddess offers hope to people left behind by the brash barbarism of Orlanthi society.

Ignore them Brother Erikwal. Preach in the cities to the literate, the educated, the well-traveled, and the curious. To those who chafe against the life of sheep and wheat. To those who need answers more than just what the Air and the Earth have always provided. The Issaries traders and Lhankor Mhy scribes are not our enemies or foes - aid them, show them that we give material support and spiritual relief. 

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

How would you do it?

Missionary workers generally start out by helping the misfortunate: orphans, poor people, those shunned by general society for what ever reason. Active proselytisation rarely works as it tends to call attention to the person. Here in the UK, we have the shouting on street corners variety and the soup kitchen variety.

8 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

what would you tell them?

Have a look at talking to the Moon Woman in HeroQuest Voices: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/issaries/heroquest-voices/

8 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

how do you make sure they don't kill you the moment they find out you worship the red moon?

see above. The trick is not to be confrontational. In previous games, my players worked for the lunars as individuals they were just like them. Sure, the local thane might send some warriors to watch them in case they summoned any chaos. But once those warriors had been give a cup of tea and asked to help hold this yarn so I call roll it into balls, their perception likely changes. It doesn't work on everyone, but it will work on most people. 

[Nick Brooke]

Remember, the missionaries will often be arguing against crass, heavy-handed military interventions. "Hearts and minds, Comrade General. Hearts and minds (and souls)." Staying on good terms with the local missionary can pay dividends. Pissing them off is dumb.

[Byll]

10 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

 "Hearts and minds, Comrade General. Hearts and minds (and souls)." 

"...as my Great Aunt put it in her last letter from Graclodont..."

[Jape_Vicho]

I love this topic already. 

Let's see, a lunar priest in pre-sartar dragon pass. One of the first things that comes to mind is showing the power of my different magic that locals lack. I would choose a clan that is struggling against a certain enemy against whom I have knowledge or counters that they lack. For exemple, I could approach clans that are having a bad time against the Telmori, and show them my knowledge about controlling and destroying chaos. I would appear to them as a strong wizard from the north that has seen power in their clan and want to help them attain it, once and if a great victory is achieved, then it would come the explanations. "You can wield this power too, and smite those that have wronged you, and to obtain that power you have to..." and proceed to coat with red their lightbringer pantheon (Orlanth doesn't need to be abandoned yet, but it would be wise to orientate their worship away from his role of chief). Then I would show them the marvels of the new Pelorian language, they can all learn it! If the clan is indebted to me and ready to take revenge on their enemies, they will follow. I would then essentially be the shadow chief of a clan that is expanding, those who fall under its boot would adopt lunarism too, and the need for more magic would attract more lunar priests from peloria, with them a temple-city can be founded. 

This of course could also go terribly wrong but it's an approach. 

 

Edit: even more radical, play with the broos. Find a clan that is struggling against them and losing, present to them as one who wants to save them, if they are so desperate they believe you, go into the broos hiding place and strike a deal with them. Where Orlanth has failed, Sedenya is victorious, while years of doing what Orlanth does has yielded only death and misfortune, a moment of doing what Sedenya does has eliminated the problem (for a price, but that does not have to matter to them in that exact moment). The broos can then be ignored or even use them to bolster the conquests. Of course like all dealings with chaos it will eventually have terrible consequences, but if Sedenya is willing, that would be when lunarism is already rooted. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jape_Vicho

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

This of course could also go terribly wrong but it's an approach. 

...Edit: even more radical, play with the broos.

This was, of course, the approach Nysalor took in Ralios in the First Age, though in that case it was providing healing from spirits of disease.

1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

"You can wield this power too, and smite those that have wronged you, and to obtain that power you have to..." and proceed to coat with red their lightbringer pantheon

The challenge with this is that if not done carefully, you'll win over some clans, but immediately get their enemies as your enemies.  

[Jape_Vicho]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

This was, of course, the approach Nysalor took in Ralios in the First Age, though in that case it was providing healing from spirits of disease.

Oh boy, repeating the errors of the First Age, what could go wrong?

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The challenge with this is that if not done carefully, you'll win over some clans, but immediately get their enemies as your enemies.  

Doesn't matter as long as they are smoten. 

[Elcid321]

This thread and it’s answers have made me wonder, how would a lunar-orlanthi sartar be? Would they be followers of the white moon? Would they worship both sedenya and orlanth? The only thing i feel sure of is that they would still fight against the lunar empire, kind of like if america became communist in the 30s would still probably fight the soviet union later on

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Elcid321 said:

how would a lunar-orlanthi sartar be? Would they be followers of the white moon? Would they worship both sedenya and orlanth?

Perhaps similar to Lunar-controlled Talastar or Holay (or Tarsh)? Lunars become more prominent/dominant in the cities, Orlanthi remain stronger amidst the clans.  Trade becomes increasingly dominated by Etyries cult.   

[Jape_Vicho]

Well there have been several orlanthi cultures that have converted to lunarism more or less peacefully. Some tarshites did after the appearance of Hon-Eel at Heruvernalda, and Imther joined the Empire voluntarily, to name some exemples. Of course they didn't just convert all by the grace of the Goddess, there were more factors, and some of them violent, involved, but they still joined the lunar sphere peacefully, so I would not discard that if the Quvini were mass converted before the Empire arrived at DP they would willingly join it. 

But of course violence will happen anyway, because as we can tell by tarshite-written texts on KoS, there was a noticeable resentment in the provinces against Dara Happan monopoly of power. This is of course an inevitable consequence of the State, but maybe a strong and lunar quivinland would tip the scale towards the provincials, and a civil war between them and the Heartlands could ensue. 

 

[EricW]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

Ignore them Brother Erikwal. Preach in the cities to the literate, the educated, the well-traveled, and the curious. To those who chafe against the life of sheep and wheat. To those who need answers more than just what the Air and the Earth have always provided. The Issaries traders and Lhankor Mhy scribes are not our enemies or foes - aid them, show them that we give material support and spiritual relief. 

But Brother Jeff - in Orlanth is Dead there was a lot of reaching out. People who lost everything in the winter sometimes turned to Lunar missionaries for relief, so those missionaries were active during the occupation 😉. Lunars providing cheap healing and food parcels for the hungry is an obvious way to win favour with the commoners. All they had to do to receive this aid was listen to a charismatic priest urging them to accept the chaos moon as their guide.

Edited December 23, 2020 by EricW

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

This thread and it’s answers have made me wonder, how would a lunar-orlanthi sartar be? Would they be followers of the white moon? Would they worship both sedenya and orlanth? The only thing i feel sure of is that they would still fight against the lunar empire, kind of like if america became communist in the 30s would still probably fight the soviet union later on

This is extremely contingent on when the Quivini/Sartar are converting. Obviously, Quivini who convert before Sartar arrives will look very different than a conversion in the first few Princes' reigns, but a pre-Grizzly Peak conversion has a very different aftermath than 1602-1613 (and then 1613-1625) looked like historically. 

The White Moon and its eschatological/apocalyptic elements thus far seems to be primarily a Heartlands phenomenon. So it seems more likely that Sartarite dissidence would take a form more like Talastar's efforts at accommodating both Sedenya and Orlanth, or perhaps the Arrolian city-states. Depending on whether the title "Prince" implies anything about Sartar's own enthronement rites, one area that might be pacifying is the possibility of sidestepping the need for Orlanth Rex kingship to maintain Sartar legitimacy, though with Temertain that was rather a failure. 

And of course, Belintar is going to be taking a very strong interest in preventing direct contact between his borders and those of the Lunar Empire (and thanks to those ever-revolting Volsaxi, that was true right up until his dismemberment) and this in turn could well force the formation of a Lunarized state on its own terms, rather than on imperial ones. 

[EricW]

10 minutes ago, Eff said:

This is extremely contingent on when the Quivini/Sartar are converting. Obviously, Quivini who convert before Sartar arrives will look very different than a conversion in the first few Princes' reigns, but a pre-Grizzly Peak conversion has a very different aftermath than 1602-1613 (and then 1613-1625) looked like historically. 

The White Moon and its eschatological/apocalyptic elements thus far seems to be primarily a Heartlands phenomenon. So it seems more likely that Sartarite dissidence would take a form more like Talastar's efforts at accommodating both Sedenya and Orlanth, or perhaps the Arrolian city-states. Depending on whether the title "Prince" implies anything about Sartar's own enthronement rites, one area that might be pacifying is the possibility of sidestepping the need for Orlanth Rex kingship to maintain Sartar legitimacy, though with Temertain that was rather a failure. 

And of course, Belintar is going to be taking a very strong interest in preventing direct contact between his borders and those of the Lunar Empire (and thanks to those ever-revolting Volsaxi, that was true right up until his dismemberment) and this in turn could well force the formation of a Lunarized state on its own terms, rather than on imperial ones. 

I think a lot of people focus on the military strength of the empire, but overlook their power to seduce the minds and hearts of people who live at the fringes of their influence.

Their magic is redoubled once per week, plus the "lunar way" offers an easy path to mastery of a wide range of magics. Their missionaries are well funded. They keep the chaos hidden - except occasionally when some "obstacle" to progress needs to suffer an unfortunate accident in the dark of the night. They offer education for the children, and food for the poor. 

I suspect to anyone unacquainted with the dark side of the cult, whose only impression is the benign face the Lunars present to the outside world, the Lunars would look gentle and civilised. 

And if you are unhappy that following their way your magics weaken every time the moon wanes, they're happy to teach you about their version of illumination, which will partly free you from this curse. And in time they will discuss the benefits of building a reaching moon temple, to ensure your new Lunar magics are always at full strength.

Edited December 23, 2020 by EricW

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, EricW said:

I think a lot of people focus on the military strength of the empire, but overlook their power to seduce the minds and hearts of people who live at the fringes of their influence.

Their magic is redoubled once per week, plus the "lunar way" offers an easy path to mastery of a wide range of magics. Their missionaries are well funded. They keep the chaos hidden - except occasionally when some "obstacle" to progress needs to suffer an unfortunate accident in the dark of the night. They offer education for the children, and food for the poor. 

I suspect to anyone unacquainted with the dark side of the cult, whose only impression is the benign face the Lunars present to the outside world, the Lunars would look gentle and civilised. 

And if you are unhappy that following their way your magics weaken every time the moon wanes, they're happy to teach you about their version of illumination, which will partly free you from this curse. And in time they will discuss the benefits of building a reaching moon temple, to ensure your new Lunar magics are always at full strength.

I actually think the Lunar Empire is fairly weak in "conventional" military terms, and the question of how to respond to this weakness is ultimately what the dispute between Fazzur and Tatius was all about- do you deal with the fragility of the Native Furthest Corps by playing divide-and-conquer and building local alliances, or do you deal with said fragility via overwhelming magical might? In the event, both lost. 

[Jape_Vicho]

2 minutes ago, EricW said:

And if you are unhappy that following their way your magics weaken every time the moon wanes, they're happy to teach you about their version of illumination, which will partly free you from this curse. And in time they will discuss the benefits of building a reaching moon temple, to ensure your new Lunar magics are always at full strength.

Doesn't the glowline actually make lunar magic always at half strength? Or is this just in game terms? I always took it as one of the "sins" of the empire that the white moonies would like to undo. Sedenya rises and wanes, that is their nature, and until the world is purified and the glorious white moon rises, trying to tie it up is going against it's very plan, and denotes yelmist objectives. Thus a true believer should rejoice and experience the rise and the wane to attain synergy with the Goddess. That's how I imagined it.

[Eff]

7 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Doesn't the glowline actually make lunar magic always at half strength? Or is this just in game terms? I always took it as one of the "sins" of the empire that the white moonies would like to undo. Sedenya rises and wanes, that is their nature, and until the world is purified and the glorious white moon rises, trying to tie it up is going against it's very plan, and denotes yelmist objectives. Thus a true believer should rejoice and experience the rise and the wane to attain synergy with the Goddess. That's how I imagined it.

It does, but it also expands, contracts, and sometimes stops existing for periods. The waxing and waning of the phases moves from time into space. (It also, if I read the Guide right, smooths out the pillars of Lunar magic that exist in Glamour and Torang, which before the Reaching Moon were always Full.) I think you can argue that the Glowline and Reaching Moon are impedances to spiritual development in that they contradict the teaching of the Seven Phases that Sedenya delivers to us every week, but at the same time they have a straightforward secular purpose, like the Red Emperor maintaining all the Dara Happan frippery. I think White Moonies would argue against the Reaching Moon, but that that's part of why they're a fringe movement and not so mainstream they have to be accepted. 

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Doesn't the glowline actually make lunar magic always at half strength?

Inside the Glowline all lunar magic works just like all other magic. No penalties, normal duration. See RQG 303.

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This was, of course, the approach Nysalor took in Ralios in the First Age, though in that case it was providing healing from spirits of disease.

Oh boy, repeating the errors of the First Age, what could go wrong?

It's fine, because we can see what went wrong and how to fix it. We can do it a lot better now.