City temple influence on tribes?

[Scorus]

Queen Leika is pulling together support for a run for the Princedom after Kallyr's untimely demise. In addition to seeking the endorsement of the recently freed spirit of Queen Orgorvale Summer, she is in possession of an Orlanthi artifact that the High Priest of the Jonstown Orlanthi Temple is highly covetous of. Should she award his temple of this artifact in return for his support, how much pull would he have on the Jonstown tribes? I assume the Malani would rather lose body parts than support the Colymar Queen, but could he win her the support of the others? Or do the clan chiefs influence him more than the other way around?

Edited December 31, 2020 by Scorus

[metcalph]

The High Priest of the Jonstown Orlanthi would be the City Mayor, I'ld think.  Given how troubled the political landscape in Sartar, I doubt this mayor has any political power by itself but instead was thrust onto Jonstown by the last warlord that marched through its walls (ie Leika).  

[Jeff]

Leika is going to need to find some other way to lead the tribes around the Quivin Mountains than as "Prince of Sartar". And that is a huge problem. She has no tie to the royal house - and has few close ties by blood or marriage to the other tribes. So she is not going to be "Sartar Rex" - the head of the Sartar cult and tender of the flame, because she is not a descendant of Sartar. The Colymar are largely autonomous from the other tribes - they aren't tied into a city and are deeply mistrusted by the Malani, Lismelder, and Locaem tribes.

So she has her work cut out for her.

[Jeff]

The Prince's representative in the city is the City Rex ("mayor"). The first City Rex was Wilms, who was appointed by Sartar himself with the approval of the tribes. Traditionally, a Prince would appoint a friend or companion (with the approval of the City Ring). The City Rex would be the Prince's proxy - he or she would lead the militia, lead the Ring, and collect taxes and tolls for the Prince. 

Under the Lunar Occupation the city assembly was allowed to pick their own Rex, subject to Lunar approval. The Rex and City Ring were stripped of most substantive powers (those powers were delegated to Lunar appointed administrators), and if anyone disappointed the Lunar Occupation, they could just be killed. 

Kallyr tried to revive the old system, appointing a new Rex in Jonstown (Orngerin). When he died in the LBQ, the City Ring chose Joh Mith, who was approved by Kallyr (she had bigger problems and couldn't afford a fight as her personal rule was in a crisis). 

[Scorus]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Colymar are largely autonomous from the other tribes - they aren't tied into a city and are deeply mistrusted by the Malani, Lismelder, and Locaem tribes.

So she has her work cut out for her.

Exactly, that is why she is working extra hard. I gather that the head of the Jonstown Orlanth temple wouldn't have much pull on the tribes, then? How about an endorsement from Orgorvale?

Lismelder on that list surprises me a bit. Is this just the Greydog-Orlmarth feud? I would think that the Narri, Enhyli, Arnoring and Ernaldoring would have to have good relationships with Lismelder for trade purposes since the roads and rivers all pass through their territory. And Narri and Enhyli share responsibilities for defending against the Upland Marsh with the northern Lismelder. Plus they share an enemy in the Malani.

And while I've got you, which of Kallyr's companions died in the LBQ?

[Jeff]

40 minutes ago, Scorus said:

Exactly, that is why she is working extra hard. I gather that the head of the Jonstown Orlanth temple wouldn't have much pull on the tribes, then? How about an endorsement from Orgorvale?

Lismelder on that list surprises me a bit. Is this just the Greydog-Orlmarth feud? I would think that the Narri, Enhyli, Arnoring and Ernaldoring would have to have good relationships with Lismelder for trade purposes since the roads and rivers all pass through their territory. And Narri and Enhyli share responsibilities for defending against the Upland Marsh with the northern Lismelder. Plus they share an enemy in the Malani.

And while I've got you, which of Kallyr's companions died in the LBQ?

Watch the White Bull campaign on the Chaosium YouTube channel and you can get a feel for how bad that went!

[Darius West]

On 1/1/2021 at 7:17 AM, Scorus said:

Queen Leika is pulling together support for a run for the Princedom after Kallyr's untimely demise. In addition to seeking the endorsement of the recently freed spirit of Queen Orgorvale Summer, she is in possession of an Orlanthi artifact that the High Priest of the Jonstown Orlanthi Temple is highly covetous of. Should she award his temple of this artifact in return for his support, how much pull would he have on the Jonstown tribes? I assume the Malani would rather lose body parts than support the Colymar Queen, but could he win her the support of the others? Or do the clan chiefs influence him more than the other way around?

My interpretation of the situation is this (take it or leave it). YGMV, but official history suggests that Leika fails in her bid.  Sartarite Tribal Kings are (of necessity) a pragmatic lot and will have no problem horse trading political favors even with their enemies as needs must.  The fact is that the Orlanth temple of Jonstown is not the true political powerhouse of the city; that is the Lhankor Mhy Temple.  Jonstown is run, not by Tribal Kings, but by a Guild Ring, and many of those Guilds are tied in worship, not to Orlanth, but to Lhankor Mhy who run what is effectively Startar's great University city.  Lhankor Mhy is a patron deity to many guilds such as the scribes, the bookbinders, the alchemists etc, all of which are over-represented in Jonstown, due to the need to service a very important center of learning.  I would suggest that even if Leika traded the artifact, and even given the rise in the importance of Orlanth given the situation in 1625 Sartar (war).  The Malani would likely weigh the value of the artifact against the likelihood of Leika's bid succeeding and agree to support her to get cash and prizes while undermining her politically on other fronts, wasting her time in a political holding action and throwing their ultimate support ultimately behind another candidate (Argrath?).  

[Stephen L]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

Watch the White Bull campaign on the Chaosium YouTube channel

Anyone with any idea which episode I'm after, please? 

Thanks.

[Joerg]

I am wondering whether the City Rex proxies of a prince can use Orlanth Rex magics like Summon Followers for the city muster.

Did any of the three tribal confederation mayors/C. Rexes survive the Dragonkill? How did Kallyr get to appoint Orngerin in Jonstown?

 

Boldhome should have its own head magistrate, who may share the same job title as those of the three tribal confederation cities, but that worthy has "only" the citizens of his city under his legislative. (That number is still higher than the Alone confederation...) The capital ought to be able to muster two militias, though (one foot one horse), as warriors may be somewhat over-represented in the capital city.

Duck Point used have something like a mayor, Polgo Hoarfoot, but the city only really has durulz under its authority. In 1613, the durulz were represented by a shaman rather than that noteworthy, but then there was only one mayor on the High Council, from Wilmskirk. Garastal Flatnose, mayor of Wilmskirk, did have the vote of confidence from his urban population at Sartar High Council 1613, but little support from the four tribes of the confederation. Sartar Kingdom of Heroes gives us Polgo for Duck Point prior to 1613. Sartar Companion names Lyserian Goodspeech as mayor of Jonstown. What happened to this worthy?

 

[Akhôrahil]

Could one method for at least trying to rule without the correct bloodline be to do the Gondor thing, and rule in the place of the Rightful King (may the day of his return soon arrive!). You would have to do without the magical goodies, but it would at least make for a legal fiction.

(And then the Rightful King does show up, and he’s some scruffy adventurer...)

[Scorus]

I  have no intention to make the rule of Sartar necessarily hereditary! Nobody even knows who Sartar descended from but we are going to limit ourselves to those descended from him, the process that gave us the reigns of Temertain and Kallyr? I don't think so. Sartar's rule was so transformative that I can totally see his children following in his footsteps, especially since some of them were quite successful. But the notion that only the next distant relation can rule doesn't seem to be one that the relatively pragmatic tribes of Sartar would universally embrace.

The Argrath will reach the pinaccle based on their successes militarily and politically. I don't expect Leika to become the Argrath, but after taking command and winning the Battle of the Queens against the Lunars after Kallyr's death seems like it would give her some momentum with those tribes that are not already opposed to Colymar.

[Jeff]

You all are welcome to do what you want with your Glorantha in your games, etc. But in forthcoming publications and licensed material, the rulers of Sartar are well-defined. And it is assumed there is a single leader named Argrath, assisted by many companions and friends, who led Sartar in the Hero Wars, just as there was a single leader named Alexander who, assisted by many companions and friends, led Macedon in the conquest of the Persian Empire.

[Scorus]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

You all are welcome to do what you want with your Glorantha in your games, etc. But in forthcoming publications and licensed material, the rulers of Sartar are well-defined. And it is assumed there is a single leader named Argrath, assisted by many companions and friends, who led Sartar in the Hero Wars, just as there was a single leader named Alexander who, assisted by many companions and friends, led Macedon in the conquest of the Persian Empire.

Understood, but in my opinion the dictation of the future is a flaw of RQG. It is great for non-game publications such as King of Sartar and The Guide to Glorantha, but IMO an RPG is about letting the players impact and even decide the flow of future history in their game. A better strategy would be to define the world in 1625, seed it with multiple development possibilities, and set the GM and players loose on the world with no one walking around with a ruler for when they speak out against "canon". I am great with saying "there was a single leader named" but I think the impact on an RPG of changing that to the future tense is a negative one. Just my opinion.

[Nick Brooke]

Mate, Glorantha existed before RuneQuest; the first thing ever published about Glorantha told us that Prince Argrath of Sartar fought against the Lunar Empire in the Hero Wars. Sure, you can ditch that and do whatever the hell you want with the setting -- lots of people do. But goddamn, this is a weird hill to choose to die on.

 

[Stephen L]

On 1/2/2021 at 8:54 AM, Darius West said:

many of those Guilds are tied in worship, not to Orlanth, but to Lhankor Mhy who run what is effectively Startar's great University city

Agreed, but I quite like the idea that there is tension between town and temple.  I’m thinking of the troubled relationship between town and University that Oxford had historically (for example the Scholastica riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Scholastica_Day_riot), providing maximum Roleplay opportunity…

[Eff]

In order to be able to write an alternate version of the Hero Wars where Prince Argrath was really three ducks in a trenchcoat, or darker and edgier undead Kallyr, or five different people, it's helpful to have something to deviate from. Saying "the game starts by default in 1625. In 1626, Kallyr dies at the Battle of the Queens and Leika burns her body" is, to my mind, a challenge: can you save Prince Kallyr by speedrunning your way to Hero status? 

[Stephen L]

1 hour ago, Scorus said:

but in my opinion the dictation of the future is a flaw of RQG

I vote the opposite. 

I really like the whole Pendragon approach of the The Great Pendragon Campaign, providing a framework of the great events unfolding around the players.  I never found this approach constraining rather the opposite, it was quite liberating.  Having a framework to work with really helped get the creative juices going, and made it easier to change things, because I could see the consequences of those changes.

As a small example, I'm finding Vasana's saga really useful, because my PCs are *ideal* for the Vasana role.  So that's the current story arc of my campaign, though it's unlikely it will play out as I envision.

[Akhôrahil]

33 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

I really like the whole Pendragon approach of the The Great Pendragon Campaign, providing a framework of the great events unfolding around the players.

It helps a lot that for much of the campaign, Arthur doesn't do too much - he lets his knights do all the questing while acting as their support system. 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Stephen L said:

I really like the whole Pendragon approach of the The Great Pendragon Campaign, providing a framework of the great events unfolding around the players.  I never found this approach constraining rather the opposite, it was quite liberating.  Having a framework to work with really helped get the creative juices going, and made it easier to change things, because I could see the consequences of those changes.

I agree, a framework helps most GM's as they can see how events may develop and unfold (and allows them to draw further on works like King of Sartar) - otherwise, they are just as likely to be intimidated by the setting and the unknown future.  And if your characters want to play in the high-level politics (Glorantha: Game of Thrones), you can put them right into the midst of it.

It also means that you can start a campaign later in the Hero Wars.  Want to see what happens in Saird in the 1630's?  Start then.  Battle against Sheng Seleris?  What tools do you need to do so?  Try to stop the Great Flood?  You can build up a whole background around it.  Etc.

And if you really want to go it alone, play the post-Apocalypse, Twilight of the Gods era.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It helps a lot that for much of the campaign, Arthur doesn't do too much - he lets his knights do all the questing while acting as their support system.

And it wouldn't surprise me if we get Argrath sitting back letting his thanes and allies do all the heavy lifting and bold questing.  That seems to be the approach I've heard for Argrath in Pavis.  

 

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And it wouldn't surprise me if we get Argrath sitting back letting his thanes and allies do all the heavy lifting and bold questing.  That seems to be the approach I've heard for Argrath in Pavis.  

King of Sartar depicts him as essentially doing everything, himself, personally.

But then it would, wouldn’t it?

[FungusColombicus]

On 1/2/2021 at 6:22 AM, Stephen L said:

Anyone with any idea which episode I'm after, please? 

Thanks.

go for chapters 24 and particularly 25...

QUITE INTERESTING !!!

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

King of Sartar depicts him as essentially doing everything, himself, personally.

But then it would, wouldn’t it?

It certainly does, and would!  And I'm sure that the Harreksaga depicts Harrek doing everything.  And Lunar chronicles depict Jar-eel doing everything.  It's up to us to fill in the Many Truths!

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, FungusColombicus said:

go for chapters 24 and particularly 25...

QUITE INTERESTING !!!

I'm way back around episode 8!  Guess I'll have to try to catch up - too bad there aren't transcripts.

[FungusColombicus]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

It's up to us to fill in the Many Truths!

or erase from history the lies and misgivings (wink)

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Try to stop the Great Flood? 

Might I recommend The Quacken for those who might be so interested...