Notes on the Lunar Empire

[Nick Brooke]

Just now, scott-martin said:

And now of course he's gone (died screaming)

You’re telling me you’ve seen the body, huh?

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

You’re telling me you’ve seen the body, huh?

I would not rule out a miraculous and horrifying escape / return once his rivals get a chance to establish themselves! He might be a little weirder for wear of course.

Edited July 8, 2021 by scott-martin
"the Gandalf upgrade" noted here

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is all Great Gloranthan Fun. 

If I were advocating solar revival movements I'd probably start with a deep look at what Tatius believed and the religious orthodoxy he tried to promote at the College and within the broader imperial elites. A magician on that level always has an agenda and a trajectory . . . it's worth seeing how he helped create what we consider "the lunar way" going into the terminal Seventh Wane as well as the ways he diverged from the mainstream around him.

And now of course he's gone (died screaming) and the Assiday are not well equipped to carry on in his sudden unplanned absence. Time for other suns to grab for the spear standard if any sun wants to step up at all. Good times!

There is a Celestial revival movement, always threatening in the background. As we all know, the Celestial Emperor, the source of Sunbursts and Rising Lights, Lord of the Surface World, et al, is in the Underworld like Dead Yelm, waiting for his enemies to repent and return him to the world.

And that's what is waiting in the wings. Get rid of the Red Emperor and that is what you get.

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

that's what is waiting in the wings

The Bright dropped that bomb on us himself at convocation one year. All the best minds in the empire in one room plus myself and he goes off script raving about the Shadow Within. Absolutely terrifying. Made a huge impression. We straightened up and flew right for an appreciable period thereafter.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

There is a Celestial revival movement, always threatening in the background. As we all know, the Celestial Emperor, the source of Sunbursts and Rising Lights, Lord of the Surface World, et al, is in the Underworld like Dead Yelm, waiting for his enemies to repent and return him to the world.

And that's what is waiting in the wings. Get rid of the Red Emperor and that is what you get.

And that is exactly what was going to happen in our last campaign, before it ended.

Hundreds of Pentian HeroQuestors performed Yelm Seeks Justice, but as Sheng Seleris, to force Orlanthi HeroQuestors to try to rescue Sheng Seleris. However, the campaign finished before anyone could bring him back.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I would not rule out a miraculous and horrifying escape / return once his rivals get a chance to establish themselves! He might be a little weirder for wear of course.

I'd Vader the bastard. He's had the breathing problems ever since the Windstop, the burn scars since the Pennel Ford blowback, and I guess some limb replacements become necessary after his Dragonrise accident. What's happening in my own weird variant account (YGWV) looks like a mystical race between Tatius and Sheng to be in pole position for Maggot-Liege Ascendancy.

[Nick Brooke]

1 minute ago, Nick Brooke said:

Maggot-Liege Ascendancy.

aka "Waiting to follow the Worms."

EDITOR: "sp. - Wyrms?"

Tie this in to Termain Osboropo for ultimate Snakepiper at the Gates of Dawn cred. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Nick Brooke

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We played Lunar characters many many years.  None of the human earthly players really believed all the stuff about the Red Emperor being the True Dara Happan Emperor, that every enemy God "just happened" to be "proven" to be the same as some aspect of the Goddess, etc...  But the characters didn't play that way: many were "true believers" in the Lunar Way, others focused on obeying the laws, avoiding The Bat, and ignored the religious intricacies.

We are now playing Sartarites in 1627.  All the human earthly players know that Argrath is abusing the dangerous powers of Illumination, "cheating" to defeat the Lunars (who themselves cheat).  And things will end badly.  But the characters, for now at least, have to act as if they don't know that.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

If I were advocating solar revival movements I'd probably start with a deep look at what Tatius believed

That's an interesting question.

Tatius has been described as a Yelmite, a Lunar, an Illuminate, and a Chaotic, and of course these aren't mutually exclusive.

A core belief seems to have been that Orlanth needed to be eradicated and the people in Dragon Pass needed punishing.

Another core belief appears to have been that the interest of the family was at least as important as the interest of the Empire (to understate his priorities). Like calling back Fazzur even though taking Karse and/or Heortland was at least possible..

 

The Assiday evidently value their ancient Yuthuppan ancestry. They appear to have been a top tier family since the ascendance of Khordavu, and probably managed to remain so under the Spolites, the EWF dragon emperor, the Carmanian occupation, Jannisor's Rebellion, and Dara Happa on Horse. Jeff assured us that they can trace some of their lineage to the Red Emperor, at least through one such marriage to a daughter or granddaughter of Moonson. Probably several.

They appear to be innovative magicians, or at least to have plenty innovative magicians working for them for the development of this new type of Reaching Moon temple. Even Euglyptus must have had a non-catastrophic track record as administrator back in the Heartlands to have become eligible as the Governor General of newly conquered Sartar. Or otherwise a significant amount of bribes must have outbid any other practitioner of venality or Simony.

Euglyptus probably had to pull a Varus to recover the investment into his investiture, after his bid for plunder from Nochet and the Holy County failed. (The historian Velleius Paterculus alleges that above all Varus ruthlessly became rich at the expense of the wealthy province Syria. He writes: »As a poor man he came to the rich Syria and as a rich man he left the poor Syria.« source)

 

It has been stated that Tatius bid for the New Lunar Temple in Sartar has the Assiday assets riding on that project, which probably means that whoever inherits the top position in that family after the Dragonrise is going to be in a lot of debt and might have to sell off family left and right into well-paying but demeaning marriages. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of ziggurats or astronomical towers needs to be sold off...

 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

the Orangemen in Ireland profess to pursue regulations almost as long ago as the Thirty Years War

the orangemen have an empire propping them up

[Eff]

Some momentary thoughts on Tatius, the Assiday, and just what the hell was up with that garishly oversized Reaching Moon Temple...

-The location of the Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon was chosen very specifically for geomantic purposes.

-The Brown Dragon is associated with the powers of Storm and with Orlanth.

-The explicit purpose of the Temple of the Reaching Moon was to pacify Sartar and environs.

-The Temples of the Reaching Moon anchor the Glowline- you could perhaps analogize them to a spike or tent peg, embedded deep in the Earth and providing a place for Yara Aranis to spin her webs.

-The Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon was of unusual size and involved unusual amounts of effort.

-And of course, good old Tatius the Bright does have a fondness for the Sunspear, of a bolt from Heaven impaling* and incinerating the impure foe.

We can perhaps draw analogies to the long-standing efforts by Pelorians to get those rambunctious rivers/dragons to stay in their banks and not flood, except that of course, trying to nail water to anything is obviously futile. And although it seems a bit of a stretch, the center of the Reaching Moon Temple was at the head of the Brown Dragon. Though the jaws opened up to swallow the place, it's not all that far from the jaws to the cranium, and from the cranium to the anterior lobes of the prefrontal cortex. But surely no one would be, ah, so blinded by the light as to think that psychosurgery of such a crude and literal form would be a practical way of handling your god problem?


*I suppose there may well be some psychoanalytical fruit here, or else an extended riff on the second act of the 1970s The Wicker Man...

Edited July 9, 2021 by Eff

[scott-martin]

11 hours ago, Eff said:

some psychoanalytical fruit

"Trees there will be
Apples, fruits maybe"

I like rooting Tatius' Mistake onto the return of his own rejected bicameral mind. The thing for me about all these really Hero Wars class magicians is how they resolve one another's errors . . . dynamic tension must be hard work.

Thinking now that the catechisms distributed through 7M in the terminal 7W would either reflect Assiday prejudices or actively resist them. It all depends on the kind of manager Tatius is IYG. For me, right now, I like him as a kind of obsessively detail-driven Jonathan Pryce character so the College has been controlling entry-level religious publishing for at least a generation, thanks to the cooperation of our friends within IO and of course the stargazers etc. 

Meanwhile the Assidays jointly (at least officially, Euglyptus' level of incompetence is probably YGWV MGF) controlled the southern military presence early on and despite the Fazzurite interruption were back in charge until recently. Add it up and the information about the lunar way and its relationship to the solar pantheon Sartarites receive in the occupation era will probably be colored by what the Assidays want them to learn. And the Glorantha publishing has reflected that bias because in Sartar these were the facts on the ground.

This is important because Tatius seems to have had a distinct theological sickle to swing around the proper relationship of storm and sun to moon in the new world he was building . . . but the empire at large undoubtedly had other ideas. I love the thought of his heirs having to sell off the towers to rival astronomers who now have an opening to disseminate different lore and an elevated platform on which to do it.

[AndreJarosch]

12 hours ago, Eff said:

Some momentary thoughts on Tatius, the Assiday, and just what the hell was up with that garishly oversized Reaching Moon Temple...

-The location of the Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon was chosen very specifically for geomantic purposes.

-The explicit purpose of the Temple of the Reaching Moon was to pacify Sartar and environs.

-The Temples of the Reaching Moon anchor the Glowline- you could perhaps analogize them to a spike or tent peg, embedded deep in the Earth and providing a place for Yara Aranis to spin her webs.

-The Sartar Temple of the Reaching Moon was of unusual size and involved unusual amounts of effort.

Hmmm... Do we know what radius the glowline around the new Temple of the Reaching Moon would have had?
Would have it covered the whole area the Windstop occured? Or is that to much, and the radius was about half the size?

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Meanwhile the Assidays jointly (at least officially, Euglyptus' level of incompetence is probably YGWV MGF) controlled the southern military presence early on and despite the Fazzurite interruption were back in charge until recently. Add it up and the information about the lunar way and its relationship to the solar pantheon Sartarites receive in the occupation era will probably be colored by what the Assidays want them to learn. And the Glorantha publishing has reflected that bias because in Sartar these were the facts on the ground.

However, it's useful to look at the significant rivals/leaders to the Assidays and their positions in regards to Dragon Pass.

Eel-ariash:  Hon-eel founded the Tarsh dynasty.  Phargentes I was grandson of Hon-eel, and reinstated with Red Emperor aid.  Phargestes I was also the first Lunar Provincial Admin.  Moirades was gt-grandson, and married both FHQ and Jar-eel (as well as Fazzur's sister).  Pharandos has a LOT of Eel-ariash connections.  While Pharandos seems not to be close to his Uncle Fazzur, it's noticeable that he's NOT at the Dragon Rise. 

Appius Luxius:  he's a rising power in the Southern Provinces.  (I believe he's a son of the Red Emperor, busy on establishing his own dynasty at Mirin's Cross.).  He's also in position to weave a coalition of provinces centered on Holay as a counter to Tarsh (and the Red Emperor likely set him up as a balancing element after Phargentes I's death).  Notably he is at the Dragon Rise, and does die there.  I think he was likely instrumental in working with the Assidays, and their plans.

Errio-Unit:  seem to mostly focus on Sylila with marriage arrangements into, I believe, Vanch and Imther, and quite likely Talastar.  Likely a significant counter to Appius Luxius across the southern provinces, and an obvious rival to the Eel-ariash.  They seem well positioned in the early 1630's, so likely not tied into the Assidays fall.

 

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Eel-ariash

Tarsh, Oraya & Oronin, unified through Hon-eel's dynasty. That's a powerful combination of different takes on the Lunar Way, all cross-pollinating in the body of the Empire and the leading minds of the Clan - and let's not forget it was the Eels and not the Assidays that brought forth what they generously called the Fourth Inspiration of Moonson.

[Eff]

25 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Tarsh, Oraya & Oronin, unified through Hon-eel's dynasty. That's a powerful combination of different takes on the Lunar Way, all cross-pollinating in the body of the Empire and the leading minds of the Clan - and let's not forget it was the Eels and not the Assidays that brought forth what they generously called the Fourth Inspiration of Moonson.

And with that in mind, the first "deployment" of Jar-eel involves reopening contact with Arrolia, yet another set of takes on the Lunar Way brought back into contact. 

[Nick Brooke]

Two very different approaches. The Assidays controlling and defining the Truth from the centre, while the Eels go searching for it in overlooked and unfamiliar places.

I'm sure the Eels would have backed studying Moonbroth, while the Assidays stayed well away from that loose (water)cannon.

[jajagappa]

59 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

and let's not forget it was the Eels and not the Assidays that brought forth what they generously called the Fourth Inspiration of Moonson.

Do the Assidays (and Tatius) direct their attention southward in response to the birth of Jar-eel?  Or is the incident in 1599 when "the Red Emperor assembled his whole court at the top and foot of the Footstool in Raibanth. He addressed them all, urging them to find the traitors among them who would scandalize the office of Emperor..." actually the action of Tatius the Bright?

We know Militaris was "pleased" by the Yanariao-ilart's triumph over the Eel-ariarsh in 1575 (GS p.183).  That Militaris also turned his attention southward against Tarkalor might suggest Assiday support against the Rebel God.

Did the Assidays support or drive the effort for the Kalikos expedition (perhaps as a counter to the Legion of Infants going to the Arrolian lands)?

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

However, it's useful to look at the significant rivals/leaders to the Assidays and their positions in regards to Dragon Pass.

Eel-ariash:  Hon-eel founded the Tarsh dynasty.  Phargentes I was grandson of Hon-eel, and reinstated with Red Emperor aid.  Phargestes I was also the first Lunar Provincial Admin.  Moirades was gt-grandson, and married both FHQ and Jar-eel (as well as Fazzur's sister).  Pharandos has a LOT of Eel-ariash connections.  While Pharandos seems not to be close to his Uncle Fazzur, it's noticeable that he's NOT at the Dragon Rise. 

It doesn't seem like the Eel-ariash have that many allies in the Heartlands. They lost their original satrapy of Doblian, and while Jar-eel is a crowning example of Bene-Gesserit style breeding, she has gone far beyond what lowly and mundane concerns her maternal family may have. Still, they are on the good side of Jar-eel, and that means they have some leeway in their machinations.es 

Other than Doblian, they have managed to keep a strong hand in wherever Hon-eel achieved great things, and they might have some esoteric allies among the lesser Silver Shadow families. They seem to have taken on the task to educate young Phargentes, though.

The Eel-ariash apparently follow a course of inclusion rather than separation on the outskirts of the Empire. Sor-eel did a fairly good job in Prax and Pavis up to the Cradle episode, despite allies and followers like the Sable Khan or Gimgim. Tarsh has become an exemplary Lunar province, managing its own Temple of the Reaching Moon and aspiring to renew its dominion over all of Deagon Pass, and beyond.

I am not sure how much the animosity between Pharandros and his uncle Fazzur was provoked by agents of the Lunar College of Magic. Tatius has no sympathy at all for that Barbarian cavalry commander who so openly publicized Euglyptus' (and his handlers') shortcomings while coming out of everything ahiny and sqeaky clean, at least until the Blinder's mishap with the Bat. Fazzur's economic use of mostly provincial forces and some Heartland cavalry demonstrates his understanding of the opposition, and without Tatius sabotaging him he might have become the ruler of the CIty of Wonders.

Pharandros desires the Greater Tarsh of Yaradros and the provincial clout of Phargentes. Expanding beyond Karse is fair enough to secure his southern flank, but he really would love to gain a permanent hold on Holay, with the rest of the Provinces to follow.

(All IMO and IMG, nothing remotely official beyond what's in the Guide)

 

Minor quibble: while Moirades certainly and epicly bedded Jar-eel, I don't see any evidence for a formal marriage there. At their mutual stages of enlightenment, what would have been the point?

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Appius Luxius:  he's a rising power in the Southern Provinces.  (I believe he's a son of the Red Emperor, busy on establishing his own dynasty at Mirin's Cross.).  He's also in position to weave a coalition of provinces centered on Holay as a counter to Tarsh (and the Red Emperor likely set him up as a balancing element after Phargentes I's death).  Notably he is at the Dragon Rise, and does die there.  I think he was likely instrumental in working with the Assidays, and their plans.

I agree. Mirin's Cross and Furthest are rivals for the lead in Provincial excellence, each with their own university breeding new blends of hill barbarian and Lunar magics. Mirin's Cross might be stronger in Lightfore aspects, while Tarsh has a stronger Earth affinity, especially Dark Earth.

 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Errio-Unit:  seem to mostly focus on Sylila with marriage arrangements into, I believe, Vanch and Imther, and quite likely Talastar.  Likely a significant counter to Appius Luxius across the southern provinces, and an obvious rival to the Eel-ariash.  They seem well positioned in the early 1630's, so likely not tied into the Assidays fall.

It is possible that they are on friendly terms with Fazzur, too.

They came to power in Sylila only after the Hwarin-ony had been destroyed in a dart competition and their successors had fallen afoul of Tax Demons. I wonder whether they were among the hosts of Philigos, Phargentes and Vostor Blacktooth atter Palashee's rebellion. Phargentes may have paid them back through his support to take over Sylila.

When and from which mask's progeny would the Errio-unit have received their injection of Moonson's blood?

 

I wonder how much it matters which mask of Moonson left offspring in one of the big Lunar families. Takenegi and Magnificus might be rather neutral, Glamour-oriented daddies, but I suspect the later masks to have been leaning to certain factions in the Empire.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Do the Assidays (and Tatius) direct their attention southward in response to the birth of Jar-eel?  Or is the incident in 1599 when "the Red Emperor assembled his whole court at the top and foot of the Footstool in Raibanth. He addressed them all, urging them to find the traitors among them who would scandalize the office of Emperor..." actually the action of Tatius the Bright?

We know Militaris was "pleased" by the Yanariao-ilart's triumph over the Eel-ariarsh in 1575 (GS p.183).  That Militaris also turned his attention southward against Tarkalor might suggest Assiday support against the Rebel God.

Did the Assidays support or drive the effort for the Kalikos expedition (perhaps as a counter to the Legion of Infants going to the Arrolian lands)?

I think that all Lunar factions with a modicum of awareness of Dragon Pass affairs would have agreed that Tarkalor was bad news for the Empire, even though quite a few may have been relieved when Phargentes failed to become King of Dragon Pass in addition to all his other achievements.

I wouldn't put it past the Assiday to have supported Tarkalor against Phargentes in their contest for the FHQ. Tarkalor would become the model antagonist for the Assiday campaign to punish and destroy the southern barbarians and their god.

From an Imperial College point of view, the Furthest Magical School (not a field unit?) may have been a loose cannon, successfully employing experimental magic not sanctioned by the Imperial College, like the stray moonbeam that caused or at least abetted Terasarin's demise.

I wonder whether the Assiday are the uncontested leaders of the Heartlands First - Make Peloria Great Again movement, though. There are bound to be other Yelmite Revanchist leaders in the Heartlands, possibly with some lingering nomad attachments - possibly through the Char-un - that spearheaded the Kalikos spiel.

[jajagappa]

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It doesn't seem like the Eel-ariash have that many allies in the Heartlands. They lost their original satrapy of Doblian, and while Jar-eel is a crowning example of Bene-Gesserit style breeding, she has gone far beyond what lowly and mundane concerns her maternal family may have. Still, they are on the good side of Jar-eel, and that means they have some leeway in their machinations.es 

The Jar-eel Program seems to be their critical initiative to regain an upper-hand in the Heartlands, both in Silver Shadow and on the Moon.  Her apotheosis cements an Eel-ariash position in the cult of the Red Goddess, and her defeat of the Slave Revolt and formation of the Moonsword Cult gives her a powerful Imperial military unit at the heart of the Empire.

By then, though, Argenteus is on the throne, and seems to let the Assiday and Eel-ariash take their political rivalry elsewhere and away from his pleasures (all carefully manipulated by the Tharkalists). 

An interesting question - is the White Moon Movement supported by the Assiday?  Is Jar-eel's devastation of that tied into an attack upon the Assiday.  Or are there other major players (e.g. the Valar-Telsor or Yanoriao-ilart) who are pushing that to counter the efforts of both Assiday and Eel-ariash?

[scott-martin]

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

is the White Moon Movement supported by the Assiday

What a consistently great thread. 

It probably depends on the tone people want to take in their games. "The New Empire" in FS is really interesting in this light because it's explicitly a White text that aligns the Ignifer era program of Orlanatus suppression with the apocalyptic flavor of the Moon To Come. 

We know Assiday leadership is sympathetic to the first part at least. Biographers can argue over how much of the second part Tatius really believed or just found useful. Realpolitik-heavy games can emphasize the details that suggest that "whitening the moon" is simply a cynical gambit he deployed to advance his agenda in the Argenteus era. People with more of a flair for the mystic can give the old man a real ongoing spiritual crisis in communication with deep sky factions.

Today I lean toward it starting out cynical and getting beyond their control as it evolved. A lot depends on how Argenteus was revealed in the first place and who decided Ignifer had gotten ahead of himself. The White Moon panegyric gets thickest in the Argenteus section, which indicates an inward turn while the apparatus of state runs itself. There's an abyss widening between the public world and the aspirations of the spiritually inclined. 

At a certain stage the spiritually inclined wash their hands of the public world and White Moon becomes a Movement divorced from the imperial work of keeping the moon reaching. You get millenarian (last wane) outbreaks where the kids are. It becomes a problem.

Interestingly because Reaching Sartar was advertised as the way to whiten the moon I think these people are natural scapegoats for the imperial collapse. The top Assidays are dead and Orlanth is alive, so there's nothing we can do about that part. But the Moonies are on the hook and the weird need to turn pro fast.

People probably just need to LARP out the machinations behind the recent masks . . .  or run Pelorian Pendragon, how fun would that be!

 

 

[Joerg]

I don't think that there is any of the established families that supports the White Moon Movement wholeheartedly, but as you say, there will be some to lend the White Moonies some support when it disturbs their rivals.

The White Moon feels like a grass-roots movement, carried by agitators of no other qualification than a whiff of illumination, madness, or both.

How much are they the 1968 parallel?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Jar-Eel is famous debating them, isn't she? So they at least have SOME individual who are highly regarded spiriturally/intellectually, if nothing else. But I agree that it's general modus seems to be that of a grassroots movement. Not that things can't get astroturfed, of course. A push and a pull in the right direction and suddenly your rival family as an uprising in their lands.

[Eff]

Thinking a bit about the map in the White Bear Red Moon manual, with that tantalizing "Heretics Country" out beyond the Redlands... 

Heretics to whom? Who made that map? Are they heretical to Lunars or to Sartarites? Or, given that there are Lunar and Storm powers out in Pent that clearly are viewing the Otherworld a little differently, are they heretics to both? The WBRM/DP scenarios seem to cut off before Phargentes the Younger marches south, and well before Sheng's jailbreak. What's going on with the Red Hair Tribe, as the Hero Wars begin in earnest?