Who is the sartarite sun god right now?

[JonL]

17 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

But also in GS (page 118): "The Elmal cult in Dragon Pass came under tremendous influence from the solar religion of Dara Happa, until Monrogh Lantern revealed their god to be another name for Yelmalio. The Yelmalio cult has now eclipsed the native Elmal cult"

Absolutely. The idea that Monrogh stripped off a majority of the Elmali ( presumably including many who were not disgruntled but were backing Prince Tarkalor's right-hand Elmali on his HeroQuest like a good Loyal Thane should, only to end up dragged along by the revelation) to resettle in Vantar, conquer and enslave the Kitori, and get their Sun Dome on is not new.

What is different in the RQG books is the degree of their success and influence on the culture outside of Vantar. The previous figures we had from the Sartar books told us that there were 3000 Initiate or better Yelmalio cultists in Sartar, compared to 1000 Elmali and another 1000 Redaldans (check out that gender parity!). That's a majority, sure. If most of them are in Sun Dome County though, those proportions would indicate that Elmal+Redalda was still the more common Solar cult in most parts elsewhere. That makes perfect sense, as the ones who embraced Yelmalio quite pointedly packed up and left. 

That's quite a different picture than what is being painted now.

[Eff]

Now, there is one area where the Elmalio-Tharkantirius-Daysenerakargzant hullabaloo has real, if minor issues, and that is in the description of the Orlanthi tribal ring, which still uses Heler and Elmal as examples of the symbolic position of the 6th seat in the most recent version I'm aware of. So the question is, then, is this Sun Disk-Elmal and this is a reference to a cosmological force necessary for fertility directly, and we should read this as Yelm? Or is it Lightfore-Elmal and this seat on the ring is for other members of the Orlanth-Ernalda polycule, and we should read this as Yelmalio? (Note that Voria and minor Thunder Brothers have seats on this ring and they clearly don't have cults, so it genuinely could be a Yelm position filled by a person who has to phrase everything haughtily and wears a big yellow hat.)

I suspect that whatever variation appears in the Sartar book will resolve this, of course, but in the interim it vexes, aggravates, and minorly annoys. I may have to just put Heler on every tribal ring that becomes relevant. 

[Jeff]

33 minutes ago, Eff said:

Now, there is one area where the Elmalio-Tharkantirius-Daysenerakargzant hullabaloo has real, if minor issues, and that is in the description of the Orlanthi tribal ring, which still uses Heler and Elmal as examples of the symbolic position of the 6th seat in the most recent version I'm aware of. So the question is, then, is this Sun Disk-Elmal and this is a reference to a cosmological force necessary for fertility directly, and we should read this as Yelm? Or is it Lightfore-Elmal and this seat on the ring is for other members of the Orlanth-Ernalda polycule, and we should read this as Yelmalio? (Note that Voria and minor Thunder Brothers have seats on this ring and they clearly don't have cults, so it genuinely could be a Yelm position filled by a person who has to phrase everything haughtily and wears a big yellow hat.)

I suspect that whatever variation appears in the Sartar book will resolve this, of course, but in the interim it vexes, aggravates, and minorly annoys. I may have to just put Heler on every tribal ring that becomes relevant. 

Elmal is not a member of the High Thirteen of the tribal ring, nor is Heler. Are you thinking of the Rainmaker position on traditional clan rings? That is normally Orlanth Thunderous, not Heler. 

[Jeff]

36 minutes ago, Eff said:

Now, there is one area where the Elmalio-Tharkantirius-Daysenerakargzant hullabaloo has real, if minor issues, and that is in the description of the Orlanthi tribal ring, which still uses Heler and Elmal as examples of the symbolic position of the 6th seat in the most recent version I'm aware of. So the question is, then, is this Sun Disk-Elmal and this is a reference to a cosmological force necessary for fertility directly, and we should read this as Yelm? Or is it Lightfore-Elmal and this seat on the ring is for other members of the Orlanth-Ernalda polycule, and we should read this as Yelmalio? (Note that Voria and minor Thunder Brothers have seats on this ring and they clearly don't have cults, so it genuinely could be a Yelm position filled by a person who has to phrase everything haughtily and wears a big yellow hat.)

I suspect that whatever variation appears in the Sartar book will resolve this, of course, but in the interim it vexes, aggravates, and minorly annoys. I may have to just put Heler on every tribal ring that becomes relevant. 

As an aside, the moment people start using Tharkantus or Daysenerus in discussions about what Sartarites understand, we've probably gone off the rails.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

_Orlanthi_ rarely worship solar powers. But In 1625 politics, as I understand it, Yelmalians are Sartarite, but not Orlanthi. 

That's what I meant, yes I said Sartarites when I should have said Orlanthi. But the question was "the Sartarite sun god". So the answer to that is clearly Yelmalio.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

in the interim it vexes, aggravates, and minorly annoys.

Fret no further. IMG any Orlanth ring that requires a seat for any stuffy old emperor ceases to be an Orlanth ring because forcing local authority to find a round peg to fit that mandated hole will become a drain on the system's ability to adapt spontaneously to change in the world. Every other tribal chief has the freedom to fill the ring from the ground up with whatever local talent circumstances provide, and if the mix doesn't work, the mix changes.

If I have to go out of my way to cultivate a Big Yellow Hat and take that person's counsel as seriously as I do everyone else's, I am no longer running the show . . . Big Yellow Hat ultimately becomes the role we all need to coddle and the haughtier the phrasing, the more work we all do learning what all that rigmarole means. And then when we balk, suddenly we're the rebels!

So in a typical ring this role will flex. Sometimes they call it Rainmaker and ascribe a loose bag of magical and social functions to it. The person assigned that bag figures out how and when to deploy it. Other times and other places they call the role something else and hand out a different bag, whatever bag they have to hand out.

I think the lover on the side role is pretty common in places where local Orlanth doesn't hit that particular spot. They might routinize social roles where that happens and so "heler" or some types of "elmal" (or moon or star) might become fairly common expressions there. Where you live with horse people, horse people are the common side husband. When you live with water people, water people experiences are frequent. Maybe in the water part of the world, the water experience becomes so regular that we say that's the rain person down there.

Other places Orlanth personally brings the weather. Some places weather is what Orlanth does and so you don't bring the weather without being at least naturally acquainted with what we call "thunderous." IMG this person could well be a type of vinga . . . none of my business. But then, in other places you might not have a Rainmaker at all for various reasons. 

Some intellectuals in the cities probably want a more cosmic ring but intellectuals like a lot of goofy things. One thing about Yelm is that he is a jealous god unwilling to be the side piece in any multi-ring circus, the "sixth business" as they say. I would argue that these people are one of many evolutions out of traditional Orlanth social psychology into something that might better resemble what they had in the Bright Empire or places like that.

We don't talk much about "post-theyalan" communities, what happens when local Orlanth ossifies into something else. Maybe there are all kinds of great monsters in places like Saird that can metaphorically turn people(s) into stone. Come to think of it they have a thriving statue cult there!

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by scott-martin
robertson davies gag

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Some intellectuals in the cities probably want a more cosmic ring but one thing about Yelm is that he is a jealous god unwilling to be the side piece in any multi-ring circus. I would argue that these people are one of many evolutions out of traditional Orlanth social psychology into something that might better resemble what they had in the Bright Empire or places like that. We don't talk much about "post-theyalan" communities, what happens when local Orlanth ossifies into something else. 

 

This last bit really hits the mark, except let me reverse things. Thunder Rebels (and by extension KoDP) presented an Orlanth cult that was stagnant, backwards looks, and hidebound.  This ossified Orlanth cult was changed dramatically by Sartar and his dynasty. The Orlanth cult in Sartar is far more dynamic, confident in their god's necessary role in Gloranthan cosmology and thus far more willing to recognize Yelmalio on his own terms rather than merely though the Elmal mask, with greater prominence for the other Lightbringers - scribes, healers, Tricksters, and merchants all play key social and religious roles in Sartar.

[scott-martin]

16 minutes ago, Jeff said:

confident in their god's necessary role in Gloranthan cosmology

Oh yeah. Lip service to "the Orlanth of my fathers" can be as stultifying as any other element, an undead society just going through the stereotyped motions. "Orlanth And Ernalda" has been exciting. A robust lightbringer system can be as magically sophisticated as anything they brag about in the great historical empires . . . and a whole lot more agile as long as we stick with it and resist the temptation to settle into a yelmlike or a malkionlike situation, a molanni or abstract High Storm architecture or whatever looks comfortable. 

Ambitious local leadership might look to the molanni stories in particular as a cautionary tale. There's a purity in old storm but it's ultimately sterile. It's not what we DO. It's not the kind of weather the ginna jar likes.

Edited September 22, 2021 by scott-martin

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Elmal is not a member of the High Thirteen of the tribal ring

I think @Eff referred to Guide p. 33:

"6-9. Orlanth’s four thanes: Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Elmal"

Edited September 22, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it refers to Guide p. 33:

"6-9. Orlanth’s four thanes: Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Elmal"

The problem with any of the cultural sections from the Guide is that they are not Sartar or even Dragon Pass specific, but trying to give the full range of Theyalan culture from Fronela to Umathela (the same problem exists in describing any broad culture as well). In Sartar, the High Thirteen are:
 

The High Thirteen are:

1.      Orlanth Rex, the King of the Gods;  

Orlanth Rex leads the entire council. The other positions are divided into two parts. The first part is the Orlanth ring and is comprised of six deities which are part of or associated with the Orlanth cult: 

2.      North Wind, cold, dark, and deadly (Humakt); 

3.      Mountain Wind, adventurous and bold (Orlanth Adventurous); 

4.      Beast Wind, untamed and slayer of Chaos (Storm Bull); 

5.      Earth Wind, warm and fertile from the south (Ernalda); 

6.      Fifth Wind, steady and calm (Kolat); and 

7.      Storm Wind, brave and cloudy warrior (Orlanth Thunderous)

The second part is the Lightbringers Ring:

8.      Issaries, Speaker and Keeper of the Way; 

9.      Lhankor Mhy, Keeper of Knowledge; 

10.   Chalana Arroy, Source of Mercy and Healing; 

11.   Eurmal, Clever and Wily Trickster; 

12.   Flesh Man, fearful and mortal. 

13.   the enigmatic Ginna Jar is manifest when summoned as the tribal wyter. 

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The problem with any of the cultural sections from the Guide is that they are not Sartar or even Dragon Pass specific, but trying to give the full range of Theyalan culture from Fronela to Umathela (the same problem exists in describing any broad culture as well).

Which are the areas that do use Elmal in this position (or the whole tribe ring structure from the Guide)?

Edited September 22, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Which are the areas that do use Elmal in this position (or the whole tribe ring structure from the Guide)?

At what point in Time? Remember for me, I had to address all of Glorantha and am not merely looking at things as a snapshot of 1621 or 1625.

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

At what point in Time? Remember for me, I had to address all of Glorantha and am not merely looking at things as a snapshot of 1621 or 1625.

It seems to describe the current state of affairs (it's written in present tense, at least)?

"Tribal organization mirrors
the divine council of the Orlanthi pantheon,
with specific positions filled by powerful
individuals who are devoted to various
deities of local importance. Most common
is the tribal council form which has thirteen
positions, each filled by one of the traditional
Theyalan deities:

1. Orlanth, the Chief; and
2-5. Four of Orlanth’s kin, typically
Humakt, Urox, and various
Thunder Brothers; and
6-9. Orlanth’s four thanes: Issaries,
Lhankor Mhy, Chalana
Arroy, Elmal; and
10. Ernalda, Orlanth’s wife and
queen of the gods; and
11. Ernalda’s mother Asrelia; and
12. Ernalda’s daughter Voria; and
13. Eurmal, the Trickster."

Edited September 22, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It seems to describe the current state of affairs?

"Tribal organization mirrors
the divine council of the Orlanthi pantheon,
with specific positions filled by powerful
individuals who are devoted to various
deities of local importance. Most common
is the tribal council form which has thirteen
positions, each filled by one of the traditional
Theyalan deities:

1. Orlanth, the Chief; and
2-5. Four of Orlanth’s kin, typically
Humakt, Urox, and various
Thunder Brothers; and
6-9. Orlanth’s four thanes: Issaries,
Lhankor Mhy, Chalana
Arroy, Elmal; and
10. Ernalda, Orlanth’s wife and
queen of the gods; and
11. Ernalda’s mother Asrelia; and
12. Ernalda’s daughter Voria; and
13. Eurmal, the Trickster."

Elmal in this version is sitting in Flesh Man's seat. Since ANYONE can be Flesh Man, there you are.

[Alex]

58 minutes ago, Jeff said:

This ossified Orlanth cult was changed dramatically by Sartar and his dynasty. The Orlanth cult in Sartar is far more dynamic, [...]

Which one?  Ask six Orlanthi, get seven opinions!  I think this is certainly true if you ask at 'HQ' -- if you ask the Prince or the Boldhome High Storm Voice, no question -- the Far Point tribes are an important (and semi-detachable) part of the Kingdom, there's whatever-the-exact-current-relationship with Sun Dome to maintain, and so on.  Why re-pick an old quarrel with them that was painfully settled before?  (OK, because they're Orlanthi, that's why, but good counsel will intermittently prevail not to.)

OTOH in the backwoods, things will be more variable.  The last game I ran that was pretty much clear from Session Zero.  Clangen instantly went down the 'I told them it was the thin end of the wedge when they built roads!'  The Elmal thing didn't really come up at all in that game that I recall, but if it had I strongly suspect the PCs would have had the stagnant, backwards looking, and hidebound take on it.

[Alex]

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Which are the areas that do use Elmal in this position (or the whole tribe ring structure from the Guide)?

My take would be that's essentially each tribe's own beeswax.  Not whimsically, of course, but following their own tradition, or whatever elegant compromise was hammered out when that Tribal Ring was originally formed, or re-formed in some political or ritual crisis.  Naturally there will be regional (and temporal) patterns, but there's no guarantee of compete uniformity in a given confederation, kingdom, etc.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think @Eff referred to Guide p. 33:

"6-9. Orlanth’s four thanes: Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Elmal"

I was actually thinking of a general trend between King of Sartar and the Guide. It may be that the Sourcebook also has a version with Heler, or possibly the HQ2 Sartar books, because I am confident there was a version I saw with that 4th thane position having options of [Little Sun] or Heler. But I could well be wrong, and I don't have ready sourcebook access at the moment. And now it has been clarified that this version does not exist in Sartar, and presumably does not exist anywhere in Glorantha in present time, although hypothetically it might exist if you swap a name or two. And this thread, I am given to understand, is about Sartar and Sartarites and their perspective and those hypothetical versions are irrelevant to it. Ah well, question answered!

[JonL]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

It may be that the Sourcebook also has a version with Heler, or possibly the HQ2 Sartar books, because I am confident there was a version I saw with that 4th thane position having options of [Little Sun] or Heler. But I could well be wrong, and I don't have ready sourcebook access at the moment. And now it has been clarified that this version does not exist in Sartar, and presumably does not exist anywhere in Glorantha in present time, although hypothetically it might exist if you swap a name or two.

That seat being a pivot point between those bolded two specifically, I'd expect to see it on Rings in Heortland & Esrolia, in keeping with the annual Elmal vs Heler competition to be Esrola's year-husband. (I now contemplate an Argan Argar follower making a play for it, because we all know who Esrola really wants.)

[Alex]

1 hour ago, JonL said:

That seat being a pivot point between those bolded two specifically, I'd expect to see it on Rings in Heortland & Esrolia, in keeping with the annual Elmal vs Heler competition to be Esrola's year-husband.

And you thought that the US midterms was a short and tough electoral cycle.  "Hammy the Weather Hamster says three more weeks of Sea Season.  Rurik the Restless, you're fired!"

2 hours ago, Eff said:

I was actually thinking of a general trend between King of Sartar and the Guide. It may be that the Sourcebook also has a version with Heler, or possibly the HQ2 Sartar books, because I am confident there was a version I saw with that 4th thane position having options of [Little Sun] or Heler. 

Can't find such a list, but my search is by no means definitive.  KoS's and the GtG's agree exactly to the naked eye, as you say.  Nor of course, still less even, can I rifle through your brain as to why you might be thinking this, but Heler is very frequently referred to as "Orlanth's loyal thane" (as staunch as Heler, etc, etc), possibly appears on some take on "Orlanth's four (weapon)thanes", and so you may have been eliding that with the "thanes" thing on that list?

At any rate, it seems like a very logical and so likely as to be almost inevitable to happen someplace (whether rationalised as a TB, a thane, or as Flesh Man), especially as Heler is a noted variant member on the Traditional Clan Ring.  So below, so above!

Edited September 22, 2021 by Alex

[Darius West]

The fact is, if your character happens to be in Far Point prior to 1625, and even during 1625, the Yelmalio versus Elmal fight is still being played out according to KoS.  Harvar Ironfist has been seeking to forcibly convert the tribes of Far Point to the worship of Yelmalio.  When the worship of Orlanth was outlawed, many Far Pointers chose to worship Elmal and "defend their steads".  Obviously this didn't please the Lunar Occupiers, and the next step in control and assimilation of the area was to enforce the worship of the new god (I do hope Chaosium is not following this example 😜).  Of course Ironfist is vigorously opposed by the intransigent tribe of heroes, the Tovtari, but at great cost to the tribe.  The boggy uplands that hang above Snakepipe Hollow have always been dangerous, and the Tovtari have a home ground advantage there, so it has been hard going for Lunar and Yelmalio punitive expeditions to make headway.  Steads have been burned (well, smoked, it's all too waterlogged from the Sky River storm to actually burn), moss covered sheep stolen, and families put to flight by the religious persecution, which is really shorthand for broader political persecution in the service of Empire.  The Tovtari never bent the knee.  The Tovtari know that the Hero Wars started with them in 1602 when the Household of Death failed at the Temple of the Reaching Moon, and Far Point became occupied.  For the Tovtari, there is no compromise; Elmal is not Yelmalio.  They will never bend their knee to Yelm, or Dara Happan tyranny, because they are the Hero Tribe who hold the line between the chaos of Snakepipe Hollow and the rest of Sartar.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Darius West

[Alex]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

during 1625, the Yelmalio versus Elmal fight is still being played out according to KoDP

KoS?

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, Alex said:

KoS?

Yep.  My bad. Thx.  Corrected in text.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Darius West

[metcalph]

Harvar's fight was against the Righteous Wind, not the Elmali.

Quote

The Orlanthi supporters raised the Righteous Wind
and took up arms. The same year in Storm Season the city of Alda-Chur was torn asunder
by rival mobs of Orlanth and Lunar supporters. At last Harvar Ironfist, a noble of the
Vantaros Tribe, attacked the Orlanthi with his windwalking thanes and destroyed his rivals
inside the Orlanth holy site. He was made Prince of the Alda-Churi and ordered all clans to
purge themselves of all who would not submit to the Red Moon. A flood of new refugees
swarmed southward.

King of Sartar p119

Now there are some oddities about this passage (wind-walking?) that allow for re-interpretation but to interpret this as an explicit suppression of Elmali worship goes too far.  

 

[Jape_Vicho]

10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Now there are some oddities about this passage (wind-walking?) 

I remember reading somewhere that the "wind walking" is a reference to Garganth. 

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I remember reading somewhere that the "wind walking" is a reference to Garganth. 

Yeas, the oddity is why a Yelmalion would have worshippers of Gargarth as his thanes.  I myself think it a slur  or comment about his thanes tactics that misread as a comment about the religion of his thanes.  Shades of the Thuggee here.