Is Etyries worshipped in Esrolia ?

[M Helsdon]

In terrestrial ancient Near Eastern art, red is often used to denote a skin tone, especially male, especially readily apparent in Egyptian tombs, and probably very widely spread. For example, the name Adam denotes 'red' and particularly red clay. In Esrolia, there's at least one red-skinned Earth Goddess, and probably many more.

In Glorantha, as I understand it, red was a colour associated with Orlanth, and particularly with thanes? Its appropriation by the Lunars is perhaps another reason why Orlanthi detest the Lunars. I would expect many statues and figurines to have reddish faces.

Here's a  Romano-Egyptian mummy mask. I'm sure if we could wander the ancient world, especially Greece, we would be astonished by the use of colour.

And a non-canonical image by Katrin Dirim for my current Jonstown Compendium project showing a number of deities at Nochet - only one is Lunar.

Edited March 7, 2022 by M Helsdon

[AlHazred]

In older Glorantha supplements, they usually name things "The Knowledge Temple" or "The Market" and those are the holy places. In places where Orlanthi gods dominate, the Knowledge Temple will be used by Issaries worshippers, and other Knowledge deities may or may not be permitted to use it depending on their cult relationships -- Yelmalio Truthers, for instance, would probably be permitted to do some ceremonies there if they relate to knowledge, divination, or similar.

When another cult takes over, like the Market in Pavis being taken over by Etyries merchants after the Lunar Empire came to town, then things shift. There might be some changes in policy, and new ceremonies replacing old ones. But Issaries merchants would still probably be allowed in (I seem to remember Biturian doing something like this).

Esrolia is the Land of 10,000 Goddesses, and if a foreign merchant who followed Etyries came to town, they'd probably be allowed to use the Trade Temple for their private ceremonies. If they started proselytizing, converting Issaries worshippers to the new goddess, there would be friction and the proselytizer might find they have lost privileges. On the other hand, if they lost privileges, that could lead to friction between the Trade Temple and the Red Earth faction, which could lead to a rise in civil disobedience, and so on, and so on.

I'm saying, this is all excellent fodder for roleplaying games. Great opportunities!

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:59 AM, M Helsdon said:

And a non-canonical image by Katrin Dirim for my current Jonstown Compendium project showing a number of deities at Nochet - only one is Lunar.

I vote to transform this great picture as a "canonical" one, even if I m not a lore master, and nobody asked my opinion 😛

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 3/7/2022 at 4:59 AM, M Helsdon said:

And a non-canonical image by Katrin Dirim for my current Jonstown Compendium project showing a number of deities at Nochet - only one is Lunar.

sir which one

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

sir which one

Clearly the Moon Cat! 😉  (Or more likely the woman next to it with the Life and Death runes on her dress - by age/dress, perhaps Deezola as incarnation of the 7 Mothers.)

[Eff]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Clearly the Moon Cat! 😉  (Or more likely the woman next to it with the Life and Death runes on her dress - by age/dress, perhaps Deezola as incarnation of the 7 Mothers.)

I dunno, she just has Moon Runes all over her, is adorned with reflective silver, is carrying a hand mirror, and has a color scheme of red white blue and black. I just think she might be Xemela. 

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

sir which one

The Red Goddess, standing by the Moon Cat and being tempted by Seseine. This is an in-world illustration, and the person in-world painting the wall mural knows very little of Lunar theology.

Edited March 11, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Red Goddess, standing by the Moon Cat and being tempted by Seseine. This is an in-world illustration, and the person in-world painting the wall mural knows very little of Lunar theology.

damn that's seseine? who is the weeping Light figure on the other side of the Monster Woman?

Edited March 11, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[JRE]

It feels right than in Esrolia they use Deezola as the reference for the Red Goddess, if your main contact are Seven Mother missionnaries. All the other Mothers feel either alien (Jakaleel, Danfive Xaron, She who waits) or more of what they already know (Yanafal Tarnils, Irripi Ontor, Teelo Norri). Deezola seems the one that a matriarch can relate to. Even if she covers her breasts, ashamed of her motherhood. 

I am not sure the fiigure is a light god. Seems a male version of the goddess in the prow of the boat, which I assume is Chalana Arroy, so it could be Arroin. Crybaby healers. 

It would be a nice Gloranthan pub quiz, and a lovely illustration. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

Jakaleel

Jakaleel would be a wild choice that I bet the Esrolians would love, because she's a troll death witch, but she's played down in the Seven Mothers representations and I doubt the Lunars have the cultural competency to present these mysteries to the Red Earth Faction.

[AlHazred]

Are Jakaleel's variations (sorcery school, etc.) from HeroQuest still canonical, or have they been eliminated?

[Qizilbashwoman]

16 minutes ago, AlHazred said:

Are Jakaleel's variations (sorcery school, etc.) from HeroQuest still canonical, or have they been eliminated?

we won't know till the book comes out but she still was a devil hell moon troll witch

I hope she still has spirit cults, though

Edited March 11, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[AlHazred]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

we won't know till the book comes out but she still was a devil hell moon troll witch

I hope she still has spirit cults, though

Frankly, while I liked a lot of stuff about Jakaleel in HQ1/2 (it made her weird, like she's supposed to be!), the sorcery school felt off.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

we won't know till the book comes out but she still was a devil hell moon troll witch

I hope she still has spirit cults, though

Jakaleel is not a sorcery cult (that's Irrippi Ontor). The witch-priests of Jakaleel are shamans. 

Pretty much nothing from the ILH-1 and 2 books are being carried into RQ. 

[AlHazred]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Jakaleel is not a sorcery cult (that's Irrippi Ontor). The witch-priests of Jakaleel are shamans. 

Pretty much nothing from the ILH-1 and 2 books are being carried into RQ. 

Excellent! I understand it will be different, but I loved the flavor of the interrelated spirit societies in the HQ1 book. Very weird, excellent NPC color!

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

damn that's seseine? 

Blue with horns. The Vadeli in Nochet have a shrine or temple.

7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

who is the weeping Light figure on the other side of the Monster Woman?

I believe that's Serelaloon.

All the deities in the picture have worshippers in Nochet. The depictions here are seen through an Esrolian lens, or at least that of the Esrolian artist.

Some of the art direction:

Now the complicated part – the marketplace is full of figures, a crowd not of mortals but gods and goddesses. I doubt you can show them all, but these will include some of Ernalda’s daughters and relatives, some of her husbands (not Orlanth), some of the Noble Brothers, and other deities, Veskarthan, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Arkat, Calyz, Rich Twins, Okeria, Serelaloon, Argan Argar, Bendalazu, Seseine, Uleria, the Red Goddess…. Maybe some behind others…

There were subsequent discussions about the gods to be shown, some added. some removed.

The book now has over a dozen, approaching two dozen illustrations like this - though this is one of the most ornate. I have shared portions of others on FaceBook. There is a great deal in them.

Edited March 11, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Austin]

On 3/6/2022 at 1:25 AM, Agentorange said:

So on the YGMV principle is it possible that Etyries might be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia ( remember  - female dominated country and society ) as a goddess of trade. if that's a step too far could she be a regionally important sub cult of Issaries given much more veneration in Esrolia than elsewhere perhaps ? lastly the rules don't actually state that Issaries priests have to be male do they. There's an implication but it doesn't come out and say it does it ? So would it be possible that in Esrolia we see a much larger  number of female Issaries priests and initiates ?

Speaking only for my Esrolia, she's one of the few Lunar deities who have continued to be worshiped after the Red Earth Alliance was given the boot. After the Siege of Nochet there was a wave of civil unrest, which mostly led to Lunar icons being torn down, and citizens of the Red Empire being thrown out of the cities. In the city I've been playing in/writing in, there was a one-year ban of foreign worship of the Lunar gods, to purify the community of the strife stirred up by the Red Earth Alliance. A few nobles got knives in the back, someone got eaten by elementals, and there was both physical and economic prejudice toward those who continued to venerate the new gods.

An important distinction between Esrolia & Sartar, in my Glorantha, is that the Red Goddess's claim to the Middle Air is not inimical to the local religion; it merely seeks to supplant one of several husband-protectors. And some of the Grandmothers like the idea of Doburdun - the "obedient storm" (I think?) - being identified with Barntar, the Loyal Son. Though, no one has yet successfully proved this identification in a major ritual.

One significant exception to the general mistrust of the new gods is Etyries, for reasons similar to what you've mentioned. I don't think of her much as the "daughter of Issaries," but I do feel that because of the matriarchal supremacy in the region, there's a tendency toward liking the Red Trader. She's the only Lunar goddess who was accepted into my city's pantheon of "city gods," and her worshipers weren't subject to religious persecution (although the common folk probably didn't make a distinction between worshipers of Etyries, the Seven Mothers, Yanafal Tarnils, etc.). Issaries is still the more powerful cult - in particular due to the massive Issaries market in Nochet. In my Esrolia, Etyries was pretty much unknown until the Lunars conquered Sartar.

I haven't explored what Etyries worship really looks like yet, in my city. I know that Issaries is worshiped by the local merchant guild, the Fat Women. It's led by a female Rune Priest, and I assume somewhere between 60% and 70% of the local worshipers are women. It's a small cult, focused more on internal trade, and providing support for the traders and caravans which come through the area. Most trade is between the Esrolian city-states, not international (that goes out of Nochet or Rhigos).

I imagine that in a hundred years, the Etyries and Issaries cult in my area will have synthesized. Probably adopting the name of Etyries, but with a system of worship which looks like Issaries. The daughter story will get played up, and emphasized within Ernaldan traditions. After all, a major part of Ernalda's claim to sovereignty is that she is Asrelia's daughter. A similar myth can be developed here, to explain how Etyries is the true master/mistress of trade, who was taught by her devoted father, and then exceeded him. I don't know if this hypothetical Etyries of the future is still associated with Moon worship. (And of course, that assumes there's still a moon around to worship!)

[JRE]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:25 PM, M Helsdon said:

I believe that's Serelaloon.

I had to look her up. A Kralorean version of Chalana Arroy, probably a God Lerner remnant. I took the flower to mean healing herbs, which was why I went to the better known Arroin, though I see how it would be better to have goddesses in the picture.

I am sure there are so called sons of Issaries (and a few daughters) all over Glorantha, as a remnant of the pan Issaries Middle Sea Empires trade network, even if they are not developed in publications. More locally specific than Issaries, and better linked with the local cults, specially if they are not orlanthi. What happens with Harst or Garzeen, but specific to the culture, rather than the Vingkotlings. So I am sure the Issaries cult has no problem with Etyries, and they will be welcomed in Issaries temples (except when no lunar will be welcomed, such as wartime Sartar) and allowed to worship. Etyries traders will also be used to using Issaries temples so they will surely downplay the Empire connection and play up the Issaries daughter link.

Eventually it may work actually as a subcult of Issaries, if trade between the Empire and the Holy country keep up. I suspect Argrath may even encourage it in later years, by coopting Etyries when Sartar pushes north. 

 

 

[davecake]

On 3/6/2022 at 5:04 PM, Agentorange said:

would she be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia as one of the 10,000 goddesses quite apart from any Lunar association that there might be.

No. Etyries is only known through the Lunars - she is really (historically) more like a heroquester who proved she was a daughter of Issaries, and devoted herself to the Red Goddess as well, during the historical Zero Wane era (in the Third Age), so bounded by history and time much more than Issaries is. She is a foreign goddess who is strongly associated with the Lunar culture. 

That said, Esrolia in general, but Nochet especially, is pretty welcoming of foreign trader gods. Etyries will be strongly associated with the Lunar culture, but not necessarily seen as that linked to the Lunar Empire by most people (even the Asrelia’s Grandmothers who seek to maintain financial domination are not opposed to Lunar trade, as long as they set the terms). But as Jeff says, the number of worshippers will be small, probably mostly shrines, or temporary shrines, set up by Lunar traders directly. It might have been something more permanent in that Lunar temple in Nochet, and then replicated in other trade centers - if history had gone differently, and the Nochet Lunar temple hadn’t been burnt down, and the Lunarisation works of the Red Earth Alliance looted and razed. 

Side note: in my take on the various pre-Dragonrise attempts of the Lunars to take over Esrolia, by political conspiracy or warfare, Fazzur is very much motivated by his awareness of the absolute squillions of Lunars to be made by joining the Oslir trade route (which his lands sit astride) to the Nochet connection to the oceanic trade routes. He sees the chance that an alliance between his control of Dragon Pass in general, and Kordros Island in particular, and Queen Hendira and her control of Nochet could make them two of the richest people in Glorantha - which is why he is so outraged when the Assiday, heartland jerks who care only about the religious implications and impressing the Emperor, mess it all up 🤬🤯not only do they predicate the uprising, ultimately losing it all in their arrogant triumphalism, but they don’t ever realise what they have ruined. 

 

On 3/6/2022 at 5:04 PM, Agentorange said:

Would there be a particularly independent Esrolian version of Etyries worship ?

I don’t think the reasoning is entirely wrong, but it does not happen due to history - direct Lunar trade to the Holy Country is a very recent thing, and it hasn’t had time to develop any distinct regional flavour, and it won’t get to because it’s already pretty much gone again. But if Fazzur and Hendira had succeeded it probably would have, maybe not via some Etyries Travel and Journeyer turning up and pointing out Etyries is really that 17th statue from the left (see that red colour?) in a temple at Ezel or whatever. 
(though maybe the really awesome option for a budding Etyries mythic engineer would be tying a Blue Moon connection to the Red Moon in with control over the tides and the secret Moon association with the God Forgot area for a Lunar sea trade cult - definitely something for an alternate Glorantha though, not the one in which Argrath and Samastina and Harrek run them out of the place). 

[davecake]

FWIW, I think it makes reasonable sense that Issaries is not particularly matriarchal in Esrolia. Trade is the domain of Issaries, but finance is the domain of Asrelia, and has the upper hand over the traders, at least until the recent Opening of the Seas, and even now it is Asrelia who finances trading expeditions, has stores of the rarest and most desired goods (and all the other goods too, really), owns the warehouses, etc. The Esrolian Grandmothers of the Asrelia cult control more wealth than Emperors - and the Issaries traders are one of the several parts of the system by which they convert that vast wealth into even vaster wealth. 
Though obviously opening the granaries to feed people during Ernalda’s sleep during the Windstop, the expenses of war, various complications with pirates, and eventually probably some enormous scheme of sea walls and dykes during the great flood is all going to take a bit of a hit to the bottom line. 

[davecake]

On 3/12/2022 at 2:34 AM, AlHazred said:

Are Jakaleel's variations (sorcery school, etc.) from HeroQuest still canonical, or have they been eliminated?

No (as Jeff says), they are not canonical. The gods book will present Jakaleel as a Shamanic cult (and, of course, as part of the Seven Mothers cult). 

But… canon is not simply about what is and isn’t. It’s about a shared baseline, what the big strokes of the world are like, what things are significant. Canon deliberately does not fill in every detail, because there is always space for players to fill with their own ideas. The Lunars are a culture that very much values (indeed, is founded on) a culture of syncretic magical innovation, and have had a few centuries of their best magicians being Illuminates actively combining multiple magical forms and trained to coordinate with each other, and in many cases explore each other’s mysteries. Canon does not try to present it all, nor should it. 

It’s entirely plausible that an enterprising Lunar Sorcerer Illuminate, probably of the Major Classes of the Lunar College of Magic and used to working closely with Jakaleel Witches, began a project of achieving similar effects by sorcerous means (maybe also getting into Spolite sorcery too), and treats it as a form of sorcerous veneration of Jakaleel (whether or not other Lunars think it makes sense to do is almost beside the point). If you want such a sorcerer to show up in your game, why not? The rules certainly permit a sorcerer with Darkness and Ghost controlling/summoning magic. And if you want this sorcerer to blather on about being part of the Spindle Hag School and be an Illuminated Lunar in the LCM, etc, why not? Don’t let them being non-canon stop you. Just don’t expect such obscurities and oddities to be acknowledged in canon products, to be significant in numbers or in their effect on the shared story - but they can be in your Glorantha and your story. A sorcerer who summons Lunar demons and commands ghosts sounds a cool campaign villain, with some interesting potential differences to Jakaleel witch-shamans. 

Personally, I am glad that the Gods book will not be going into the excessive proliferation of entities that fill every niche, no matter how specific, with a named entity with its own full writeup. But I’m also pleased we have the JC so if we want to produce versions of such things for our own games, we can. 

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

No (as Jeff says), they are not canonical. The gods book will present Jakaleel as a Shamanic cult (and, of course, as part of the Seven Mothers cult). 

But… canon is not simply about what is and isn’t. It’s about a shared baseline, what the big strokes of the world are like, what things are significant. Canon deliberately does not fill in every detail, because there is always space for players to fill with their own ideas. The Lunars are a culture that very much values (indeed, is founded on) a culture of syncretic magical innovation, and have had a few centuries of their best magicians being Illuminates actively combining multiple magical forms and trained to coordinate with each other, and in many cases explore each other’s mysteries. Canon does not try to present it all, nor should it. 

It’s entirely plausible that an enterprising Lunar Sorcerer Illuminate, probably of the Major Classes of the Lunar College of Magic and used to working closely with Jakaleel Witches, began a project of achieving similar effects by sorcerous means (maybe also getting into Spolite sorcery too), and treats it as a form of sorcerous veneration of Jakaleel (whether or not other Lunars think it makes sense to do is almost beside the point). If you want such a sorcerer to show up in your game, why not? The rules certainly permit a sorcerer with Darkness and Ghost controlling/summoning magic. And if you want this sorcerer to blather on about being part of the Spindle Hag School and be an Illuminated Lunar in the LCM, etc, why not? Don’t let them being non-canon stop you. Just don’t expect such obscurities and oddities to be acknowledged in canon products, to be significant in numbers or in their effect on the shared story - but they can be in your Glorantha and your story. A sorcerer who summons Lunar demons and commands ghosts sounds a cool campaign villain, with some interesting potential differences to Jakaleel witch-shamans. 

Personally, I am glad that the Gods book will not be going into the excessive proliferation of entities that fill every niche, no matter how specific, with a named entity with its own full writeup. But I’m also pleased we have the JC so if we want to produce versions of such things for our own games, we can. 

There is already a means by which Lunar Illuminates can twist around spirit magic, and I suspect that there is a heavy tie between Jakaleel shamans and the Red Goddess cult. But that's not sorcery.

If you want to have your own mash-up of Jakaleel and sorcery and whatever in your game, go for it. But Jakaleel's approach to magic is radically different from Irrippi Ontor's rationalism.

[scott-martin]

On 3/13/2022 at 3:33 AM, Crel said:

The daughter story will get played up, and emphasized within Ernaldan traditions. After all, a major part of Ernalda's claim to sovereignty is that she is Asrelia's daughter.

This will come as a shock in the right quarters. I love it.

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Canon is not simply about what is and isn’t. It’s about a shared baseline, what the big strokes of the world are like, what things are significant. Canon deliberately does not fill in every detail, because there is always space for players to fill with their own ideas.

This is exactly right! And some weird complaints ("My Lhankor Mhy Sword Sages aren't canonical any more!") are absurdly easy to retrofit: they're important to you, so they can feature in your games, but the owners of canon don't think it important enough to insist they exist in everyone else's games. Likewise the Lanbril Kitchen Sink Thieves' Guild writeup from RQ Classic Pavis: it's fairly daft, but if that's your kind of daftness, please feel free to keep using it. And the same again with (checks notes) weird insane Jakaleeli variant approaches to magic, devised by small numbers of practitioners in one of the most effervescently creative and freethinking Lunar traditions.

[Jeff]

The Seven Mothers has a strong movement towards proselytization, and there are somewhat less than 12,000 Seven Mothers initiates in all of Esrolia. That number may sound impressive but it is a statistical blip in Esrolia (about 1% of the population). The biggest concentration of them are in Nochet, where there are some 1600 Seven Mothers initiates (for comparison, Sartar has over 5000 Seven Mothers initiates, including some 900 in Boldhome). 

The rest of the Seven Mothers cultists are primarily rural and associated with the Red Earth faction. Their patronage by Queen Hendira (1610-1622) made them political and socially important beyond their numbers, but Samastina (1622-) has curtailed their privileges and suppressed them in the wake of the Battle of Pennel Ford (1624).