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Is Etyries worshipped in Esrolia ?


Agentorange

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Etyries is stated as being a daughter of issaries and that she became curious about the Red Goddess went off to find her and ended up being the Lunar Empires premier Goddess of trade.

But Esrolia is the land of 10,000 Goddesses all the printed stuff out there seems to suggest it's an intensely matriarchal land : men  are loved and valued in their own right and as husband protectors, but the reins of power are clearly held by women, by Grandmothers and grandmothers and the political and religious landscape is dominated by women.

That being the case it seems odd to me that Issaries - an essentially male trade god would be worshipped and Etyries a known daughter of issaries wouldn't be. the version of issaries in the rules is essentially the Sartarite orlanthi/hill tribe trade god a much more male focused society, and stepping back into the real world issaries was first dreamed up by a bunch of guys, is a male dominated hobby for a male dominated audience....

So on the YGMV principle is it possible that Etyries might be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia ( remember  - female dominated country and society ) as a goddess of trade. if that's a step too far could she be a regionally important sub cult of Issaries given much more veneration in Esrolia than elsewhere perhaps ? lastly the rules don't actually state that Issaries priests have to be male do they. There's an implication but it doesn't come out and say it does it ? So would it be possible that in Esrolia we see a much larger  number of female Issaries priests and initiates ?

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Etyries is the goddess of the Lunar Empire's traders, she's not just a female version of Issaries. Her cult has very little power outside places where the empire has a foothold. And Issaries isn't just the Sartarite trade god, he is the god of trade and communication, worshiped across the lozenge by many different peoples.

Issaries worshipers in no way have to be male, any more so than Lankhor Mhy or Chalana Arroy worshipers do. Orlanth and Ernalda are the only gods in the Orlanthi pantheon with a gender bias, unless you count LM's beard requirement (which is perfectly satisfied by a fake beard).

Ironically, I think Esrolia might actually have less female Issaries than elsewhere, since the earth goddesses have so much more influence. If you want to be anything in Esrolian society your best bet is to join one of their cults.

Also, while Esrolia is a matriarchy, that doesn't mean that women are automatically favored in everything, it just means that the ruling class is made up of women, and more specifically that the ruling class is made up of mothers and grandmothers. Everything else is pretty similar to how Orlanthi elsewhere do things, which if you take a look you'll find is actually fairly equal between the sexes.

Edited by Richard S.
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21 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Entekosiad potrays Etyries as a near contemporary of Valare Addi suggesting she was active in 1220 ST.   If she came from South Peloria, Esrolia would have been barred by the Inhuman Occupation.

Alas i don't own the Entekosiad

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In the Red Earth faction [the faction that wanted to ally with the Lunar Empire; defeated by Samestina in 1623] would certainly have a few Etyries worshipers in it. While they're out of favor, there's still going to be some Lunar holdouts here and there. And among the Seven Mothers constituents will undoubtedly be Etyries adherents.

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35 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Alas i don't own the Entekosiad

It is worth buying as a PDF https://www.chaosium.com/the-entekosiad-pdf/.

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

So on the YGMV principle is it possible that Etyries might be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia ( remember  - female dominated country and society ) as a goddess of trade.

Yes, if Lunars trade with Esrolia, there would be shrines to Etyries, probably in shops and trade halls, where Lunars trade.

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

if that's a step too far could she be a regionally important sub cult of Issaries given much more veneration in Esrolia than elsewhere perhaps ?

She would definitely be regarded as a subcult of Issaries, being his daughter. She could even have shrines in Issaries Temples.

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

lastly the rules don't actually state that Issaries priests have to be male do they. There's an implication but it doesn't come out and say it does it ?

There is no gender restriction. I can't remember it even being implied. It doesn't say so because it isn't the case.

 

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11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It is worth buying as a PDF https://www.chaosium.com/the-entekosiad-pdf/.

 

There is no gender restriction. I can't remember it even being implied. It doesn't say so because it isn't the case.

 

I think it's probably because the term priests as opposed to priestesses is used. Ernalda, Maran Gor, Eiritha all have priestesses mentioned in the rule book, whereas Issaries has priests which seemed to suggest a gender divide.

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17 minutes ago, soltakss said:

 

Yes, if Lunars trade with Esrolia, there would be shrines to Etyries, probably in shops and trade halls, where Lunars trade.

She would definitely be regarded as a subcult of Issaries, being his daughter. She could even have shrines in Issaries Temples.

 

 

Sorry, that's me not being very clear in what I was trying to say. I'll try and rephrase: would she be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia as one of the 10,000 goddesses quite apart from any Lunar association that there might be. Would there be a particularly independent Esrolian version of Etyries worship ?

I do definately think she'd be a sub cult of Issaries with shrines of her own, but wondered if it might go further than that given the intensely matriarchal and female centred nature of Esrolia.

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16 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Sorry, that's me not being very clear in what I was trying to say. I'll try and rephrase: would she be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia as one of the 10,000 goddesses quite apart from any Lunar association that there might be. Would there be a particularly independent Esrolian version of Etyries worship ?

I do definately think she'd be a sub cult of Issaries with shrines of her own, but wondered if it might go further than that given the intensely matriarchal and female centred nature of Esrolia.

The "10,000 goddesses" are specifically the earth goddesses found in Esrolia, not just female deities in general. The primary "hat" of Esrolia is earth worship, not female dominance. It just happens that earth worship is already dominated by women.

Etyries can't exist outside of Lunar influence because her entire nature is as one of the Lunar immortals. She became a god within time by following the teaching of the Red Goddess, and so is inextricably tied to her empire.

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2 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I think it's probably because the term priests as opposed to priestesses is used. Ernalda, Maran Gor, Eiritha all have priestesses mentioned in the rule book, whereas Issaries has priests which seemed to suggest a gender divide.

Unfortunately, English does not have a gender-neutral word for Priest/Priestess, so Priest includes both men and women. In fact, Many cults use Priestess and have male Priests. So, the word Priest or Priestess doesn't really mean a lo, for most cults.

2 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Sorry, that's me not being very clear in what I was trying to say. I'll try and rephrase: would she be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia as one of the 10,000 goddesses quite apart from any Lunar association that there might be. Would there be a particularly independent Esrolian version of Etyries worship ?

The 10,000 Goddesses are really the Earth Goddesses worshipped there.

Etyries became famous in the Third Age, well after the 10k Goddesses were established.

However, I think that Etyries would be worshipped separately, as a Goddess in her own right. After all, why shouldn't she? Etyries is not one of the Seven Mothers, so should be treated as a separate cult.

I think there probably is an independent version of Etyries worshipped in Esrolia. This would be Etyries with the Moon connections filed off. Lunars would worship her as a Lunar Goddess, though.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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6 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Etyries is stated as being a daughter of issaries and that she became curious about the Red Goddess went off to find her and ended up being the Lunar Empires premier Goddess of trade.

Etyries is a Lunar goddess, not a Godtime figure, so while a "daughter of Issaries", that says more about her starting as an Issaries initiate and following paths that took her beyond that.

6 hours ago, Agentorange said:

is it possible that Etyries might be worshipped in her own right in Esrolia

Etyries controls trade for the Lunar Empire and sponsors great trading caravans, of which those to Esrolia/Nochet - with access to the goods from across the seas - are certainly the most important.  So, yes, you will find worshiped there, but expect that to largely be by those factors and agents who are buying/selling the goods that the Lunar Empire desires and that Lunar caravans will take north.  And that's a very lucrative trade as it brings Lunar goods to Nochet and Esrolia as well.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If there are Lunar merchants somewhere, there will be the worship of Etyries, though in a very restricted, minor way. There won't be any temples, or any shrines, save perhaps those carried by an Etyries merchant caravan.

I'd expect shrines in those places where Etyries factors have set up for trade.  This will be confined to the larger cities, but beyond Nochet, you'd likely find in Rhigos, Storos, and Mylagos tying into the trade from Maniria and Caladraland.

6 hours ago, Agentorange said:

That being the case it seems odd to me that Issaries - an essentially male trade god would be worshipped and Etyries a known daughter of issaries wouldn't be

As others have noted, the use of the word "priest" does not connote that Issaries is essentially a "male" trade god.  He is worshiped by merchants - male and female alike.

And the presence of 10000 goddesses in Esrolia does not exclude male deities.  ALL of Ernalda's husband-protectors can be found in Esrolia.  

As for Issaries - the greatest temple to Issaries in all of Glorantha is in Nochet in Esrolia.  It is the largest market in the world.  (And if you look at the maps in the Esrolia book, you'll note that Issaries has been present in Nochet from nearly its beginning.)  And this is similar for LM - his greatest temple is also in Nochet.

6 hours ago, Agentorange said:

if that's a step too far could she be a regionally important sub cult of Issaries given much more veneration in Esrolia than elsewhere perhaps ?

Two things to keep in mind:  1) Issaries is the god of the market - he can create a NEUTRAL trading ground, and no other god can do that; 2) Etyries is the LUNAR goddess of trade - she is NOT neutral, but if you want to do business with the Lunar Empire, you need to work with her.

Unless Esrolia becomes part of the Lunar Empire, Etyries will not receive wide veneration there - and she doesn't need to.  Her cult works to ensure that trade goods continue to flow north to the Empire and that the Empire's goods are brought to market in the south.

(Note, too, that Issaries is not excluded from the Lunar Empire!  He is still the god of the marketplaces and neutral grounds, but the Etyries cult will be there to ensure that the Empire gets its share/cut of the trade.)

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There is a statue of a woman with red skin and a staff topped with a Communication Rune in the artwork used for Sacred Time in the calendar included in the Gamemaster Pack, incorporated into a depiction of Ernalda. Vasana and Yanioth are preparing to sacrifice a pig in the foreground. Orlanth is also present in the depiction. 

So this is probably in Esrolia, and probably shows a devotional image of Etyries associated with Ernalda in a post-Lunar purge world. 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

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39 minutes ago, Eff said:

There is a statue of a woman with red skin and a staff topped with a Communication Rune in the artwork used for Sacred Time in the calendar included in the Gamemaster Pack, incorporated into a depiction of Ernalda. Vasana and Yanioth are preparing to sacrifice a pig in the foreground. Orlanth is also present in the depiction. 

So this is probably in Esrolia, and probably shows a devotional image of Etyries associated with Ernalda in a post-Lunar purge world. 

Not all red-skinned goddesses are Lunar, and in this case it definitely is not.

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9 minutes ago, svensson said:

But you can see how a visiting Sartarite might think so! 😁

I can see why a visitor might think so. Sartarites no doubt don't make the same mistakes as gamers and don't assume that every red-skinned thing is a Lunar.

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35 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I can see why a visitor might think so. Sartarites no doubt don't make the same mistakes as gamers and don't assume that every red-skinned thing is a Lunar.

Indeed, those foolish gamers, looking at the symbolic associations of the Communication Rune and the color red, particularly in conjunction with the color black, and the foregrounded Moon Rune, and the recumbent crescent inscribed within a circle in the background, and concluding that on the preponderance of evidence that this statue was probably at one point of Etyries, on the grounds that the image was a consciously constructed and designed artifact which was meant to be understandable by the viewer. Will they never cease in such asininity?

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

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4 hours ago, Eff said:

Indeed, those foolish gamers, looking at the symbolic associations of the Communication Rune and the color red, particularly in conjunction with the color black, and the foregrounded Moon Rune, and the recumbent crescent inscribed within a circle in the background, and concluding that on the preponderance of evidence that this statue was probably at one point of Etyries, on the grounds that the image was a consciously constructed and designed artifact which was meant to be understandable by the viewer. Will they never cease in such asininity?

I'm sorry but as the person who commissioned the art and wrote the art commission, I can tell you precisely what the piece is about.

This piece takes place inside of a temple to the Orlanthi gods. Vasana and Yanioth are offering libations of wine or blood and prayers to the cult images of Orlanth and Ernalda. Around are smaller idols of other Orlanthi gods.
 
Other worshipers (perhaps including Harmast and Sorala) can be seen with their arms raised in prayer.
Other cult idols
Smaller idols (between 10 and 20 cm tall) of lesser gods are also in the shrine. They include:
  • Babeester Gor. See attached reference. This statue is about 10 cm tall and made of bronze.
  • Maran Gor. See attached reference. This statue is about 20 cm tall and made of black stone.
  • Chalana Arroy. See attached reference. This statue is about 15 cm and made of terracotta that has been painted white.
  • Eurmal. See attached reference. This statue is about 10 cm tall and made of bronze.
  • Issaries. See attached reference. This statue is about 15 cm tall and made of teracotta and painted,
  • Lhankor Mhy. See attached reference. This statue is about 10 cm tall and made of terracotta and painted.

And so your red-skinned "goddess" is not Etyries, but is Issaries. My objection is that people need to get out of the idea that whenever they see something red, we must be indicating something Lunar. There are plenty of red-hued deities and spirits in Glorantha, just as there are plenty of blue, black, and green-hued ones. Not every green-skinned deity is an Earth deity after all.

Screenshot 2022-03-06 at 15.40.06.png

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2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I'm sorry but as the person who commissioned the art and wrote the art commission, I can tell you precisely what the piece is about.

This piece takes place inside of a temple to the Orlanthi gods. Vasana and Yanioth are offering libations of wine or blood and prayers to the cult images of Orlanth and Ernalda. Around are smaller idols of other Orlanthi gods.
 
Other worshipers (perhaps including Harmast and Sorala) can be seen with their arms raised in prayer.
Other cult idols
Smaller idols (between 10 and 20 cm tall) of lesser gods are also in the shrine. They include:
  • Babeester Gor. See attached reference. This statue is about 10 cm tall and made of bronze.
  • Maran Gor. See attached reference. This statue is about 20 cm tall and made of black stone.
  • Chalana Arroy. See attached reference. This statue is about 15 cm and made of terracotta that has been painted white.
  • Eurmal. See attached reference. This statue is about 10 cm tall and made of bronze.
  • Issaries. See attached reference. This statue is about 15 cm tall and made of teracotta and painted,
  • Lhankor Mhy. See attached reference. This statue is about 10 cm tall and made of terracotta and painted.

And so your red-skinned "goddess" is not Etyries, but is Issaries. My objection is that people need to get out of the idea that whenever they see something red, we must be indicating something Lunar. There are plenty of red-hued deities and spirits in Glorantha, just as there are plenty of blue, black, and green-hued ones. Not every green-skinned deity is an Earth deity after all.

Screenshot 2022-03-06 at 15.40.06.png

Okay. My objection is that passive-aggressively berating people for using the iconographic language that has been extant for Glorantha generally rather suggests that the ideal state of engagement with Glorantha is to never discuss it, because previously existing texts cannot be used to formulate interpretations of other texts without this being a kind of idiocy on the part of the interpreter, and the interpreter is thus to be hauled up for intended public humiliation.

Maybe there are some people who would find that appealing, of course. 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

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3 minutes ago, Eff said:

Okay. My objection is that passive-aggressively berating people for using the iconographic language that has been extant for Glorantha generally rather suggests that the ideal state of engagement with Glorantha is to never discuss it, because previously existing texts cannot be used to formulate interpretations of other texts without this being a kind of idiocy on the part of the interpreter, and the interpreter is thus to be hauled up for intended public humiliation.

Maybe there are some people who would find that appealing, of course. 

And my objection is that you jumped from a small minor art detail to "hey there is a red-skinned goddess in that scene in an Orlanth and Ernalda temple" to "that must be Etyries" to "this must be in Esrolia where they have incorporated Etyries into the Ernalda cult". Don't assume Red always equals Lunar. Red is also Shargash's color, Zorak Zoran's color, and also just an easy color for painting. Any more than you should always assume a blue-skinned figure is Orlanth or a green-skinned figure is Ernalda.

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9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And my objection is that you jumped from a small minor art detail to "hey there is a red-skinned goddess in that scene in an Orlanth and Ernalda temple" to "that must be Etyries" to "this must be in Esrolia where they have incorporated Etyries into the Ernalda cult". Don't assume Red always equals Lunar. Red is also Shargash's color, Zorak Zoran's color, and also just an easy color for painting. Any more than you should always assume a blue-skinned figure is Orlanth or a green-skinned figure is Ernalda.

You're putting words in my mouth, actually. I said that the statue had been incorporated. To the extent that I had any specific exegesis from this, my thought was "Ah, they're reusing things left over from the Hendira days", which to my mind is a fun visual motif. But I posted a simple observation, to allow people to have their own interpretations of said observation. 

I'm sorry I interpreted your commissioned artwork in a way you don't approve of, though. I shall do my best to avoid thinking about any of it in the future. 

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Jeff, I have to jump to Eff’s defence here. She is a wonderful lady with a hell of an imagination. It would be a shame to not let it blaze a little. 

My apologies for my testiness. 

To get things back to the original post - Etyries is not much of a cult in Esrolia. No doubt there are shrines and even temples to her, but that is for the benefit of visiting merchants from Peloria. She is recognized as Issaries' Lunar daughter, but few natives follow her. Her cult, the Seven Mothers, and plenty of others (like Calyx, Magasta, Invisible God, Eagle Vulture, etc) all fall into the category of Other Cults - which admittedly in Esrolia is a big number. But still Etyries is a rounding error, hidden inside the Issaries cult (who has over 45,000 worshipers in Esrolia!).

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20 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Etyries is stated as being a daughter of issaries and that she became curious about the Red Goddess went off to find her and ended up being the Lunar Empires premier Goddess of trade.

Etyries was a minor deity who was a counter of pots and beans, and was a sub-cult of Issaries back in the day.  In essence Etyries was a goddess of the Market Stall, but not a long distance trader deity like her father.  The Lunars changed that.

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