Nicochan Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 To my understanding, Trolls came to the Surface World in order to escape the light of Yelm when he was killed (Lesser Darkness). To my understanding, Hell and the Underworld are almost the same thing, or one is a part of the other. To my understanding, there are many ways to reach the Underworld or Hell: various Heroquests, some hidden stairs, cracks in the earth, etc.. 1st question: why do Trolls stay in the Surface world? Don't they want/desire to go back in their Underworld? 2nd question: is the identification Hell=Underworld just a human (or even Orlanthi) semplification? I mean, if trolls are from there, I suppose their Hell is somewhere else.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreJarosch Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 (edited) 1. The Underworld is not what it used to be: After Yelm got slain the Sun was in the Underworld and the surface world was dark. So the trolls fled Wonderhome (their part of the Underworld) to esape being burnt by the sun. On the surface world they found that most creatures are inferior to them (Mistress Race trolls) and so the surface world had plenty of good food to offer. After Olanths Lighbringers Quest the Sun was not brought back to the surface world but is half the time on the surface world and half of the time in the underworld. If there is no difference if you are on the surface world or in the underworld regarding enduring the sun, then why the hell should the trolls move back to the underworld where less yummy food is around? INSIDE the world (above the underworld, but below the surcace word) is the troll "paradies", which can be reached via the Castle of Lead, and by other means. But there STILL is more yummy food on the surface world. Edited March 28, 2022 by AndreJarosch 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRE Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 I fully agree, except that for a dark troll, a belly full of delicious food is paradise, so that trumps anything else. As they are immune to cold, and have a different attitude to risk, Troll's Maslow pyramid, IMO, would look something like: 1. Food 2. Momma's love 3. Community/partners 4. Shelter 5. Safety Religion would be part in Momma's love, part in Community, and probably more important for them than most humans. The sun protection I would put in 4, though probably higher priority for a Mistress troll, who joins Community with Momma, and has ambitions and self-realization beyond most of the dark trolls. . 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted March 15, 2022 Share Posted March 15, 2022 6 hours ago, Nicochan said: To my understanding, Hell and the Underworld are almost the same thing, or one is a part of the other. Hell is that part of the Underworld that is beyond the River Styx, I believe. 6 hours ago, Nicochan said: 1st question: why do Trolls stay in the Surface world? Don't they want/desire to go back in their Underworld? Because it is magical and powerful and trolls are generally neither. Because Argan Argar has allowed trolls to live on the surface world. Mistress race Trolls often already live in the Underworld, beneath the Castles of Lead, for example. 7 hours ago, Nicochan said: 2nd question: is the identification Hell=Underworld just a human (or even Orlanthi) semplification? I mean, if trolls are from there, I suppose their Hell is somewhere else.. Hell is not a place of punishment, it is just a place. Trolls have their place of punishment in the Sky, where bad trolls burn all day and all night. 1 1 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 My question - what happens to Trolls when they die? Does death just mean they have to stay in the underworld for a while, or can they come and go pretty much as before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRE Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 I tend to follow the Discworld. You get the afterlife you think you merit. That said, many cultures believe in reincarnation and/or a Judge of the Dead, so you may think you are good and the judge prove you are mistaken, and you end up somewhere else. That also means that, unless captured somehow, malkioni souls disappear, but it is not clear whether they disperse or reach Solace. Except for Saints that remain as bridges for others / find a place in Godtime. So trolls that believe they will be punished will go to a troll punishment place that is not in the underworld, while most will go to still dark portions of wonderhome, and then either wait to return to the hurtplace, or stay there till needed. Zorak zorani will join the hell legions and wait till they are called, served by those souls they have enslaved, in Zorak Zoran's portion of Hell. Strong heroes may escape this, usually because they have pending tasks, but most will be content in the dark. Many dark trolls hope they did well enough to be reborn as a female, or even better, a female Mistress troll. Trolkin, if educated enough, dream of returning as a dark troll. The problem is that there are many more troll dead spirits than living ones, so the wait is long. Arkat kingtroll devotees will depend on their true beliefs, and degree of illumination. If they are more troll, or more arkati. I consider that the arkati that appear in old works act as guardians of myths are actually dead arkati still doing their part for Arkat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 5 hours ago, EricW said: My question - what happens to Trolls when they die? They go to Wonderhome, where they can eat all night without having to stop. 5 hours ago, EricW said: Does death just mean they have to stay in the underworld for a while, or can they come and go pretty much as before? They are reborn as new trolls, eventually. However, as descendants of Grandfather Mortal, all trolls must stay in the Underworld after death. 2 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 I think that Hell is very subjective. To most humans, the Troll Wonderhome/heaven is a hell. Human Darkness worshippers however might be less intimidated by it and feel that it's pretty OK, if not quite heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 Reasons why: 1. Yelm occupies Wonderhome [Uz Hell] half the day every day. This makes Uz VERY uncomfortable. 2. Food. The Mundane World is much more verdant and has much more variety in food. 3. Vengeance. The races and cults that offend the Uz most are in the Mundane World. 4. Hope. Subere and Kyger Litor wait in the comforting Darkness to welcome Uz spirits home. They know they'll go back one day. Hell definition: 1. Hell is identified as a place of spiritual torment after Death. Uz Hell, being totally dark, with no kin awaiting them, and eternally harassed by Dehori spirits and Uz souls could pretty much qualify as a Hell for any Human culture, not just Orlanthi. 2. Insofar as Uz and Hell are concerned, and this is just my opinion, after Curse of Kin and so many Uz souls being stunted into trollkin, a given full Uz would have to do something pretty egregious to be denied Kyger Litor's embrace after Death [like betraying your family to the Mostali... THAT bad]. Perhaps those who violate Uzdom to such a level are cast out into the Void to be annihilated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 21 hours ago, svensson said: Hell is identified (...) that is a good point but is it right ? what is hell ? the punishment place for bad guys OR the full place for everybody once dead. I believe the gloranthan hell is like the greek hells ( tartarus + asphodel meadows + mourning fields + elysium). in all cases the dead are outside of the [arachne solara time] yes I dislike to use time as there are so many time(s) (god time, etc...). then a good troll will go to the wonderhome "before" yelm's death a bad troll will go, for ever to the no more wonder home "after" yelm's death. a very bad troll will go, for ever to the no more wonder home only when Yelm is dead in the same way that a good Orlanthi will go to the king's hall when a bad orlanthi will go hum... don't know, probably anywhere except in the king's hall ! a good Yelmite will go to the celestial palace when a bad one will go... in the hell when Yelm is dead ? and a very bad Yelmite will be hunted in the wonderhome, where is our good troll ? am I wrong ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Well, there are better and worse locations in the Hells. 'Good' worshipers go to the place of rest, where they reside with their ancestors and are at peace. 'Bad' worshipers go to a place where they are tormented by their sins. Both places depend on the cult and traditions of soul in question. And both qualify for the word 'Hell'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 On 3/16/2022 at 9:06 AM, JRE said: I tend to follow the Discworld. You get the afterlife you think you merit. The multipartite soul and (in addition?) your spirit allow the individual to go to multiple places after Death. If having multiple initiations, there are multiple pre-paid afterlife gods' realms, too, where the pre-dedicated portions of the soul rest, possibly surpassing the usual cultural number of souls. Troll default afterlife may be as part of the Hellmother, until spawned again to lead a mortal life. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 I can't speak for most of the troll cults, but from what I've read Argan Argar has a great mansion in Hell that his worshipers head towards after facing the Judge of the Dead, and at the close of each day they emerge with Argan Argar and Xentha to dance the night across the face of the world. The Only Old One is supposed to have his own manse beside it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 My understanding was that "Hell" is one of those words in Glorantha that sounds like it SHOULD be fairly specific, but which is really more descriptive. A bit like "Demon". A "demon" isn't a specific type of entity, just really any given hostile spiritual entity from your culture's point of view. By comparison, my take would be that "Hell" would be any given Underworld/Otherworld location that your culture deems disagreeable. I'm sure there are "hells" on the Red Moon, for example. That being said, there might be a general consensus that capital-H "Hell" is basically just a synonym for the old Uz Wonderhome, which is why you have Uz referring to some of their number as "Hellmothers" and the like: they've adopted the term because it's useful when speaking with non-Uz as a form of exonym. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted March 28, 2022 Share Posted March 28, 2022 On 3/15/2022 at 10:57 PM, Nicochan said: 1st question: why do Trolls stay in the Surface world? Don't they want/desire to go back in their Underworld? They stay for the variety of food primarily. Plus Yelm still goes to the Underworld every day (or do I mean night?). Plus they have a stake in overworld politics these days and don't want things getting worse than the debacle that sent them up from the underworld in the first place. Plus they like trolling the other races. On 3/15/2022 at 10:57 PM, Nicochan said: 2nd question: is the identification Hell=Underworld just a human (or even Orlanthi) simplification? I mean, if trolls are from there, I suppose their Hell is somewhere else.. Nope. Wonderhome is in the Underworld in the deepy deepest darkest place, perhaps even under the underworld or even inside Subere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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