Does Path Watch work at sea?

[Godlearner]

Now the spell says "It must be laid upon a known path or visible road to be traveled on by the caster." 

Would a Sea-route counts? Sure, the caster would have to stay awake and its only 100 meters radius, but would it work? 

[jajagappa]

34 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Now the spell says "It must be laid upon a known path or visible road to be traveled on by the caster." 

Would a Sea-route counts? Sure, the caster would have to stay awake and its only 100 meters radius, but would it work? 

I'd allow it, but perhaps make a penalty on the casting attempt (or have to overcome some natural resistance from Water).  The other question is whether the radius extends downward??

[AndreJarosch]

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'd allow it, but perhaps make a penalty on the casting attempt (or have to overcome some natural resistance from Water).  The other question is whether the radius extends downward??

Does Patch Watch on land extrends upward?
If yes: It should also extend downward. 

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Does Patch Watch on land extrends upward?
If yes: It should also extend downward. 

 "100 meters radius" I would say it implies sphere. 

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

but perhaps make a penalty on the casting attempt (or have to overcome some natural resistance from Water

Why?

[AndreJarosch]

6 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

 "100 meters radius" I would say it implies sphere. 

I am aware that it is also in use with SPHERES, but most people will use it when talking about CIRCLES. 

I don´t know if the original writers of the spell had circles or also spheres in mind when they created the Rath Watch spell. 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Why?

Show me the path... where is it "visible"?

The Water moves the path, or moves you relative to it, and whether you stay within the path is a question.  The path is "known" in the sense that I cross this water bearing towards some destination (either visible or based upon the position of sun or stars) then I can watch the path.  But the Waters can pull you "off" the path, without you being aware, and effectively void the conditions for the spell.

[Godlearner]

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The path is "known" in the sense that I cross this water bearing towards some destination (either visible or based upon the position of sun or stars) then I can watch the path.

The path is a route. It's marked by currents and water depth as well as landmarks when close enough to land or floating debris same as any route.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

The path is a route.

Yes, and as I previously said, I'd allow it. 

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

when close enough to land or floating debris

Largely my point, once away from landmarks, are you still on "the path"?  If it is immaterial to the story, then yes you stay on it.  And if of interest, then those capricious sea-beings can use their skills to lure you off it and catch you by surprise.

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

I am aware that it is also in use with SPHERES, but most people will use it when talking about CIRCLES. 

I don´t know if the original writers of the spell had circles or also spheres in mind when they created the Rath Watch spell. 

Maybe they just ballsed up?

or... 2D or not 2D - that is the question!

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

The path is a route. It's marked by currents and water depth as well as landmarks when close enough to land or floating debris same as any route.

I was about to write something that would clearly cast doubt on this - then I thought about very wide roads.... how wide is permitted? I would presume, as wide as has been made...

It's quite rare for a ship in open water to follow exactly within the same relative 'path' (as in, a line), but does go via a very specific route (hence, the OP question). Ships could easily veer hundreds or even thousands of metres "off course", while still remaining on the same general path. Tides would seriously affect this, as well as the aforementioned weather (eg, storms).

If one leaves Nochet and heads south-east to the gap of the Troll Straits, how far are they allowed to veer off the straight line? 50m? 100m? 500m? What if they know that sometimes you go straight, and other times you need to swerve more - and you know that for this time you go straight... is it the same path?

I'd probably..... make it a Shiphandling roll, with weather modifiers. The first roll needs to be by the caster (because they can't effectively cast the spell without knowing the actual path), and then regular rolls from the pilot.

But then - I'm more simulationist.... I'm sure many other GMs would just handwave.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I have no idea (or too many). Shouldn't this be asqued in the Q&A topic ?

my first answer was "of course not"

then "why not" then... "of course not downward". but what about a griffin attacking a group on a esrolian road from the sky ? so "of course yes"

at the end, if there is no official answer... MGF:

so yes it detects, and depending on what the GM wants... If the GM wants pc to be prepared, it is as usual, if not put fast ennemies... 100 meters with mobility 10 = "ding ding you feel an ambush, oups, it is done" (that works on air as under water)

 

water is monstruous after all (yes irl I fear water)

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Now the spell says "It must be laid upon a known path or visible road to be traveled on by the caster." 

Would a Sea-route counts? Sure, the caster would have to stay awake and its only 100 meters radius, but would it work? 

The use you envisage for Path Watch would have made it able to avoid many effects of the Closing of the Oceans, so no, it doesn't work on bodies of water.  Water is not known for maintaining paths.  Trade routes at sea are not "paths" as the vessels following them normally veer off-course by many miles, and as you can never enter the same river twice, how much less is that possible on an ocean?

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Now the spell says "It must be laid upon a known path or visible road to be traveled on by the caster." 

Would a Sea-route counts? Sure, the caster would have to stay awake and its only 100 meters radius, but would it work? 

Of course per MGF. As it's a uniquely Issaries Rune spell, there are likely many seafaring traders. RBM page 2 tells us It also synthesized different spells with near-identical effects into a common spell with a descriptive name, so there are likely four versions:

• Pathwatch - vanilla land version
• Riverwatch - for rivers and lakes
• Coastwatch - for those using coastal trading (keeping land in sight, see Trade Routes of Glorantha, GtG 469)
• Seawatch - for those out of sight of land, but travelling a known paths (See Trade Routes of Glorantha, GtG 469)

They all work the same.

[Godlearner]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

The use you envisage for Path Watch would have made it able to avoid many effects of the Closing of the Oceans, so no, it doesn't work on bodies of water. 

Not at all. Being aware of danger, does not mean you can avoid it or survive it. Here comes a monster wave. Its 100 meters away .... Start praying.

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

As it's a uniquely Issaries Rune spell, there are likely many seafaring traders.

As it was pointed out to me on Facebook: " maritime trading is only forty years old. If there were nautical trader subcults, they are centuries dead, having no purpose during the centuries of the Closing. "   It would seem these would then be spirit cults and possibly accessed through Ancestor Worship. Good basis for Merchant Guilds.

[g33k]

19 hours ago, Godlearner said:

... As it was pointed out to me on Facebook: " maritime trading is only forty years old. If there were nautical trader subcults, they are centuries dead, having no purpose during the centuries of the Closing. "   It would seem these would then be spirit cults and possibly accessed through Ancestor Worship. Good basis for Merchant Guilds.

"That is not dead which can eternal lie..." ... uhhh ... 
Oh, wait.  Wrong setting, wrong quote.  Sorry!

But, I will note that 40 years would seem ample time for an Issaries runelevel to heroquest & restore an earlier (historically-attested) nautical trader subcult.

It might even be as easy as a variant Issaries worship-service (from their archives) with a 1-point POW sac to the relevant son/daughter/boon-companion/etc of Issaries.

Or, sure, do it as a spirit-cult.

Whatever seems like MGF !

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, Godlearner said:

As it was pointed out to me on Facebook: " maritime trading is only forty years old. If there were nautical trader subcults, they are centuries dead, having no purpose during the centuries of the Closing. "   It would seem these would then be spirit cults and possibly accessed through Ancestor Worship. Good basis for Merchant Guilds.

The Issaries temple wouldn't remove the images of those who head up the sub/hero cult. Temples are usually adorned with old images and icons. As soon as the seas opened traders would be the first out of the gates, 40 years is ample time to reestablish a sea trader cult, I'd argue a year at most.

[Godlearner]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Issaries temple wouldn't remove the images of those who head up the sub/hero cult. Temples are usually adorned with old images and icons. As soon as the seas opened traders would be the first out of the gates, 40 years is ample time to reestablish a sea trader cult, I'd argue a year at most.

I would have to disagree with that. The Closing lasted from 930 to 1580. That is a lot of time to do some major clean up in the temples. People would be lucky to remember the names at all.

[David Scott]

22 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I would have to disagree with that. The Closing lasted from 930 to 1580. That is a lot of time to do some major clean up in the temples.

Thats only 650 years, as an equivalent, we've still (UK) churches from the 1350s and earlier with chapels and shrines from ye olde times. My local church dates from 1300s and is full of old inscriptions, burials plaques etc. They don't throw anything away. I hear in places such as Egypt that there are even older sites, covered in religious stuff that no one cleared out.

22 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

People would be lucky to remember the names at all.

In a world of magic, Divination means that no one is usually forgotten. Issaries, who will bless my journey up the coast and keep me safe...

[Godlearner]

54 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Thats only 650 years, as an equivalent, we've still (UK) churches from the 1350s and earlier with chapels and shrines from ye olde times. My local church dates from 1300s and is full of old inscriptions, burials plaques etc. They don't throw anything away. I hear in places such as Egypt that there are even older sites, covered in religious stuff that no one cleared out.

Yes, but that is the major religion. A more correct comparison would be a patron saint of making tools out of flint, or anything else that is no longer done. There is no longer a reason to offer worship to this entity. The name may still be in the myth, and could be brought back, but most worshipers have no idea that it even existed.

[soltakss]

38 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yes, but that is the major religion. A more correct comparison would be a patron saint of making tools out of flint, or anything else that is no longer done. There is no longer a reason to offer worship to this entity. The name may still be in the myth, and could be brought back, but most worshipers have no idea that it even existed.

The P&BR Companion Series did something similar in the Big Rubble. Many minor cults were forgotten, until their shrines were rediscovered and worship was re-established.

Dormal himself did this by contacting some lost Spirits and learning their secrets, allowing him to sail the seas.

I would expect that some cults would be quickly re-established, in particular those that Dormal had contacted. Others might take longer, especially if their knowledge was actively suppressed after the Closing. But, no doubt, there will be some shrines that remember the names and secretly worship them.

[Darius West]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:06 AM, Godlearner said:

Not at all. Being aware of danger, does not mean you can avoid it or survive it. Here comes a monster wave. Its 100 meters away .... Start praying.

Okay, the minute you turn on Path Watch, the whole ocean lights up as an inimical threat to your existence because of the Closing.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Okay, the minute you turn on Path Watch, the whole ocean lights up as an inimical threat to your existence because of the Closing.

Please, and like casting a Path Watch on a Hero Quest any better? Or walking around in Dorastor?

[Lordabdul]

23 hours ago, Godlearner said:

The name may still be in the myth, and could be brought back, but most worshipers have no idea that it even existed.

Sounds like you have a great basis for an adventure that involves the PCs helping some Issaries people do some research by hunting down old documents and artifacts, heroquesting into seafaring myths to gain more understanding of the old ways, and so on. In fact, you could have "the butter and the money for the butter" (as we say in French) by simply declaring that in your Glorantha the Issaries cult partially recovered their Second Age knowledge and magics, but still need help recovering some bits.

Edited April 11, 2022 by lordabdul

[7Tigers]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Okay, the minute you turn on Path Watch, the whole ocean lights up as an inimical threat to your existence because of the Closing.

Nice effect, but post Dragonrise and Boat Planet return, no more Closing...