Troll/Darkness cult for "Stealth" & "Secrecy" &c ?

[g33k]

I've got a few candidates...

Obviously,  is already "stealthy" & the holder of many secrets; but I am looking for some Cult(s) where this is actually a key facet of the Cult, rather than general for the Rune.

First up -- Anilla.  The "Blue Moon Trolls" give us a link into Troll'dom at least (though perhaps not the general "Darkness" I was hoping for -- it's mainly  not  of course!).  But the Blue Moon is just all kinds of stealthy!

Next -- Zorak Zoran.  While the stereotype is uber-Berzerker (Stormbull on steroids)... sneaking and stealthing, spying, ambush &c are all key elements of ZZ's mythos.  I might possibly IMG invent a stealth-centric subcult (unless one already exists, that I haven't met?  But doesn't seem to be in Trollpak).

Then there is -- Subere.  She's the "Inner Darkness," kind of mystical, kind of... extra-hidden, even moreso than Darkness usually is.  So... maybe?  Or maybe I just don't understand her...

Finally -- the big mama, Kyger Litor herself.  As the main deity for , she encompasses all aspects thereof, including stealth & secrets &c.  It's just a matter of how you specialize a character.

Have I overlooked anything?

Thanks in advance for any & all assistance!

[AndrewTBP]

Zong the Hunter 

[Godlearner]

Argan Argar (Darkwalk)

[svensson]

Well, since Uz warfare relies heavily on night-fighting, and by extension stealth, the KL subcult of Karrg.

The Uz don't have a deity of thievery in the human sneaky sense, but my take on it is Annilla for secrets, Zong for stealth-as-a-skill, and Karrg for stealth-in-warfare.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Argan Argar (Darkwalk)

It would seem to me that Zong or Karrg ought to have that spell too, but no cult has 100% access to all the powers.

[Godlearner]

13 minutes ago, svensson said:

since Uz warfare relies heavily on night-fighting, and by extension stealth,

Stealth is not Uz forte. They fight at night, not because it gives them an advantage, which it does, but because that is because they hate the light. They learned stealth when they can to the surface, it is not natural to them. That is why it is the Surface Gods the Uz worship which have stealth type spell such as Xentha, Argan Argar and Zong. 

[svensson]

23 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Stealth is not Uz forte. They fight at night, not because it gives them an advantage, which it does, but because that is because they hate the light. They learned stealth when they can to the surface, it is not natural to them. That is why it is the Surface Gods the Uz worship which have stealth type spell such as Xentha, Argan Argar and Zong. 

I'm not entirely certain about what you're getting at, GL.

Just because it's a learned behavior doesn't mean that they're not happy to take all the advantage out of it they can. The general method of Uz warfare is to sneak as close to the target as they can and pummel the enemy with sling stones as they feed trollkin into the melee. Once the enemy has been softened up, they charge in to finish them off.  This tactic is just taking advantage of their Rune abilities, the same as Orlanthi flying or using lightning or passing messages with Wind Words.

It doesn't matter that these behaviors and tactics were learned on the surface, as the exile from Wonderhome happened in the God Time. The mythological reasons for stealth are there.

[Godlearner]

35 minutes ago, svensson said:

It doesn't matter that these behaviors and tactics were learned on the surface, as the exile from Wonderhome happened in the God Time. The mythological reasons for stealth are there.

What I am saying is that Stealth is the domain of the newer Troll deities. 

[svensson]

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

What I am saying is that Stealth is the domain of the newer Troll deities. 

Thanks.

Where I'm at with that is that it's still both within the God Time and before I Fought We Won... so mythically speaking stealth spells are appropriate.

But this could be a case of you and I saying the same thing a different way.

[JRE]

I agree with both. Traditional Uz tactics were not stealth as such but blinding and confusing their opponents, either directly or through dehori and shades. As they met more sophisticated or stronger opponents, stealth became important, but it only became general after the trolkin curse. For trolkin their only way to survive long, both strangers and other trolls, is stealth. I think the trolkin curse (well within history) shattered the trolls typical tactics, as they no longer could go maul to sword against their enemies, as attrition was unbearable when you cannot replace your losses. The impact is not only having a bunch of weaklings, but that they have much less magic available, less leaders, less respect. 

Trolls came to the surface as conquerers, and they were among the strongest factions till Nysalor cursed them. That is for me the turning point, both to make use of the trolkin hordes and because they could not use the overwhelming tactics from the past.

[jajagappa]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

Obviously,  is already "stealthy" & the holder of many secrets; but I am looking for some Cult(s) where this is actually a key facet of the Cult, rather than general for the Rune.

Xentha, Goddess of Night is another, though on the surface world, her son Argan Argar would be preferred.

17 hours ago, g33k said:

Then there is -- Subere.  She's the "Inner Darkness," kind of mystical, kind of... extra-hidden, even moreso than Darkness usually is.  So... maybe?  Or maybe I just don't understand her...

No one understands Subere!  She is the deepest Darkness and holds all the secrets and terrors and monsters of the Dark.  She might contain such but goes far beyond that. 

[svensson]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

I agree with both. Traditional Uz tactics were not stealth as such but blinding and confusing their opponents, either directly or through dehori and shades. As they met more sophisticated or stronger opponents, stealth became important, but it only became general after the trolkin curse. For trolkin their only way to survive long, both strangers and other trolls, is stealth. I think the trolkin curse (well within history) shattered the trolls typical tactics, as they no longer could go maul to sword against their enemies, as attrition was unbearable when you cannot replace your losses. The impact is not only having a bunch of weaklings, but that they have much less magic available, less leaders, less respect. 

Trolls came to the surface as conquerers, and they were among the strongest factions till Nysalor cursed them. That is for me the turning point, both to make use of the trolkin hordes and because they could not use the overwhelming tactics from the past.

Even 'now' most humans and ALL Aldryami think twice and maybe three times before they muck about with a pissed off Uz, no matter how well trained they are. Between the extra HP they have and the extra damage they do, they can make mincemeat [literally!] out of any human below the training of a thane. And the thane will want some equally trained friends to come with him! The only race that isn't uneasy around Uz are Iron Dwarfs, and there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, svensson said:

The only race that isn't uneasy around Uz are Iron Dwarfs, and there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.

But they're happy to hire humans to do their work for them - and even "loan" out some iron to get the task done.

[JRE]

I agree that the traditional Zorak Zorani tactics represent how things were before the Curse, when you had hordes of dark troll warriors and could beat one on one almost any other. But those hordes do not exist anymore. 

The high magical value of females makes magic in offensive operations weak, while they remain very strong in defence of their territory.

As far as I know the only significant territory expansion after the Curse was Guhan, and it was a gift from Arkat's Dark Empire. They have resisted but they are unable to expand. 

Returning to the original question, Argan Argar is the only cult that tries to get some combat value out of trolkin, and that is why they are also very sneaky compared to other troll or trader cults. The combo Create Shadow and Darkwalk is difficult to beat as stealth goes, and also quite overpowered in combat.

 

[g33k]

23 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Stealth is not Uz forte. They fight at night, not because it gives them an advantage, which it does, but because that is because they hate the light. They learned stealth when they can to the surface, it is not natural to them. That is why it is the Surface Gods the Uz worship which have stealth type spell such as Xentha, Argan Argar and Zong. 

From Trollpak (Classic ed, p.6):

Quote

The Silent Stalker
Curious and strong, he[ed: Zorak Zoran] often explored the unknown parts of the underworld. Cautious, he often secretly stalked the things he found moving about there.
One day he sighted Eurmal and Humakt, two foreign gods, being led through the infernal regions by Vivamort, another darkness spirit. Zorak Zoran stalked them and saw when they discovered their objective, a tantalizing and frightening power never before imagined.
Zorak Zoran followed the gods and spied upon them as they approached Grandfather Mortal, who fell to the new power and named it Death. Then he saw Eurmal exchange the weapon for a replica which worked for Humakt, and Orlanth used Death to slay Emperor Yelm. When the world grew darker, Zorak Zoran grew
more confident. The weapon, Death, passed among many hands and spread its waste throughout the world. At last Zorak Zoran saw his opportunity and seized the magical blade.

This shows ZZ running very strongly to stealth; the entire section is titled "The Silent Stalker" -- and it's Godtime events!

The "fearsome straightforward combatant" is really only a part of the Uz thing.

There is a genuine component of stealth, of secrecy, of spying, etc; it IS "natural for them."  Even for berzerk ZZ!

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by g33k
I may be talking myself into a custom myGMV subcult of ZZ, here ...

[JustAnotherVingan]

Hide is 1 of the skills a ZZ cultist can use to qualify for Death Lord status.

[g33k]

23 hours ago, svensson said:

... but my take on it is Annilla for secrets...

Annilla is never cited (by name) in Trollpak; the "Blue Moon Cult" gets mentions-only, but is never defined in any way (there are a couple of Blue Moon NPC's the PCs might encounter).

I think she's in the RQ3 "Troll Gods" book, but I don't have that.  😢   I need to track down my gone-missing copy of Cult Compendium to see if she's there...  or wait impatiently for @Jeff(or whoever over there is doing the remaining bits) to finish with the "new Cults book" project and get it up for sale.  😖

But AFAIK the Annilla / Blue Moon Cult is specific to Uz from the Blue Moon Plateau; worship has not spread.  The Blue Moon Plateau itself is also minimally-handled in Trollpak; there's the mini-history (and story of Bina Bang) on pp 31-32, but really that's all about BMP interactions with other places, not "about" the BMP itself; and (again) just a few other one-off mentions scattered around.


Meanwhile...  I  observe the fact  of there being -allied Trolls, but I don't much  understand  how/why any clade of "Dark Men" are so closely linked to another Elemental Rune (the natural/obvious Element to me (if any!) would be Trolls -- there are    pairings amply attested in canon!).
 

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

13 minutes ago, g33k said:

Meanwhile...  I  observe the fact  of there being -allied Trolls, but I don't much  understand  how/why any clade of "Dark Men" are so closely linked to another Elemental Rune (the natural/obvious Element to me (if any!) would be Trolls -- there are    pairings amply attested in canon!).

Careful study has revealed that the Moon rune is actually a condition rune.  Or is it a form rune?  Anyway, classifying it as an element is pure lunar propaganda!

[g33k]

21 minutes ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Careful study has revealed that the Moon rune is actually a condition rune.  Or is it a form rune?  Anyway, classifying it as an element is pure lunar propaganda!

I suspect it's cyclic.
Sometimes the Moon Rune is one thing, sometimes it's another ...

[jajagappa]

48 minutes ago, g33k said:

Annilla is never cited (by name) in Trollpak; the "Blue Moon Cult" gets mentions-only, but is never defined in any way (there are a couple of Blue Moon NPC's the PCs might encounter).

She is in Troll Gods.  She is not in the Cult Compendium.

52 minutes ago, g33k said:

But AFAIK the Annilla / Blue Moon Cult is specific to Uz from the Blue Moon Plateau; worship has not spread.

Yes, this is the center in Genertela (and for trolls).  There are humans in Pamaltela that worship her.

For special Rune spells she gets Invisibility, Absorption, Summon/Dismiss Selene and Vision. 

56 minutes ago, g33k said:

Meanwhile...  I  observe the fact  of there being -allied Trolls, but I don't much  understand  how/why any clade of "Dark Men" are so closely linked to another Elemental Rune (the natural/obvious Element to me

Annilla gets three elements: Moon, Darkness, and Water.  Trolls found the Blue Moon Plateau hospitable to them (and not to others), and worshiped her, gaining her magics.  This is the ultimate stealth cult.

 

[Jeff]

On 4/17/2022 at 11:54 AM, g33k said:

I've got a few candidates...

Obviously,  is already "stealthy" & the holder of many secrets; but I am looking for some Cult(s) where this is actually a key facet of the Cult, rather than general for the Rune.

First up -- Anilla.  The "Blue Moon Trolls" give us a link into Troll'dom at least (though perhaps not the general "Darkness" I was hoping for -- it's mainly  not  of course!).  But the Blue Moon is just all kinds of stealthy!

Next -- Zorak Zoran.  While the stereotype is uber-Berzerker (Stormbull on steroids)... sneaking and stealthing, spying, ambush &c are all key elements of ZZ's mythos.  I might possibly IMG invent a stealth-centric subcult (unless one already exists, that I haven't met?  But doesn't seem to be in Trollpak).

Then there is -- Subere.  She's the "Inner Darkness," kind of mystical, kind of... extra-hidden, even moreso than Darkness usually is.  So... maybe?  Or maybe I just don't understand her...

Finally -- the big mama, Kyger Litor herself.  As the main deity for , she encompasses all aspects thereof, including stealth & secrets &c.  It's just a matter of how you specialize a character.

Have I overlooked anything?

Thanks in advance for any & all assistance!

Annilla is your best bet. She even has the spell Invisibility.

[davecake]

Annilla is the most obvious choice. And is known for assassins and obsessed with secrets. But restricted to an unusual small minority of trolls - I think the median number of Annilla cultists in a given troll settlement is none. So unless your troll is very weird (fine for a PC of course), probably only for trolls from the Blue Moon Plateau area. 

Argan Argar has the most appropriate magic otherwise. Dark Walk is nearly as good as Invisibility (and much cheaper, 1 rp vs 3), and they have several other Darkness spells that help with sneakery (though admittedly most aren’t very useful against other trolls, except for permitting Dark Walk). Though the cult doesn’t seem to particularly specialise in stealthiness as a social role (its known more for trading and warrior roles than scouting or stealing etc), it’s a very good and widespread cult for those trolls that do want to be sneaky. 

Xentha is the mother of Argan Argar, though, and the cult seems to value stealth skills and teaches them at half price, and stealth and sneaking appears to be a major focus of cult members. It has no specific stealth magic - except it does get Dark Walk from Argan Argar, which is all they need really. So might be the best choice for a sneaking specialist - except in most places it seems to hardly exist as anything except an associated cult of Argan Argar. Still, that might be all your troll sneak specialist needs - stealth skills, Dark Walk, and a bit of other darkness magic, gets you a long way. 

Almost all trolls, and definitely ZZ and KL, as people have noted, enjoy an ambush now and then, but it doesn’t seem to be something they have much magic to support (Darkwall can be handy, though). Though Lead armour means they are better at it than most humans though. And both cults recognise the value of stealth skills by recognising some as a possible qualification for Rune Lord, but ZZ also teaches it to initiates, and appears very enthusiastic about ambushing. I don’t think the cult cares about it beyond combat uses for ambushes and scouting, though. 

14 hours ago, JRE said:

Argan Argar is the only cult that tries to get some combat value out of trolkin, and that is why they are also very sneaky

ZZ is very keen on getting combat value out of its trollkin, but sometimes as little more than ablative shielding. Though a bunch of trollkin slingers behind Darkwall is handy, and keeps their foes pinned down until the warriors are on top of them. AA is the only cult that thinks trollkin have anything to offer in hand to hand, though. 
 

10 hours ago, g33k said:

There is a genuine component of stealth, of secrecy, of spying, etc; it IS "natural for them."  Even for berzerk ZZ!

I doubt that they make use of stealth while actually Berserk, but the best time to go Berserk is from ambush when you are already almost on top of the enemy. Helps minimise the advantage most traditional troll enemies have in missile combat. Pity about those annoying Humakti though - Sense Ambush is another reason to hate them. 

Subere is more a cult for those who want to summon scary underworld monsters and spirits. It pretty much is uninterested in non-magical/ritual abilities.

 

[Shiningbrow]

22 hours ago, svensson said:

The only race that isn't uneasy around Uz are Iron Dwarfs, and there aren't nearly enough of those to go around.

Minotaurs...

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Minotaurs...

Same thing. Not a lot of Minotaurs to go round... and even fewer who want to tangle with Uz for no reason.

[dumuzid]

16 hours ago, g33k said:

Meanwhile...  I  observe the fact  of there being -allied Trolls, but I don't much  understand  how/why any clade of "Dark Men" are so closely linked to another Elemental Rune (the natural/obvious Element to me (if any!) would be Trolls -- there are    pairings amply attested in canon!).

The Blue Moon Trolls found the goddess dead on the ground in the great God Time migrations, and worshipped her back into power, much like other trolls did on the other side of Genertela with Basko, the Black Sun.  Depending on who you ask the Blue Moon is the child of Darkness and Water, so trolls connecting to her was never so far of a mythical leap.