Which is the *worst* cult?

[icebrand]

Whoa, you are using a bunch of really difficult words, and i can't seem to follow you. Please help me understand (im dumb and not a native speaker).

So, what do you even mean here???

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Yeah, it's a shift from the kind of understandings of mythology as a psychosocial phenomenon that someone like Eliade or Levi-Strauss would have written in the 50s through 70s to somethin more directly Jungian.

1- who is Eliade?

2- what is a psychosocial phenomenon and what's it's relationship to levy-strauss structuralist theory of myth?

3- i'm not a psychologist and i have no idea about Jung & myths (i only know about collective unconscious and ideas being instinctual as a result of human Nature)? What would be "something more jungian"?

Like i'm probably stupid or something but what are you even talking about???

[Beoferret]

14 hours ago, Ludovic aka Lordabdul said:

....And yeah despite this I still think Yelmalio should have some sort of resilience/tough-it-out spell ...

Inspiration! A Rune spell (let's call it Hold Ground) that provides: a) a bonus to resist knockback effects, and b) a bonus to parrying (and parrying only) attempts. Give it an Rune point cost and a magic point cost, with each magic point spent equaling a person benefiting from the spell. Maybe have it provide some sort of other bonus to forming a phalanx. Anyhow, there's another way that a Yelmalian can provide some utility to an adventuring party, while staying true to their soldierly roots.

 

[JRE]

1 minute ago, Ludovic aka Lordabdul said:

I think that spike on the other end is also to drive the pike in the ground when facing cavalry, no?

There are differing opinions on this, as the surviving instructions for pikemen do not include setting the pikes in that way, and it increases the risk of breakage, both by enemies impaling themselves and by deliberate attacks on the wooden hafts. It could help to keep the pikes up while stationary, and we know how much waiting there is in a soldier's life, and that both halves of the sarissa have some combat potential. Finally, if it breaks, the back part is the portion you will keep in hand, so you still have a weapon that is useful in a close formation, even if it is short. 

[JRE]

In the same way the benefits of Waha are mainly social rather than magical, and let's not forget Prax is a magic poor zone in Glorantha, I would say the benefits of Yelmalio are social and also communal magic.

Social in that you have a male sky cult that, despite its shortcomings, is willing to dirty his hands, plow the earth, love their children, face the obstacles and stay with his community. A democratic, if misogynist, god, that covers rulers, soldiers, farmers, mystics, stickpickers and a few courageous women.

Communal magic has not yet appeared in RQ, though it is hinted at in the fiction. I am sure that using wyters as a kind of framework it goes far beyond the individual magic that we use in RQG. Not really significant in most cases except as flavour for the setting, but the kind of thing that allows a group of committed men (and women, though few with Yelmalio) to stand and sometimes beat a horror like the bat, or Oakfed, or the hydra, or the Black Horse Troop. The reason why the Lunars are keen to keep alive Dara Happan names millennia old, or even recreate centuries old Carmanian foes. Because there is magic in the name, and there is magic in a group of people bound strongly together. And the magic accumulates through the years and the battles and the deaths.

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Inspiration! A Rune spell (let's call it Hold Ground) that provides: a) a bonus to resist knockback effects, and b) a bonus to parrying (and parrying only) attempts. Give it an Rune point cost and a magic point cost, with each magic point spent equaling a person benefiting from the spell. Maybe have it provide some sort of other bonus to forming a phalanx. Anyhow, there's another way that a Yelmalian can provide some utility to an adventuring party, while staying true to their soldierly roots.

 

You are welcome to do whatever you want, but I see no reason to add any such spell to the published cult or to the Cults Book.

[icebrand]

44 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You are welcome to do whatever you want, but I see no reason to add any such spell to the published cult or to the Cults Book.

Don't take it the wrong way Mr Jeff, but this is like the 2nd or 3rd time you replied something similar. We already know the cult is how you want (i seriously doubt someone was there with a gun forcing you to nerf yelmalio), but clearly theres a bit of miscommunication.

My theory is that you (and other old-timers) maybe play the game in a different, more "narrative" way (ive watched Jason durall of YouTube saying he just lets you slay enemies with a single attack roll (no parry, no damage) if he considered you should win that fight.

Thing is, some other people play the game with sandals on mud, dirt and blood on their greaves and their shield skill and a bit of luck are the only thing between them and death.

In these cases, some extra omph would be welcomed, especially when you are just a dude with a pointy stick and a shield, and your buddies stroll (or fly) around raining lightning, or resurrecting people, or causing earthquakes, or becoming the avatar of death...  Maybe i'm missing something and having a flashlight is super powerful ...

Edited May 19, 2022 by icebrand

[Eff]

43 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Whoa, you are using a bunch of really difficult words, and i can't seem to follow you. Please help me understand (im dumb and not a native speaker).

So, what do you even mean here???

1- who is Eliade?

2- what is a psychosocial phenomenon and what's it's relationship to levy-strauss structuralist theory of myth?

3- i'm not a psychologist and i have no idea about Jung & myths (i only know about collective unconscious and ideas being instinctual as a result of human Nature)? What would be "something more jungian"?

Like i'm probably stupid or something but what are you even talking about???

1. Mircea Eliade was a Romanian-American scholar of religion whose works serve as one of the primary sources for Glorantha and how Glorantha approaches religious topics, especially shamanism. 

2. Well, I'm probably being imprecise- I'm drawing on Levi-Strauss's arguments about mythemes and the extent to which structural analysis enables people to use structural relationships as formative analogies, as in the critique of totemism in Le Totemisme aujourdhui and La Pensée sauvage. Animal totems being adopted because they're good to think with. And in Glorantha, this is frequently turned into a literal shift of reality- I can cast Lightning because I can break down the structure and see how these instances where Orlanth threw a lightning spear are identical in their structural relations to my current situation. 

For Eliade, something similar is happening with mythology, but it focuses on the reenactment of the mythological events rather than the structural focus on the relationship between components. 

So by "psychosocial phenomenon", I mean that mythology in these methods of analysis operates on a relationship between the individual's mind and the social world they're embedded in, and needs both parts to function. 

3. Well, I'm mostly talking about Jung's theory of archetypes here- the idea that there are mental equivalents to instinct that stem from the collective unconscious. So the "something more Jungian" is a literalization of his beliefs about archetypes. 

I use the term "cosmogony", (after John Lindow) which in a literal sense just means "model of the origin of the universe", to refer to a very common mythological motif- the world is the way it is specifically because of the particular and specific actions of some entity- a god, a hero, a demon. An immediate example of this in the real world would be the folklore around Roland's Breech in the Pyrenees, that it was formed by the hero Roland cutting apart the mountains with his sword Durendal to see France one last time with his dying breath- the rock formation exists because a hero cut apart a mountain as a last deed before death. 

One model of Rune magic is that the magic gods provide is derived from cosmogonic acts- Orlanth has thunder, lightning, rain, snow, hail, gale-force winds, etc. in his storms because he stole the Lightning Spear, befriended Heler, brought Valind to heel, made a magic stone to fight a monster, calls upon his wild brother Storm Bull out of their sibling bond, etc. 

But another model would be that there's an archetype, which I'll call The Storm Dude, and the archetype has thunder, lightning, rain, snow, hail, strong winds, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. because that's just what the archetype is, and Orlanth is a manifestation of that archetype. And you get those things from Orlanth because Orlanth is what Jung called the "archetypal image" that you use to contact the primal archetype and this is literalized into conjuring thunder and lightning through magic. 

And the questions around the Yelmalio and Waha cults and their magic and so on are related to these different models- if we understand Yelmalio as an archetypal image of the archetype of The Light Dude, then of course his magic only involves light and birds and horses and the phalanx. But if we understand Yelmalio as an entity that engaged in cosmogonic acts, then of course his magic should reflect his status as a guy who falls 99 times and gets up 100 times because that's the biggest thing he did. 

These are simplified models, and they overlap substantially for someone like Orlanth or Ernalda, but at points they really diverge. Now, my personal approach is more structuralist, but I don't have as many problems with the Yelmalio cult as it is structured as a game object- I think I have most of my differences of opinion on it as a metagame object, whether it's good to present it as a cult for warriors to new players. Because I have an understanding of the Yelmalio cult as a structure where its strangeness has a sensibility to it- the Yelmalio cult acts to hide and conceal the truth about itself. 

[icebrand]

3 minutes ago, Eff said:

1. Mircea Eliade was a Romanian-American scholar of religion whose works serve as one of the primary sources for Glorantha and how Glorantha approaches religious topics, especially shamanism. 

2. Well, I'm probably being imprecise- I'm drawing on Levi-Strauss's arguments about mythemes and the extent to which structural analysis enables people to use structural relationships as formative analogies, as in the critique of totemism in Le Totemisme aujourdhui and La Pensée sauvage. Animal totems being adopted because they're good to think with. And in Glorantha, this is frequently turned into a literal shift of reality- I can cast Lightning because I can break down the structure and see how these instances where Orlanth threw a lightning spear are identical in their structural relations to my current situation. 

For Eliade, something similar is happening with mythology, but it focuses on the reenactment of the mythological events rather than the structural focus on the relationship between components. 

So by "psychosocial phenomenon", I mean that mythology in these methods of analysis operates on a relationship between the individual's mind and the social world they're embedded in, and needs both parts to function. 

3. Well, I'm mostly talking about Jung's theory of archetypes here- the idea that there are mental equivalents to instinct that stem from the collective unconscious. So the "something more Jungian" is a literalization of his beliefs about archetypes. 

I use the term "cosmogony", (after John Lindow) which in a literal sense just means "model of the origin of the universe", to refer to a very common mythological motif- the world is the way it is specifically because of the particular and specific actions of some entity- a god, a hero, a demon. An immediate example of this in the real world would be the folklore around Roland's Breech in the Pyrenees, that it was formed by the hero Roland cutting apart the mountains with his sword Durendal to see France one last time with his dying breath- the rock formation exists because a hero cut apart a mountain as a last deed before death. 

One model of Rune magic is that the magic gods provide is derived from cosmogonic acts- Orlanth has thunder, lightning, rain, snow, hail, gale-force winds, etc. in his storms because he stole the Lightning Spear, befriended Heler, brought Valind to heel, made a magic stone to fight a monster, calls upon his wild brother Storm Bull out of their sibling bond, etc. 

But another model would be that there's an archetype, which I'll call The Storm Dude, and the archetype has thunder, lightning, rain, snow, hail, strong winds, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. because that's just what the archetype is, and Orlanth is a manifestation of that archetype. And you get those things from Orlanth because Orlanth is what Jung called the "archetypal image" that you use to contact the primal archetype and this is literalized into conjuring thunder and lightning through magic. 

And the questions around the Yelmalio and Waha cults and their magic and so on are related to these different models- if we understand Yelmalio as an archetypal image of the archetype of The Light Dude, then of course his magic only involves light and birds and horses and the phalanx. But if we understand Yelmalio as an entity that engaged in cosmogonic acts, then of course his magic should reflect his status as a guy who falls 99 times and gets up 100 times because that's the biggest thing he did. 

These are simplified models, and they overlap substantially for someone like Orlanth or Ernalda, but at points they really diverge. Now, my personal approach is more structuralist, but I don't have as many problems with the Yelmalio cult as it is structured as a game object- I think I have most of my differences of opinion on it as a metagame object, whether it's good to present it as a cult for warriors to new players. Because I have an understanding of the Yelmalio cult as a structure where its strangeness has a sensibility to it- the Yelmalio cult acts to hide and conceal the truth about itself. 

I think you give the writers -all of them- too much credit. Yelmalio sucks because "he lost his fire powers". Only that yelmalio DIDNT suck, and it got progressively nerfed (self fulfilling prophecy!!!) 

Seriously, if you watch how cult *mechanics* drift (many times without reason, since they keep the lore) you need to realize most of these changes are accidental / unintended.

And given the explanations received here, i believe it's not a playtest fault, but when playtest feedback came through it was met with "this is how it should be because i said so".

[Eff]

16 minutes ago, icebrand said:

I think you give the writers -all of them- too much credit. Yelmalio sucks because "he lost his fire powers". Only that yelmalio DIDNT suck, and it got progressively nerfed (self fulfilling prophecy!!!) 

Seriously, if you watch how cult *mechanics* drift (many times without reason, since they keep the lore) you need to realize most of these changes are accidental / unintended.

And given the explanations received here, i believe it's not a playtest fault, but when playtest feedback came through it was met with "this is how it should be because i said so".

Well, there's several different ways in which people can rationalize their decision to keep the Cults of Prax cult in RQG! I'm mostly talking about the most recent stuff about Yelmalio's magic, and all divine magic, being expressions of their archetypal nature, but yeah, the actual process by which Yelmalio fell behind is much less intentional, I'm fairly sure. 

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, Eff said:

but yeah, the actual process by which Yelmalio fell behind is much less intentional, I'm fairly sure. 

Compared to RQ3, bad Rune Magic hurts a lot more (as you have it reusable from start), and gaining a weapon at 90% is lot less beneficial (as getting 90% at start is easy anyway). This weakening is surely not by design.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Eff said:

And the questions around the Yelmalio and Waha cults and their magic and so on are related to these different models- if we understand Yelmalio as an archetypal image of the archetype of The Light Dude, then of course his magic only involves light and birds and horses and the phalanx. But if we understand Yelmalio as an entity that engaged in cosmogonic acts, then of course his magic should reflect his status as a guy who falls 99 times and gets up 100 times because that's the biggest thing he did. 

Or put another way (I think?) - do you get the same powers as your god has, or do you get the magic to emulate his deeds?

[French Desperate WindChild]

thanks a lot @Eff for your effort to explain so many things.

[Dissolv]

Both Waha and Yelmalio have proven perfectly viable gods for my PC followers over the years.   This is from the point of view of being able to assist or generate a narrative, have a cultural story to tell, and sometimes even a mystery to solve (I used the Elmal/Yelmalio thing as a hook for a Lhankor Mhy player to go after.)

There is also no denying that in terms of straight up killing things, neither of these assist especially greatly with that most typical of heroic activities.   There is a narrative hook there as well: "follow your god's example and learn to do things yourself rather than calling on cosmic powers to resolve petty feuds all the time."

A couple of decades ago, I would have agreed that these are simply sub standard gods to choose for an adventurer who plans to head into the deepest dankest places and slaughter all that he finds.  And honestly they still probably are.  But these days, older and perhaps a touch wiser, the story told is more important that dredging the last ounce of power out of a game mechanic.   The deep dank cave is a setting of the adventure, and not the end goal.  It is also not the only place of high drama that the PC's should have to face.  "There is a always another way".  This does require that the GM flesh out the friendly NPC's to not just all be a bunch of mooks who stand around with arrows over their heads, handing out quests that they cannot hope to accomplish.   If a chaos nest is too powerful for five random adventurers to defeat, as most should be, then why is it wrong to shift the focus of the adventure towards problem solving, to free up the local warlords and heroes from their own trials in order to marshal them for the challenge?

Plus there is a inevitable law of the PC power ratio.  The greater the PC, the greater the challenge.  I don't mind having a party with a heavy hitter Humakt or Orlanth powerhouse, mixed with "mid range" Waha or Yelmalio fighters, and even "low intensity" combatants that follow Issaries or Lhankor Mhy.    The way it inevitably shakes out is that the super combat PC gets to fight the Rune baddy, while the other PC's face the lieutenants and scrubs.  After all, the primary difference between say, a Yelmalio initiate and a Humakt devotee is normally just the Rune magic.  Both should have good armor, weapons, skills, and battle magic after even a few adventures. 

There should also be the NPC intelligent reaction factor.  The guy covered in death runes who just made his bronze sword into a light sabre should get the royal treatment.  Dispel, disrupt, dullblade, javelin volley, Sunspear, whatever the NPC's have got.   The Yelmalio cultist should only have to face whatever is left over after that, in such a mixed party of Hercules and the Argonauts.  If Hercules only has to face the same challenges as Acastus, then the GM is doing something very wrong. 

In summary: the disparity in combat power is real.  But it doesn't get in the way of a role playing experience if the players want that.  If they only want hack and slash, then yes, they are better served in other ways. 

Although I greatly support Yelmalio getting back the Shield spell.  🙂

Edited May 20, 2022 by Dissolv

[svensson]

So let me ask the important question:

Why are we still flogging this dead Alticamelus?

The 'worst cult' is.... whichever one of them you don't like. YGMV and all that. I personally find value in every cult so long as it serves its purpose. Each God and Goddess in Glorantha has a role to play and a niche to fill and I think that the grand tapestry of the whole would be a lesser effort without all of them. Yes, even the cults I can't imagine myself playing.

[icebrand]

45 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Both Waha and Yelmalio have proven perfectly viable gods for my PC followers over the years.   This is from the point of view of being able to assist or generate a narrative, have a cultural story to tell, and sometimes even a mystery to solve (I used the Elmal/Yelmalio thing as a hook for a Lhankor Mhy player to go after.)

🙂

But every single character can generate a narrative and stuff.

45 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

There is also no denying that in terms of straight up killing things, neither of these assist especially greatly with that most typical of heroic activities.   There is a narrative hook there as well: "follow your god's example and learn to do things yourself rather than calling on cosmic powers to resolve petty feuds all the time."

The problem is that neither assists in anything. Yelmalio has light, and Waha can cremate the dead... They are utterly useless.

You don't see people complaining about lhankor mhy or issaries, do you? Because they are very good at what they do, it's not about killing things, it's about fulfilling your role.

Do you play yelmalian to be a loser out of their depth? RAW works fine!!! You play yelmalian to be a spartan-like badass? Well, then you better be the only initiate in your group, because every other god is badasser than you.

Yelmalio, the Soldier god whos only magic is light!!!

45 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

But these days, older and perhaps a touch wiser, the story told is more important that dredging the last ounce of power out of a game mechanic.

We play different styles of games. The story i tell comes from how the PCs interact with the setting/scenario and what the dice roll. Heck, most of the time i have no clue on what's gonna actually happen, just a place where it may happen!

 

45 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

"There is a always another way".  This does require that the GM flesh out the friendly NPC's to not just all be a bunch of mooks who stand around with arrows over their heads, handing out quests that they cannot hope to accomplish. 

Actually, if you think carefully about this, which IMHO is the crux of the problem...

1- Not always. People are fallible, both players and GMs make mistakes, and some days you are just tired/not inspired

2- it's not "another way" if your chatacter cant do it the "regular way". And the issue here is that almost every single other other chatacter can either do it the normal way, or excels at it (this isnt límited to combat)

45 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

In summary: the disparity in combat power is real.  But it doesn't get in the way of a role playing experience if they players want that.  If they only want hack and slash, then yes, they are better served in other ways. 

Why does it have to be one or the other? If you play the game as intended you have both. What happens when your roleplayers come face to face with 6 Scorpion men trying to break into a farm and eat the farmers? (This is a published scenario btw). 

Does your yelmalio throw their shield and go cry to daddy humakti weaponthane to come kill the bugs, letting the farmers die? Maybe his party memebers chose good cults and they are able to succeed at the scenario???  DRAMA!!!

You are right, Yelmalio has tons of opportunities to shine hahaha. (Not mine, in my campaign yelmalians are badass)

Edited May 20, 2022 by icebrand

[icebrand]

39 minutes ago, svensson said:

So let me ask the important question:

Why are we still flogging this dead Alticamelus?

IKR? like this shouldn't have went beyond page 2, 3 maybe.

I guess we all just bored 

[Dissolv]

2 minutes ago, icebrand said:

But every single character can generate a narrative and stuff.

Yes.  In this way Humakt and Yelmalio are equal to the core of gameplay.

2 minutes ago, icebrand said:

The problem is that neither assists in anything. Yelmalio has light, and Waha can cremate the dead... They are utterly useless.

Tactically, Yelmalio has two key Runespells involving light.  Catseye allows the player(s) to function normally in extreme dark conditions.  So you have an automatic edge at night fighting, troll fighting, and even cave fighting, if it comes to it.   This is a 1 point spell that lasts for 12 hours and negate a -75% modifier that should be in effect frequently.  (RQ:G p. 224).   If all of your caves are magically lit for convenience, and every fight happens at high noon, and there are no night encounters with ghouls, then yes, I can see this being an overlooked advantage. 

In my most recently concluded campaign, the players abused the heck out of this spell to do all manner of things, from stealing cattle to being Thunder Rebels, to dealing with Trolls (by various means), and managing underground with minimal light (single torch, whole party). 

If you play in an actual environment, rather than an octagon, this spell is huge.  They frequently would combine this with Darkwalk for massively unfair advantages at night. 

The other is Sunbright.  THis is 2 points, and fixes everything "wrong" with nighttime in a 60 meter radius.  It burns off darkness elementals, gives a minor shimmer effect, and hammers undead attack % into the ground.  Not as subtle, but again, super important situationally.  Saw a lot of action in the Woods of the Dead.  A demoralized ghoul at an additional -10% on top of that is going to struggle, it turns out. 

The final big gun is from an associate cult.  Heal Body.  This is the best healing magic in the game, hands down and bar none.  It was used by my PC to suck up massive critical hits (Big Club the giant), and just put himself right back together again.   This is very in line with the cult as portrayed in Dragon Pass, and gave the character tremendous staying power.  He also saved other PC's with it time and again.

So for combat, Yelmalio is a specialized night fighter.  He provides no offensive magics at all, but, if he really does get Shield back (which I think is appropriate and thematic), then he is a reasonable mid-tier warrior god to follow.  Lots of defense, negates the most common and annoying environmental modifier, and the PC can either use the night to his advantage (Catseye) or turn it off altogether (Sunbright).   With Shield and Heal Body, a PC would be set for everything except offensive magic, and so is looking to win a grindfest type combat.   I would armor up, try to learn a high level bladesharp, and lean on Dispel Magic to knock down enemy super spells.  Shimmer might be the preferred defensive spirit spell, as you can stack that with Lightwall -- which I could not find a precise rule for being "visually impenetrable" for at quick glance.  I've previously applied up to the -75% penalty, but this was for stacked lightwalls being moved in front of a phalanx. 

So that's what Yelmalio does.  It isn't as strong as what Humakt or Babeester Gor gives you in terms of raw, easy to use power.  However...... what he does have to offer is tremendously dependent on the GM to actually have things happen at night, or at least in the dark.  Humakt might have better killing magic, but if the Humakt PC is perpetually at -75%, then it is going to suck for him no matter his Rune Spell selection.   If the GM has every combat encounter on a sunny day, at high noon, or the trolls never bother to use darkness spells then sure, a Yelmalio PC has just been robbed of the advantages that he even does bring to the table in a combat scenario. 

In my mind this is the biggest hurdle to the Yelmalio, or Waha following PC.  There is a dependence on the GM to deliver a world in which the advantages offered are actually exploitable. 

Having an opponent to fight with swords is a cornerstone of the genre.  It is going to happen.  No work on the part of the GM nor the player is necessary to make spells like Truesword or Sever Spirit useful.  But RG:G is supposed to be broader and better than a video game, and over Covid I did in fact see a capable, if new, player use the advantages that Yelmalio has to offer in useful and creative ways.  In some ways that character shaped the campaign because once the players realized the advantage they had at night, Rebelling became so much easier for them. 

So my take, as a GM is that Yelmalio is tactically okay, and strategically very powerful.    The player does have an offensive handicap, but also gains a lot of power over night encounters, and can be quite strong defensively. 

 

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Compared to RQ3, bad Rune Magic hurts a lot more (as you have it reusable from start), and gaining a weapon at 90% is lot less beneficial (as getting 90% at start is easy anyway). This weakening is surely not by design.

That's a good point. "Weapon skill at 90%" used to be a colossal bump. In RQG it's just as likely to be a downgrade! (I know it says "raise"...)

On second thoughts, what it does do at character creation is to free up one of each of the occupation, cult, and elective skill increase slots, freeing up all those points to be allocated to other weapons or skills so it's the equivalent of +70% to an average character. Not too shabby really!

[icebrand]

29 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Tactically, Yelmalio has two key Runespells involving light.  Catseye allows the player(s) to function normally in extreme dark conditions.  So you have an automatic edge at night fighting, troll fighting, and even cave fighting, if it comes to it.   This is a 1 point spell that lasts for 12 hours and negate a -75% modifier that should be in effect frequently.  

Using runepoints to see in the dark (especially if it affects only you, as per catseye) is a very unwise RP expenditure.

Light lets your whole group see, while catseye is an awesome spell to throw your shield and run away, expertly navigating the cave while you let your party at their fate.

You can also use lantern, or if you really must sunbright lets everyone see.

Also theres a thing called torches. In any case the edge is far from automatic.

37 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

With Shield and Heal Body, a PC would be set for everything except offensive magic, and so is looking to win a grindfest type combat.   I would armor up, try to learn a high level bladesharp, and lean on Dispel Magic to knock down enemy super spells.  

Problem is yelmalio doesnt offer shield, nor heal body, nor bladesharp, nor dispel magic (nor shimmer) so kind of a moot point?

41 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

  If the GM has every combat encounter on a sunny day, at high noon, or the trolls never bother to use darkness spells then sure, a Yelmalio PC has just been robbed of the advantages that he even does bring to the table in a combat scenario. 

Well, my starting character has 5 torches...

43 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

  No work on the part of the GM nor the player is necessary to make spells like Truesword or Sever Spirit useful

Sever spirit isnt actually that useful. You are gambling 3 RP on a pow roll; many people seem to think this is the ultimate spell, but most of the other 3pt spells are actually mechanically better (ofc this doesnt count if the gm zergs you with npc humakti that suicide cast all their RP at the PCs).

47 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

.  Humakt might have better killing magic, but if the Humakt PC is perpetually at -75%, then it is going to suck for him no matter his Rune Spell selection.

If the humakti is that stupid... Does he have at least 4 int? Most playera characters don't even go pee with total darkness, much less go fighting.

Anecdotically, the humakti can Sword trance with 10 mp or so and now your yelmalio is still 25% less than him (LOL)

51 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

my take, as a GM is that Yelmalio is tactically okay, and strategically very powerful.

You consider it very powerful, we see it as a one-trick pony, and the trick aint that hot.

You know what would a very powerful strategy be?

Fight the trolls at high noon. Flush the chaos out of the cave then fighting them outside etc...

You can't tell me "we all go into the enemy territory unprepared but im a strategic genious because i have darkvision"

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Using runepoints to see in the dark (especially if it affects only you, as per catseye) is a very unwise RP expenditure.

Light lets your whole group see, while catseye is an awesome spell to throw your shield and run away, expertly navigating the cave while you let your party at their fate.

You can also use lantern, or if you really must sunbright lets everyone see.

Also theres a thing called torches. In any case the edge is far from automatic.

Problem is yelmalio doesnt offer shield, nor heal body, nor bladesharp, nor dispel magic (nor shimmer) so kind of a moot point?

Well, my starting character has 5 torches...

Sever spirit isnt actually that useful. You are gambling 3 RP on a pow roll; many people seem to think this is the ultimate spell, but most of the other 3pt spells are actually mechanically better (ofc this doesnt count if the gm zergs you with npc humakti that suicide cast all their RP at the PCs).

If the humakti is that stupid... Does he have at least 4 int? Most playera characters don't even go pee with total darkness, much less go fighting.

Anecdotically, the humakti can Sword trance with 10 mp or so and now your yelmalio is still 25% less than him (LOL)

You consider it very powerful, we see it as a one-trick pony, and the trick aint that hot.

You know what would a very powerful strategy be?

Fight the trolls at high noon. Flush the chaos out of the cave then fighting them outside etc...

You can't tell me "we all go into the enemy territory unprepared but im a strategic genious because i have darkvision"

Have you ever been spelunking or tried to wander around in the dark with just a Coleman lantern (which is infinitely better than any torch)?

But honestly, you have made your point ad infinitum - you don't think the Waha or Yelmalio cults have the Rune magic you wish they had. A few people agree with you, others do not. At this point I think this particular thread is over and I am locking it down.

Create a new one if you want without such a negative name.