A New Generic Fantasy System?

[Ian Absentia]

14 minutes ago, ThornPlutonius said:

Mythras already has "passions".  There is no need to add them.

I was thinking more on this, and perhaps the intent was to include the fellow traveler of Passions in KAP -- the paired Personality Traits (which see use in RQG as Rune Affinities, but didn't make their way to Mythras).

!i!

[Joerg]

I have an older edition of Drakar och Demoner from a late eighties visit to Göteborg which still has percentile dice and skill steps of 5% (just like RQ2), and I too saw the D20 equivalent when looking at it. The only bonus application is "stat x3" or similar multipliers different from 5. The finer distinction for specials and criticals can be had by re-rolling the D20 (or chasing the first with a second) to check for specials or crits, even without doing any math. If percentile dice are your measure of BRP-ness, you can train your multiplication by five skills and use the numbers.

There is a difference in what a single MP can do in magic. DoD spells from back then tend to have more effect for the magic point than Battle Magic (when they don't just copy those), and no comparison to RQG sorcery with its wastefully high amounts of MP (which are required as the force of the MP in the spell overcomes resistances rather than the POW attribute of the caster).

[smiorgan]

The Dragonbane Kickstarter is here:

They have free Quickstart rules to download. But, beware, I pledged after skimming the rules!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0m7zabjz8jvvynn/DB_Quickstart_220829.pdf?dl=0

Frist impressions. 

- BRP ancestry still evident everywhere 

- Influence of D&D 5 also quite clear (possibly with a hint of earlier editions D&D4 / 3.5)

- Advantage/ Disadvantage (boon, bane) and Pushing Rolls are the main "modern" rolling tricks. 

-Combat has some tactical depth

- Monster attacks work differently from PC/ NPC, use a random table similar to Jackals' attack range.

-You can still ruin/break your weapon parrying.

- No hit locations

 

 

 

[Ravenheart87]

Just what I've been waiting for! There is a strong influence of other Free League games, like in the utterly simple yet brilliant way Conditions are handled.

[smiorgan]

1 hour ago, Ravenheart87 said:

Just what I've been waiting for! There is a strong influence of other Free League games, like in the utterly simple yet brilliant way Conditions are handled.

Indeed conditions are very cleverly designed and look very fun to role-play.

[smiorgan]

Relationship with Ruin Masters:

- The Dragonbane Quickstart massively reuses art from the Ruin Masters book. That's not bad at all because it was excellent art.

- Apart from that, the two games are incompatible in every possible way (d100 vs d20, d10 damage vs variable dice damage, hit locations vs general hit points, different initiative system, resistance table vs opposed rolls). Very different interpretations of the DoD heritage, I gather. I'd say Ruin Masters makes some design choices that are consciously "old school", while Dragonbane is more modern in feel, and strives to keep it simple.

-Minor disappointment: I liked the variable RM spells - derived from Magic World. From the Quickstart it seems that the level of Dragonbane spells is fixed for each spell, ranging 1-3 power points. Edit: I got this wrong in my hasty reading, spells are variable, which is good!

- Very minor disappointment. Opposed skill roll: with the same level of success lower roll wins. WTF? Not as elegant as Pendragon's system. But I suppose it goes with having 1 as crit and 20 as fumble.

Edited August 31, 2022 by smiorgan

[Mugen]

After skimming throigh the QuickStart, my impressions :

-The influence of latests D&D editions is obvious. You heal 1D6 or 2D6 HP and WP per "short/stretch" rests and all of them in "long/shift" rests. There's also advantage/disadvantage rule.

-As a consequence, weapons hit HARD ! Knives deal 1D8 damage, 1 handed Battleaxes 2D8, Broadswords 2D6. And hit points and armors seem similar to BRP.

-I really don't like that skills have a maximum value of 18.

-I really don't like how opposed rolls are resolved. First because the lower roll wins, but also because there's no winner if both fail, which is something I find more problematic.

-Il like the fact magic uses variable spells, but I don't get why all characters seem to be able to spend 1 to 6 WP in a spell, no matter what their expertise level is.

-EDIT : I like that there is no Shield skill.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Mugen

[smiorgan]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

-I really don't like how opposed rolls are resolved. First because the lower roll wins, but also because there's no winner if both fail, which is something I find more problematic.

It's a bit early but I cannot help thinking  of a Pendragon-style house rule. With dragons at your exact skill rating instead of 1. Higher success wins in opposed rolls. And skills not capped at 18. A less radical house rule could be using levels of success/ failure like in WFRP. Anyways lower roll wins sucks.

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

-Il like the fact magic uses variable spells, but I don't get why all characters seem to be able to spend 1 to 6 WP in a spell, no matter what their expertise level is.

 

Yes, this is good. I got it wrong in my first reading...

[Mugen]

4 hours ago, smiorgan said:

It's a bit early but I cannot help thinking  of a Pendragon-style house rule. With dragons at your exact skill rating instead of 1. Higher success wins in opposed rolls. And skills not capped at 18. A less radical house rule could be using levels of success/ failure like in WFRP. Anyways lower roll wins sucks.

As for myself, I'd let the highest roll win if both protagonists have the same degree of success. Just like with the Resistance Table, I prefer that the difference between skills is the primary factor to decide the chance to win an opposition, not the individual skill values.

I guess they opted "roll low wins" because it's easier to use with their D&D5e-like "advantage" system. For instance, when I roll 6 and 10, I can immediately see that 6 is lower and identify it as the die to keep. In a blackjack variant, I first have to compare both dice with the skill value before chosing which one to use. Not something difficult, but still slower than just picking the lowest die.

However, it is possible that this mechanism actually make things worse for the character with the highest skill. For instance, a character with skill 10 jumps from 50% chances of success to 75%, with a non-flat distribution. I wonder if it still has less chances of success in a oposition with a character with a higher skill.

[Mugen]

Oh, I just saw something I utterly dislike, concerning Parry and Dodge :

Quote

Reaction: Parrying is a reaction, as it breaks the initiative order. It replaces your regular action, and you must immediately flip your initiative card. This means that you cannot block if you have already performed your action in the Round.

(...)

Reaction: Dodging is a reaction and, like parrying, requires that you have not already performed your action in the Round. Once you have dodged, your action in the Round is spent and you must flip your initia - tive card.

So, that means that if I parry or dodge, I can't do anything else in the round, and if I chose to attack early in the round, I'm a victim to anyone attacking me...

That's completely opposite to the kind of resolution systems I appreciate these days, where combat skills are opposed and the best roll hits. Like in Pendragon and Tenra Bansho Zero.

[smiorgan]

51 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Oh, I just saw something I utterly dislike, concerning Parry and Dodge :

So, that means that if I parry or dodge, I can't do anything else in the round, and if I chose to attack early in the round, I'm a victim to anyone attacking me...

That's completely opposite to the kind of resolution systems I appreciate these days, where combat skills are opposed and the best roll hits. Like in Pendragon and Tenra Bansho Zero.

I instinctively disliked it quite a lot and I wondered what could be the reasoning behind that.

1. Making parries rarer so that combat is faster. 

2. Creating tactical choices / dilemmas do I take the damage or parry and forfeit an attack? Do I attack first or wait to see if the other hits me so that I can parry?

3. Exception based design. Interacting with advanced special abilities we have not seen. We know nothing about experience and additional actions / reactions could be given to expert characters. 

I think I am on the fence on that and I want to see it in play. Note also that monster attacks are 1) auto hits, 2) normally impossibile to parry (dodge only).

Fria Ligan is collecting feedback on the Quickstart rules via forum. They say rules are not final and could still change.

[Mugen]

38 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

I instinctively disliked it quite a lot and I wondered what could be the reasoning behind that.

1. Making parries rarer so that combat is faster. 

2. Creating tactical choices / dilemmas do I take the damage or parry and forfeit an attack? Do I attack first or wait to see if the other hits me so that I can parry?

I really don't see the point of not attacking if you have initiative, except if you fear dying from next blow. You just forfeit your opportunity to injure your opponent, just in case he succeeds his attack roll, hoping you'll succeed at your own Parry/Dodge roll in turn.

And if he wins next Initiative round, your sacrifice of an action will be meaningless.

Unless you're in a scenario where 2 or more characters are fighting one, of course. But it strikes me as being a very unfair scenario...

EDIT : if I truly wanted to speed up combat, I would take inspiration from Tenra Bansho Zero, where a successful parry can be turned into an attack, just like in Pendragon.

Right now, the DragonBane system sounds like Pendragon if the only options you had were the Defensive or Berserker  Stances, but the one chosing to go Berserk had the initiative...

38 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

3. Exception based design. Interacting with advanced special abilities we have not seen. We know nothing about experience and additional actions / reactions could be given to expert characters. 

 

We have 3 melee characters among the pregenerated characters, among which one has a power that lets him defend other characters, and none has a power that lets him deal with this.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Mugen

[smiorgan]

22 minutes ago, Mugen said:

 

EDIT : if I truly wanted to speed up combat, I would take inspiration from Tenra Bansho Zero, where a successful parry can be turned into an attack, just like in Pendragon.

In the DoD Quickstart you get a free attack from as critical parry. 

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, smiorgan said:

In the DoD Quickstart you get a free attack from as critical parry. 

Which actually makes it even closer to Pendragon Defensive Stance, as it was in older editions. 🙂

TBZ mechanism only requires that you beat your opponent's attack to riposte.

[smiorgan]

It's interesting to see what people think outside the little BRP/ Chaosium bubble. I was reading opinions on Dragonbane on Reddit. 

One guy was saying it looked like a fine game, but since it had ducks as a playable race he was out. (Note that D&D5 has just released Spelljammer where you can literally play hippos, with-guns, in spaaace!).

Another said that the game was great but his players "don't do roll under" (😮).

 

 

[Ravenheart87]

4 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

Another said that the game was great but his players "don't do roll under" (😮).

Their loss. It's a great way to miss out on some awesome games, including anything BRP-based and the Warhammer rpgs.

[ThornPlutonius]

5 hours ago, smiorgan said:

Another said that the game was great but his players "don't do roll under" (😮).

 

 

I do not understand the opposition to "roll under" dice mechanics.  I especially don't understand the vehemence exhibited by some in their opposition to "roll under".

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/3/2022 at 4:35 PM, g33k said:

An opinion like mine or yours is... well, not "wrong" precisely; but our opinions are only valid for us, not for gamers broadly, or the market as a whole.  They have zero relevance for what Chaosium "should" do with the product.  The (few) who feel as we do aren't enough to sustain the product-line.

Oh, I have tried to say just this for a couple of years... Good luck on you saying it, hope ya have better luck. 

[g33k]

12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Oh, I have tried to say just this for a couple of years... Good luck on you saying it, hope ya have better luck. 

As per my point there... "The (few) who feel as we do aren't enough ."

[Questbird]

I like Free League Games. I referee Coriolis: The Third Horizon and I own a physical copy of the rebooted Twilight 2000 and digital copies of Forbidden Lands and Vaesen. I'm eagerly awaiting their upcoming Blade Runner game. A friend of mine has The One Ring. They all look great. However I don't think I need another fantasy game. I have my Elric! and Magic World, and OpenQuest and Mythras Lyonesse. It's enough. I'll pass on Drakar och Demoner.

[Mugen]

20 hours ago, smiorgan said:

It's interesting to see what people think outside the little BRP/ Chaosium bubble. I was reading opinions on Dragonbane on Reddit. 

One guy was saying it looked like a fine game, but since it had ducks as a playable race he was out. (Note that D&D5 has just released Spelljammer where you can literally play hippos, with-guns, in spaaace!).

Another said that the game was great but his players "don't do roll under" (😮).

On a french RPG forum, I've read someone say that the "only one action per round" was a mandatory evolution, because "back in the days" rounds lasted 1 minute, and now they're down to 6 seconds. So, you don't have time to attack and parry in such a short time 

And another say that the system as a whole proposed welcome evolutions when you compare it to d20 System.

[smiorgan]

4 hours ago, Questbird said:

 However I don't think I need another fantasy game. I have my Elric! and Magic World, and OpenQuest and Mythras Lyonesse. It's enough. I'll pass on Drakar och Demoner.

You are wiser than me, apparently. I also do not really need it. 

[Rich Tom]

Well, I backed Dragonbane. There's enough MW goodness in it too keep me happy and the backer level appears enough for the game to do well and develop a product line. I, like everybody else, have noticed things in the Quick Starter so far but we have less than the basics and it will only improve. I guess there will be a rule allowing for two or even three actions per round through character develpoment, when the finished article arrives.

Yeah, some people don't do role under, (because truncheons and Flagons rolls over no doubt) but who cares? They were never in. Clearly it is very good and Clearly it is BRP. I read that the translation of the name from Swedish would be Dragons and Demons. I can't imagine where they got the name from.

Life is good. 

I did groan when I saw the Duck characters again though.

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, Rich Tom said:

I did groan when I saw the Duck characters again though.

I got the Quick Starter because of the Mallards.

 

[smiorgan]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

I got the Quick Starter because of the Mallards.

This is a fine reason.