Fetches, Allied Spirits... and Familiars?

[PhilHibbs]

  

39 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I disagree with this "organ" thing that seems to have become a very recent trend to accept (and jump on bandwagon).

Given that it was a comment by Greg at a convention in the '90s, it's not very recent. The "recent" side of it is that it's not official Gloranthan cosmology nowadays.

[metcalph]

A fetch may or may not be part of oneself (I suspect I depends on the tradition), an allied spirit certainly isn't.  For familiars, the RQ rules are in RQG p250.  There are also Awakened Beasts described in Weapons and Equipment p44-46 although they do not have a mental link with their companion.  

Do the Malkioni have familiars and the like?  Almost certainly.  Snow Hares are specifically mentioned in W&E p45 as the favourite for Awakened Beasts in Fronela and I doubt they meant the non-Malkioni part.  Priests, Rune Lords and Shamans of the non-sorcerous cults in Malkioni lands will have access to Allied Spirits and Fetches.  

That just leaves the sorcerers...  

[PhilHibbs]

I haven't really thought through the Malkioni familiars thing. Temple wyters aren't the same as allied spirits, and you might have several wizards at one temple. So maybe the "familiar" stand-in is an intermediate entity between the wizard and the congregational wyter.

Is there any existing material on the role of the wyter in Malkioni cosmology? Do they have wyters?

[Joerg]

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

  Given that it was a comment by Greg at a convention in the '90s, it's not very recent.

More than one convention, all the way throughout the "Three Different Worlds" dogma, and in various written comments, too.

There is a post from 1995 where a passage from Sandy's shaman rules talks about the fetch as a special organ already:

http://glorantha.steff.in/digests/GloranthaDigest/vol02/1680.html

(Quoted by Phil in 1999, according to another hit in the archive search.)

 

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The "recent" side of it is that it's not official Gloranthan cosmology nowadays.

There is no such mention from the "vast" amount of writing we have from the RQ2 era, which would make it "recent" for fans from way back before.. apparently a non-negligible population among the fans and customers.

I haven't seen any official position that there is not a specific spiritual organ that a character interfaces with their chosen form of specialized magic with. In cases like Waha which combine theism and shamans, the organ serves as interface fitting the approaches used by the Cult of Waha.

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I haven't really thought through the Malkioni familiars thing. Temple wyters aren't the same as allied spirits, and you might have several wizards at one temple. So maybe the "familiar" stand-in is an intermediate entity between the wizard and the congregational wyter.

We know very little about Malkioni temples, other than that they can be monumental buildings ("cathedral of Mardron"), a focal part of the Malkioni special architecture and city planning designed to enable community support for the wizards' magic. The major Kadeniti contribution to the magic of Brithos.

In addition to communal places of veneration, there are monastic complexes of sorcerer monks in Seshnela and Jonatela, and probably elsewhere, too.

 

14 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Is there any existing material on the role of the wyter in Malkioni cosmology? Do they have wyters?

It would be weird if the community would not manifest in some collective entity. Whether that entity follows all the rules for a wyter in RQG is another question.

There is a good chance that the entity might be manifest in the architecture of the holy place, possibly as an inscribed or sculpted piece of scripture (doubling as the spell formula to summon the entity into the Surface World?).

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

For familiars, the RQ rules are in RQG p250

I'm confused. What exactly are you referring to on p250?

If it's merely binding a spirit into an object, I wouldn't call that a "familiar" - that's merely a bound spirit.

 

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

  

Given that it was a comment by Greg at a convention in the '90s, it's not very recent. The "recent" side of it is that it's not official Gloranthan cosmology nowadays.

Oh, ok. I've only noticed it mentioned on here just recently... and I've been on the site for a couple of years,a nd it's the first time I can recall it being mentioned.

As for the 90s... well, unfortunately I wasn't in the loop back then 😞 Brisbane wasn't really at the forefront of the RPG world.

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

A fetch may or may not be part of oneself (I suspect I depends on the tradition), an allied spirit certainly isn't.  For familiars, the RQ rules are in RQG p250.  There are also Awakened Beasts described in Weapons and Equipment p44-46 although they do not have a mental link with their companion.  

Do the Malkioni have familiars and the like?  Almost certainly.  Snow Hares are specifically mentioned in W&E p45 as the favourite for Awakened Beasts in Fronela and I doubt they meant the non-Malkioni part.  Priests, Rune Lords and Shamans of the non-sorcerous cults in Malkioni lands will have access to Allied Spirits and Fetches.  

That just leaves the sorcerers...  

I believe that Malkioni familiars are a variation of Allied Spirits. Somewhat similar abilities with relation to Sorcery skills as opposed to having access to Rune magic. Teh Godless sorcerers, again in my opinion, use magic to create a homoculus or something similar to what was used in RQ3.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

although they do not have a mental link with their companion.

Easily solved with speak to mind, and some kind of translate spell extended to the life of the target.

[g33k]

24 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Easily solved with speak to mind, and some kind of translate spell extended to the life of the target.

IMHO the point isn't the "problem" and its "solution" -- as you note, easily solved! -- but that an "Awakened Beast" is its own whole separate thing, entirely undefined by its association with a caster (or lack thereof).

Compare/contrast with the various critters/pets/etc that automatically come with some form of link / attachment, where that is inherent to the relationship.

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm confused. What exactly are you referring to on p250?

If it's merely binding a spirit into an object, I wouldn't call that a "familiar" - that's merely a bound spirit.

Sorry, the wrong reference was posted:

Quote

Spirit Binding
1 Point
Ranged, Permanent, Passive
This spell is used to bind spirits into familiars or magical
objects: see the Binding Enchantment spell on page 249
and Binding Spirits into Animals on page 250 for more
information. Binding spirits into familiars demands the use
of special cult-bred animals described in the Spirits chapter.
Magical objects for holding spirits can be made using the
Binding Enchantment ritual (page 249), others can be
obtained from a temple or while adventuring.

RQG p265

And bound spirits in animals have been called familiars as far back as RQ2.  Examples include:

Griffin Mountain.  Numerous appearances of familiars in the statsblock such as Littlefist (Bound spirit in small monkey familiar).  37 instances.  Only 7 allied spirits are bound as familiars.

Pavis: Threshold to Danger: 1 instance (p145)

Edited July 14, 2022 by metcalph

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

Oh My?

[Godlearner]

52 minutes ago, metcalph said:

And bound spirits in animals have been called familiars as far back as RQ2.

Which confused things to no end later on. These "familiars" were basically servants in animal form. I guess in RQG you may be able to use them as any other spirit can be used/partnered as well.

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Which confused things to no end later on. These "familiars" were basically servants in animal form. I guess in RQG you may be able to use them as any other spirit can be used/partnered as well.

I'm not seeing the confusion.  There's a big distinction between bound spirits and animal spirits (sacrifice for rune magic etc) and the bound spirit familiars in RQ2 have spells which can be cast as the owner desires (listed in the spells section as "known by <familiar's name>"

[Godlearner]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I'm not seeing the confusion

The confusion was with what familiars were in RQ3.

[metcalph]

Just now, Godlearner said:

The confusion was with what familiars were in RQ3.

Why not say that then?  

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Why not say that then?  

I said later, What is later after RQ2?

[David Scott]

To clarify, under RQ3, a sorcerer's familiar:

Quote

An apprentice cannot become an adept until he has created a familiar.

To create a familiar. an apprentice must make an incomplete creature into a complete creature (see the beginning of the Creatures book for full definitions - in essence an incomplete creature lacks or is restricted in one or more of the seven characteristics which every adventurer has). The less complete the being. the more expensive in characteristic points that it will be to make that creature complete. See the Create Familiar (characteristic) spell later in this chapter for full procedures. If the ritual is successful then the apprentice has his familiar and has become an adept".

Most importantly, the adept gains the advantages of the familiar: continual Telepathy with the familiar up to a distance of ten kilometers; use of the familiar's INT in which to store additional spells; use of the familiar's magic points to power spell.s; knowledge of the apprentice bonding ritual spell.

The INT of the familiar cannot be used to manipulate sorcery spells. The POW or the magic points of the familiar will in no way increase the magic resistance of the sorcerer, except that the sorcerer can use the magic points of the familiar first and thus preserve his own magical defenses.

RQ3 basically made it a requirement to create a familiar to become a sorcerer.

A shaman's familiars were spirits in RQ3:

Quote

The POW of a fetch allows it to maintain permanent contact with spirits on the spirit plane-the shaman's familiars, allies, and friends who aid his magical tasks.

Familiar comes from familiar spirit. Moving back through the new age movement (1960s+ which influenced sorcery and shamanism in RPG) to historical familiars, these are often creatures sent by the Devil to aid witches, or manifestations of the supernatural (Check out Prince Rupert's poodle) in animal form. Spirit versions as in spirit familiar even get a mention in the old testament. In short a familiar is a helping creature/spirit (corporate/discorporate) that has some kind of connection to an individual, often protective.

The term spirit familiar is used in Runemaster:

Quote

Befuddle and Demoralize spells spread through mind links, so a very effective tactic is to cast Befuddle at a foe’s bound spirit familiar. Few people think to put Countermagic on their bound spirit hawk or horse. If you roll well, you can Befuddle both the familiar and the foe who is mind linked with the familiar and not have to go through the foe’s Countermagic. It will pay to draw Power evenly from your bound familiars,

Overall a sorcerer's familiar is just another corporate/discorporate spirit/creature. It's powers dependant on the individual sorcerer and their culture.

[Jeff]

Yes. A familiar in RQ is just shorthand for a spirit that has been bound into an animal. Sure plenty of sorcerers have familiars - they just use Binding Enchantment and force a spirit to be bound into an animal. But there is no requirement that a sorcerer create a familiar, and plenty do not.

[PhilHibbs]

Just to be clear, the intent of this thread was to discuss the specific RQ3 game term definition of "familiar", a creature imbued with some of the essence of the sorcerer and in mind link with them, and potentially an analogue to the fetch and allied spirit.

[Shiningbrow]

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Just to be clear, the intent of this thread was to discuss the specific RQ3 game term definition of "familiar", a creature imbued with some of the essence of the sorcerer and in mind link with them, and potentially an analogue to the fetch and allied spirit.

Well, not exactly.

Personally, I don't really care much about the RQ3 definition, as (I'm not playing RQ3). I care much more about what it's going to mean in RQG.

You do mention something which I think is vital to the definition - "imbued with some of the essence of the sorcerer and in mind link with them". Allied spirits certainly don't don't have that attribute, and I'd question whether a Fetch does (certainly similar properties, but I'm not sure it's the same).

[Darius West]

Fetches and Allied spirits can lead to some very embarrassing situations due to the mind link.  Consider what happens when you are having sex and your allied spirit bound into your mount starts having a bellowing orgasm.  It will be a little hard to keep eye contact with everyone the next day... Awkward...😅

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Fetches and Allied spirits can lead to some very embarrassing situations due to the mind link.  Consider what happens when you are having sex and your allied spirit bound into your mount starts having a bellowing orgasm.  It will be a little hard to keep eye contact with everyone the next day... Awkward...😅

That why players choose yelmalio as first cult ! No more issue

i didn’t imagine such option. 
but now… mmm some ideas mmmm some very very nice ideas.  

Uleria, nous voilà !

[JRE]

Let's put it in other way.

In RQG, unlike previous versions of RQ, there are few ways to have a mind to mind communication, and none that also transfer MP, magic knowledge and that have unlimited range. Except fetch and allied spirits.

The main difference in how I play them is that the player controls the fetch, while the GM controls the Allied Spirit, which can be a problem at times, specially with runepools, besides inappropiate actions such as described above.

I also allow those helpers to always accompany the character in the other side, except the special case of a discorporate shaman in the spirit plane. 

In the rulebook, none of the cults that can have shaman-priests allow them allied spirits (Daka Fal, Waha). We will have to see if it is a general rule in Gods of Glorantha. Even for multicult priests-lords, they can have only one allied spirit at a time.

It appears normal humans have only one slot for mental and magic sharing, and once it is occuppied others cannot connect to your magic.

With the rules as they are, henotheist sorcerers have a clear advantage, as their god can send them an allied spirit, and if you are lucky with INT, you can have it casting sorcery on you. The magic knowledge could be assumed that you can use your allied spirits techniques and spells, and they can use yours, which effectively means you increase your techniques and runes available .

For my game I will be developing mindlinked extensions for both non-theist sorcerers and mystics. One will be a NPC, the other an extension of the player.

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, not exactly.

Personally, I don't really care much about the RQ3 definition, as (I'm not playing RQ3). I care much more about what it's going to mean in RQG.

Yes exactly. If you want to talk about what will appear in RQG then make another thread. 

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes exactly. If you want to talk about what will appear in RQG then make another thread. 

 

Ummm - I actually did make that thread... it's where a number of those other posts were. (so, I don't really see the point in having this as a separate one)

 

I also made the thread that this one came from (Sorcerer occupation).