So, how common is HeroQuesting *really*?

[svensson]

In the published 'official' RQG supplements [by Chaosium, not Jonstown Compendium] it seems as if every other adventure includes someone on a HeroQuest, someone who's been on a HeroQuest, or someone who claims to have been on one.

Now, I understand that the Sacred Time rites count as HeroQuests of a sort... they reenact important events in pantheon's history and reaffirm the clan's magic. But this seems more like 'HeroQuesting as religious observation' rather than serious exploration in search of challenges and powers. In modern Earth terms the Sacred Time rites might equate to a devout Christian carefully observing all the Christian rites around Easter. So is there a 'tier system' to HeroQuesting?

The King of Dragon Pass game implies that HeroQuesting is never something taken lightly and usually requires clan support, if not the support of fellow cultists in near clans as well. But other NPC descriptions in RQG imply that some NPCs HeroQuested on their own volition with almost no support at all.

So I guess my question is just as the title of the thread says... How common is HeroQuesting really?

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

So I guess my question is just as the title of the thread says... How common is HeroQuesting really?

In my Glorantha, as common as going to church on Sunday... literally! Every worship service, having a chance to change reality for the official in a POW gain at the end of the season, for one (not requiring a change in the rules, just the interpretation) and not RAW but I think RAI, by not doing a worship, the bounds of reality shift just a little... enough that doing this, to my mind in a very magical cubic world where even rocks and creeks are magical (Jeff just said this a couple of days ago, but I have played this for decades), worship will also qualify as a minor HQ. Would I go as far as sincere prayer, yes, I would... but varying and all that...

Cheers

Edited November 15, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Ali the Helering]

14 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

In my Glorantha, as common as going to church on Sunday... literally!

Absolutely agreed, with the caveat that the HeroQuest is seldom an event of great power and peril except at Sacred Time and on Holy Days. 

I once told Tindalos that I was off to lead the primary Christian HeroQuest to which he replied "A communion service then?".  Exactly.

[Jeff]

Let's be precise about terms. Every initiate experiences the Gods World and interacts with it every time the deity is invoked with a successful Worship ceremony. But that's how far most people go. They stick around the God's Place, witness the god and its allies, but do not stray.

A few people - mainly Rune Lords and Rune Priests - go beyond this, sticking to more familiar paths and interact with powers and entities outside of the god's control.

Far fewer people - heroquesters -  go off the familiar path and explore the Hero Plane. 

[svensson]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Let's be precise about terms. Every initiate experiences the Gods World and interacts with it every time the deity is invoked with a successful Worship ceremony. But that's how far most people go. They stick around the God's Place, witness the god and its allies, but do not stray.

A few people - mainly Rune Lords and Rune Priests - go beyond this, sticking to more familiar paths and interact with powers and entities outside of the god's control.

Far fewer people - heroquesters -  go off the familiar path and explore the Hero Plane. 

That was my sense of it @Jeff, that the real secrets and powers of a HeroQuest are those to go off the by-rote script and seek out the meanings and effects underneath the dogma.

And yes, I realize I'm tap-dancing on the edge of God Learner heresy here 😁

I had forgotten that initiates enter the Gods World during their initiation... that it isn't all just your elders in funny masks. The Prince of Sartar webcomic illustrated that right at the beginning.

[g33k]

Also recall that sometimes, the annual Sacred Rites spin out of control, and Otherworld events pull in celebrants... and maybe others, too!

Sometimes, one cult will HeroQuest to mystically-impinge on the Rites of another Cult.  Sacred Time, Holy Days, Initiations... these are opportunities for your Cult, but also opportunities for enemies to ATTACK your Cult!

Etc ...  (and, of course:  YGMV)

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, svensson said:

So I guess my question is just as the title of the thread says... How common is HeroQuesting really?

If you cast your definition of HQing very broadly then potentially every day a Barntar initiate is out planting or harvesting crops can be considered a HQ.

Personally I don't buy it.

If you look to the King of Dragon Pass book, you can see that Argrath does plenty of HQs but likely not more than 20 real HQs in his life, if memory serves me correctly.

I don't define HQs as being the easy rituals that get performed every season.  Your initiation into adulthood  is a bit of an HQ but it is seldom too life threatening. 

Real HQs are potentially very life threatening.  They are high stakes ritual gambles with big rewards.  They are also major undertakings which can involve huge resources from potentially more than one organization.  Favors have to be called in.  You likely want your entire supporting crew charged up with magical resources prior to the HQ as well.  HQs are rituals with "infrastructure" that do more than any simple temple service on a holy day.

The simple fact is, that only the most well-organized and thus powerful agglomerations of groups will be able to come close to being able to perform 1 HQ per season, and they won't be able to do it indefinitely.  They might have 1 year where they do a series of HQs, then lie fallow a couple of years, then do 1 small HQ, then rev up again a year or 2 after that, when the benefits of the first HQs are wearing thin.

HQs are either worldly rituals that echo into the Hero/God plane, or they are occasions when humans directly intervene in myth cycles, incrementally changing them through their actions over time.  These are powerful things, and they should be invoked respectfully, nt like God Learning, and thus infrequently, and when serious need arises.  The rate of this will however increase as the Hero Wars get going.

When I spoke to Greg, he suggested to me that there was always something of a HQ war being conducted between different groups.  Clans might HQ against other Clans t steal their fertility.  Cults would HQ against enemy cults.  Nations against Nations.  Each is trying to obtain, ruin or hijack each others' magical HQ advantages.  This emerges and becomes a sort of extra front of the Hero Wars, as both sides become increasingly God Learner-ish in their desperate pursuit of an edge to win the war.

The way I see it, a successful HQ allows you to interact with Glorantha Before Time, where the gods and old powers are still at large.  This is not the same as time travelling, as Before Time also subtly alters as a result of human actions in Time.  What it does is draw far more magic from Before Time (when the powers in the world were far more active) into the comparatively barren magical landscape of the mortal realm of Time.

This was part of why I objected to HQ as a game system too.  The notion that this happens every day, or once a week, or every adventure devalues what a HQ is imo.  Sure, if you go into the Rainbow Mounds you will be interacting with critters from Before Time who inhabit an area that seems to allow far greater cross-percolation of the Before Time world to mortal Time, and that is dangerous, but is it an adventure or a HQ?  I would suggest it is an adventure with minor HQ elements, and those HQ elements spice up the adventure, but it isn't a real HQ.

 

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Absolutely agreed, with the caveat that the HeroQuest is seldom an event of great power and peril except at Sacred Time and on Holy Days. 

I once told Tindalos that I was off to lead the primary Christian HeroQuest to which he replied "A communion service then?".  Exactly.

I hope you achieved anamnesis.

[svensson]

I agree with your reply to me, @Darius West.

As I see it, initiations and Sacred Time ceremonies offer a glimpse into the God or Hero Planes but only along well-known mythic paths. The average 'Bob' initiate doesn't have nearly the harrowing experience that Argrath had in Prince of Sartar. Entry into the Hero Plane ought to take a lot more effort than a Godsday Sanctify spell or some other triviality.

HeroQuests,especially personal ones, take courage, preparation, and support. They also take more than just one person's personal POW to invoke. Unless special circumstances exist [and those are all over the place in Glorantha] it ought to take the prayers of a whole clan in the presence of their wyter to translate questers into the Hero Plane. And quick note about those 'special circumstances'... those are THE most dangerous of Hero Quests. By definition, if you don't know what myth you're interacting with, you cannot prepare for the path set before you. At that point one path becomes many and you can find yourself lost on the Hero Plane with no way home. Or you could be defeated by Chaos and return to Mundane Plane tainted by the Chaos Rune and a tentacle growing out of your ear.

The average everyday clan carl is exposed to the Gods Plane in little tiny sips... enough to reaffirm his faith but not enough for him to get into trouble. If there was ONE lesson that Gbaji, the God Learners, and Sedenya's failed quest show it is that HeroQuesting is not for the average person, nor is it something to be done cavalierly.

[French Desperate WindChild]

a lot of things are called heroquest even... mundane heroquest, something i dislike a lot

so to be not lost in glorantha, I have my own definitions :

 

doing "like" your god  but in mundane world is just -what I read as "mundane heroquest"-  ... a kind of adventure. it may give some help from the other worlds but like an inspiration (rune,  devotion passion ...) nothing more

 

participating in a worship ceremony open the gate to the hero/god world and participants witness more than acts.  that is not the purpose of the ceremony but it may transform it as a "true" heroquest if it is disturbed (fumble during the worship, outsiders action, etc...) forcing participants (or a part) to act.

 

the initiation ritual is a part of it but as the purpose is to explore (yourself) and act. There is always something not planned, so adventure in other world so i would use the same system that any heroquest, maybe a very gentle, easy heroquest, something with few chance to become a "hero" but you experiment the divine, it is important

 

and at the end the "full heroquest" , when some... heroes.. are sent (by their community, by themselves, because others or by accident... ) in the other worlds and have to explore, challenge the gods and other entities to obtain something (even come back home)

 

then for me heroquesting is  "you are in the other world and must act, often risking your life or your soul"

 

just my to cents , i have not your answer @svensson but your question is very relevant !

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

I agree with your reply to me, @Darius West.

As I see it, initiations and Sacred Time ceremonies offer a glimpse into the God or Hero Planes but only along well-known mythic paths. The average 'Bob' initiate doesn't have nearly the harrowing experience that Argrath had in Prince of Sartar. Entry into the Hero Plane ought to take a lot more effort than a Godsday Sanctify spell or some other triviality.

HeroQuests,especially personal ones, take courage, preparation, and support. They also take more than just one person's personal POW to invoke. Unless special circumstances exist [and those are all over the place in Glorantha] it ought to take the prayers of a whole clan in the presence of their wyter to translate questers into the Hero Plane. And quick note about those 'special circumstances'... those are THE most dangerous of Hero Quests. By definition, if you don't know what myth you're interacting with, you cannot prepare for the path set before you. At that point one path becomes many and you can find yourself lost on the Hero Plane with no way home. Or you could be defeated by Chaos and return to Mundane Plane tainted by the Chaos Rune and a tentacle growing out of your ear.

The average everyday clan carl is exposed to the Gods Plane in little tiny sips... enough to reaffirm his faith but not enough for him to get into trouble. If there was ONE lesson that Gbaji, the God Learners, and Sedenya's failed quest show it is that HeroQuesting is not for the average person, nor is it something to be done cavalierly.

Most every Gloranthan has some experience "on the Hero Plane." When you sacrifice POW/regain your Rune Points, you experience your deity and gain the connection that allows you to briefly incarnate that deity in the mundane world. Every time you cast a a Rune spell, we get a momentary manifestation of the deity. I think a lot of people understate this - it is not Vasana who casts Lightning, rather it Orlanth's Lightning Spear that appears in Vasana's hands. The god is present with every Rune spell.

But that stuff is handled through the Rune spell mechanics, and not what we likely mean when we talk about "heroquesting". To gain new powers, new gifts (and new banes and geases), you need to go outside and explore the Hero Plane. You might be armed with your stories, but they are simply guides of how things might be done - and things might not go that way. You need to make your own stories, participate in your own experiences, and risk transformation. That's not easy - in real life or in gaming. That's why people keep retreating to the King of Dragon Pass version of heroquesting - it is safer, more predictable, easier to control, and less likely to radically transform your character (and even your cult). But that is not really heroquesting.

[Darius West]

I like the idea that most HQ rewards for Theists are expressed as Gifts/Geases.  I could see that failed HQs might result in wounds than never heal properly (that potentially need another HQ to treat), but also a piling up of crippling geases, which are potentially worse than mere death.  Similarly you might be really successful and get a Gift without any geases.

But for myself, I side with the God Learners; the only reason I ever want to go HQing is to skin Mr. Raccoon, because a character with a name like that is asking for it.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Darius West

[PhilHibbs]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:49 AM, Darius West said:

If you cast your definition of HQing very broadly then potentially every day a Barntar initiate is out planting or harvesting crops can be considered a HQ.

Personally I don't buy it.

If you look to the King of Dragon Pass book, you can see that Argrath does plenty of HQs but likely not more than 20 real HQs in his life, if memory serves me correctly.

I agree, I know it's over-used and in some ways outdated but I like the King of Dragon Pass model. A proper "heroquest" is something that the community seldom does and plans carefully for - either it's great need, such as to fix a problem, or it's a way of honouring the gods and spending resources in the good times to get a big reward.

[Akhôrahil]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:49 AM, Darius West said:

This was part of why I objected to HQ as a game system too.  The notion that this happens every day, or once a week, or every adventure devalues what a HQ is imo. 

To a large extent, this is a matter of semantics. There’s interaction with a myth when you go full heroquesting to kill the Emperor, as well as when children play it as a game. There’s just vastly more of it in the first case.

I don’t think we should discount yearly HQs too much though - the Red Cow HeroQuest certainly feels like a full (if small:ish) HQ to me, even though it isn’t creative or exploratory. 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

To a large extent, this is a matter of semantics. There’s interaction with a myth when you go full heroquesting to kill the Emperor, as well as when children play it as a game. There’s just vastly more of it in the first case.

 

Agreed. I read Jeff's post and to my mind it says pretty much what I said a little earlier. Semantics... But in a land of magic, and deities in streams and souls in rocks, I will always see room for a quest of heroic proportions (dare I say an HeroQuest) in a child's game. Sorry Darius, we usually agree, but here... we diverge. 

[svensson]

@Darius West I think you're misunderstanding the point of HQs.

At their very core, HQs make the impossible possible... though at great risk and cost. Consider the case of Hofstaring Treeleaper from the HQ game's Sartar Kingdom of Heroes book. It took very powerful magic to defeat him and imprison the soul of an Orlanthi Hero in a Hell not his own, knowing that you were going to have to contest with Orlanth's deep interest in a Hero of his cult. That deed alone might possibly have been an HQ on the part of the Lunars. OTOH, Hofstaring may well have been a 'Queen Leika level' personality... a successful HeroQuester, but one that isn't in the Argrath /Harrek /Jar-Eel tier. What we are sure of is that it took a successful HeroQuest to release his soul for durance vile. And while that quest happened under a different set of game mechanics, the event only happened a few years ago in the game timeline.

Then there is Sarostip Prince-Killer, who killed the Lunar puppet Prince of Sartar by moving an entire raiding band through the HeroPlane safely and arrive inside all the defenses that the Temertain [who may have been foolish, but was not stupid] and the Lunars could devise. He was then able to kill the Prince, his entire retinue and most of the Sartar Royal Guard [who are all werewolves].

I submit to you that these deeds would have been utterly impossible using the 'rules' and physics of the Mundane Plane. HeroQuesting, with its great risks, was the only way either deed could have been accomplished.

And all that is a whole lot more important than 'Grandfather Racoon's skin'.

[g33k]

It's worth noting that "Heroquesting" describes a wide variety of activities.

Yes, Holy Day ceremonies and Adulthood rituals are Heroquests.  But they are among the simplest & safest of HQ's:  the intent is to tread a familiar path, and gain a minor & ordinary boon.  Most adults of a clan have had just such "ordinary" Heroquests in becoming adults; most years, there is an "ordinary" High Holy Day blessing on the clan and the lands.

Not always, though; it's never entirely safe to engage in Heroquesting, even the simplest ones.

Sometimes, a promising Orlanthi lad severs from kith & kin during their Adulthood rite, and becomes Humakti (or Eurmali!).

Sometimes, they die.

Sometimes, they become an Ogre!

 

Maybe your original question was intended to be, "How common is (major, off-the-beaten-track) HeroQuesting, really?"

Edited November 20, 2022 by g33k

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, svensson said:

 

And all that is a whole lot more important than 'Grandfather Racoon's skin'.

Nope.  That F***er has to DIE!  Over and over again, if necessary, until it takes (hero quests are incremental).  I'm gonna double down on this one. 🦝👎

Edited November 21, 2022 by Darius West

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

To a large extent, this is a matter of semantics. There’s interaction with a myth when you go full heroquesting to kill the Emperor, as well as when children play it as a game. There’s just vastly more of it in the first case.

I don’t think we should discount yearly HQs too much though - the Red Cow HeroQuest certainly feels like a full (if small:ish) HQ to me, even though it isn’t creative or exploratory. 

16 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Agreed. I read Jeff's post and to my mind it says pretty much what I said a little earlier. Semantics... But in a land of magic, and deities in streams and souls in rocks, I will always see room for a quest of heroic proportions (dare I say an HeroQuest) in a child's game. Sorry Darius, we usually agree, but here... we diverge. 

 

When Red moon hits your eye and you go mad and die
That's a Hero Quest
When the world seems to shine like you've stepped Before Time
That's a Hero Quest
Magic rings ting-a-ling-a-ling, ting-a-ling-a-ling
And you'll see pretty colours
Swords will slay stabby-stabby-hay, stabby-stabby-hay
Like some Humakti fella

When the stars make you drool like an Eurmali fool 
That's a Hero Quest
When you glide down the street with a cloud at your feet
You've got sylph
When you walk in a dream but you know you're not dreaming, you've guessed
Scusa mi, but you see, back among Orlanthi
That's a Hero Quest

When Red moon hits your eye and you go mad and die
That's a Hero Quest (That's a Hero Quest)
When the world seems to shine like you've stepped Before Time
That's a Hero Quest (That's a Hero Quest)
Magic rings ting-a-ling-a-ling, ting-a-ling-a-ling
And you'll see pretty colours
Swords will slay stabby-stabby-hay, stabby-stabby-hay
Like some Humakti fella (crit you well huh?)

When the stars make you drool like an Ermali fool
That's a Hero Quest (That's a Hero Quest)
When you glide down the street with a cloud at your feet
You're got sylph
When you walk in a dream but you know you're not dreaming, you've guessed
Scusa mi, but you see, back among Orlanthi
That's a Hero Quest (a Hero Quest)
That's a Hero Quest\

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Darius West

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/20/2022 at 10:20 PM, svensson said:

@Darius West I think you're misunderstanding the point of HQs.

At their very core, HQs make the impossible possible... though at great risk and cost. Consider the case of Hofstaring Treeleaper from the HQ game's Sartar Kingdom of Heroes book. It took very powerful magic to defeat him and imprison the soul of an Orlanthi Hero in a Hell not his own, knowing that you were going to have to contest with Orlanth's deep interest in a Hero of his cult. That deed alone might possibly have been an HQ on the part of the Lunars. OTOH, Hofstaring may well have been a 'Queen Leika level' personality... a successful HeroQuester, but one that isn't in the Argrath /Harrek /Jar-Eel tier. What we are sure of is that it took a successful HeroQuest to release his soul for durance vile. And while that quest happened under a different set of game mechanics, the event only happened a few years ago in the game timeline.

Then there is Sarostip Prince-Killer, who killed the Lunar puppet Prince of Sartar by moving an entire raiding band through the HeroPlane safely and arrive inside all the defenses that the Temertain [who may have been foolish, but was not stupid] and the Lunars could devise. He was then able to kill the Prince, his entire retinue and most of the Sartar Royal Guard [who are all werewolves].

I submit to you that these deeds would have been utterly impossible using the 'rules' and physics of the Mundane Plane. HeroQuesting, with its great risks, was the only way either deed could have been accomplished.

And all that is a whole lot more important than 'Grandfather Racoon's skin'.

I don't think that's the "point" of Heroquests at all... The point is connecting with the Godtime for some reason or other, and usually to keep the world in order and not let Chaos in.

There's certainly other things that can be done with them, such as what you describe. But I wouldn't call those "the point".

 

 

Well, ok, the real point of HQs is to make PCs more powerful....

 

 

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't think that's the "point" of Heroquests at all... The point is connecting with the Godtime for some reason or other, and usually to keep the world in order and not let Chaos in.

There's certainly other things that can be done with them, such as what you describe. But I wouldn't call those "the point".

 

 

Well, ok, the real point of HQs is to make PCs more powerful....

 

 

I disagree... but only slightly.

HeroQuests grant PC's the opportunity to become more powerful, but at very great risk.

I've never had a party try a HeroQuest at my table yet. However if one was in offing, I would make the warnings absolutely clear: You are taking your character's lives in your hands. This is not your 'Sacred Time' visit with the Gods. You'll be directly interacting with myths and the consequences, both good and bad, are significant.

Think of it this way.... Say you're a Bronze Age Greek who is about to undertake a HeroQuest. This isn't simply the retelling of Zeus founding your city. You do that every year, it's a comfortable well-known myth. Your participation is almost like watching a sports event on TV. But YOUR HeroQuest is entirely different. You'll be magically transported back to the Heroic Age and have to reenact some of the deeds of the Argonauts and the Golden Fleece. For the purposes of the Quest you will actually be one of the men at the benches of the Argo, undertaking all the risks of the quest. The reward for success is very high, perhaps the permanent favor of Athena in all your endeavors for life, but you are risking your very soul and Hades is a greedy god indeed.

[Jose]

5 hours ago, svensson said:

I disagree... but only slightly.

HeroQuests grant PC's the opportunity to become more powerful, but at very great risk.

I've never had a party try a HeroQuest at my table yet. However if one was in offing, I would make the warnings absolutely clear: You are taking your character's lives in your hands. This is not your 'Sacred Time' visit with the Gods. You'll be directly interacting with myths and the consequences, both good and bad, are significant.

Think of it this way.... Say you're a Bronze Age Greek who is about to undertake a HeroQuest. This isn't simply the retelling of Zeus founding your city. You do that every year, it's a comfortable well-known myth. Your participation is almost like watching a sports event on TV. But YOUR HeroQuest is entirely different. You'll be magically transported back to the Heroic Age and have to reenact some of the deeds of the Argonauts and the Golden Fleece. For the purposes of the Quest you will actually be one of the men at the benches of the Argo, undertaking all the risks of the quest. The reward for success is very high, perhaps the permanent favor of Athena in all your endeavors for life, but you are risking your very soul and Hades is a greedy god indeed.

The only official example that we have is the green rock scenario and the white bull examples. I use it as an example to get minor powers and convert POW points in Hero points. Nothing about exploring the hero plane until rules get out.

[Eff]

This is a heroquest: 
 

 

This is also a heroquest: 

And this is a heroquest:

The "back to the age of gods and heroes" part is fairly unhelpful compared to the "you pass outside of your usual circumstances and into different, stranger ones" part. 

How dangerous is a journey into fairyland? What kind of game are you playing? Maybe fairyland is drenched with perils and deeply hostile to the intrusion of mere mortals. Maybe fairyland is friendly and inviting. Maybe fairyland is standoffish and aloof. Maybe fairyland is frightening because it's so eager to have you. It all depends on what your group is playing and discovering through play. 

[JRE]

Currently the weight of how frequent Heroquests are, and how dangerous they are, lies on the GM, as well as most of the work in developing what happens and what are the consequences. Some ignore Heroquests, some make an abstraction with some rolls and benefits, some play complex systems based in their own or other designs. 

I am not sure we will get all questions answered in the GM book. Right now I am not sure we will get such a book in the next five years. So I can only say what I do in my games, and what I think happens in Glorantha. Nothing else.

My starting point is that magic is an inherent effect in Glorantha from living beings, and magnified with sentients. That means you can get magic effects from mundane actions, as you get mundane efefcts from magic. I would differentiate two levels of magic involvement and two levels of character involvement., giving four subtypes.

Low magic, without physical transposition to the Otherworld, whether it is the Godplanes, the Heroplanes the Spirit planes, or some other locations. That does not mean the consequences are not major. I consider Kallyr's failed LBQ or the failed consagration of the Reaching Moon Temple as Low magic heroquests, as the questers did not leave the material plane. Consequences are often important as any obstacles or defeats manifest within time and in the material plane, so the effects are swift and obvious.

High Magic would be actually leaving the material plane, but some do it by simple physical movement, such as sailing down Magasta whirlpool. The risks are always higher for the questers, but in my opinion less for the supporting community (if any) as the risks happen in the Otherworld, and often out of time.

Reinforcing the Myth quests follow known paths to get a relatively low risk low reward result. Relative because it is possible to up the ante to increase the reward. Most Cult heroquests and even many PC heroquests to increase personal power are of this kind. They usually strengthen in the questers their identification with an archetype, and in my own system strengthen their runic associations to the point free will is decreased and eventually lost, a frequent cultic Hero fate.

Discovery or changing myth quests (usually called "creative" heroquesting) break out of the established patterns, either because you look for a new myth or because you want to change the existing one. Not only illuminates do this, as devout worshippers may engage in creative heroquesting to learn more about lost or little known aspects of their own metaphysics / God Time events. It is also possible to engage in this with low magic, by enabling change by material means. A desert tracker that wishes to survive the Hyena curse needs to engage in such a creative quest in the material plane, or do so in the Otherworld, but the established pattern requires their death, so it is not a solution. Killing all the worshippers of a god or subcult is also a creative heroquest, as you aim to change the mythic landscape, unortunately widely used in Glorantha. This is the path if you do not want to simply become an archetype, or if you want to create change in the world. This is what most people consider true heroquests, as only heroes dare them.

The elven repopulation or the uz and Mostali flood effects are examples of massive low magic wide impact heroquests, even if surely they also involve minor heroquests of different levels. They require huge efforts if you want large effects, but that is to be expected. Great Gloranthan leaders often change the world without ever doing any High Magic quests. Mostali seem unable to do High Magic quests, for instance, and many Westerners prefer also Low Magic to High Magic, as that is the God Learners' mistake.

The difficult paradigm change is that mundane actions can have a magic resonance, and a great action may well have a major effect, such as getting food and respect from all the Uz strongholds to Dagori Inkarth through the Swarm, being enough to manifest an Uzuz embodying Kyger Litor in the Lead Castle. 

That also means that actions that seem foolish to us may be mythically effective in Glorantha, without involving actively the Otherworld. Damming a river would not only weaken the river magic downstream, but also upstream, as it is the whole river which is affected. 

The following post will describe what is the characters role.

[JRE]

Player characters usually are more interested in personal power than social power, and see Heroquests as a way to acquire new cool powers. That is good for a game. Glorantha however is usually focused in the community, even if most of the great heroes seem to be rootless drifters acquiring power in the pursuit of a personal agenda, from Arkat to Harrek, they almost always try to  leave a community behind, from Argrath's new Sartar to Harrek's Wolf Pirates and his Pamaltelan kingdom, to Arkat's Empire of Peace. So heroes get a community they actually care about, because that will be what you will be betting in the big heroquests.

This dichotomy will probably be enforced in the Heroquest rules, and I do so in my ad hoc version, as all heroquests are at heart, a bet against fate. I risk something to get something else. And when you are at high levels of reward, there is little a few people, even heroes, can offer to get a big reward. Enter the community, as now the people risking something increases. Now you can bet for a good harvest and healthy children, but risking something else. It can be the lives of a few initiates, or bad health, or making your enemies stronger. Symmetrically, if you lose your ante before the game is over, your heroquest will also fail. If Argrath lost Sartar before he completed the LBQ, the quest would have failed. Ynkarne saved Sartar, and along the way allowed Argrath to succeed, even if he lost almost all his direct followers in the process.

Initial heroquests will be minor. Do Orlanth and the Dragon to get rain. The PC will probably have to choose whether they get some draconic link, or reinforce their Orlanth associations, while the community gets rain as needed. If the quest fails, the players will be weakened and rain will not come, but we know most games will be loaded so players will succeed most of the time. It is a game, not an objective simulation of Glorantha, and losing, except in carefully controlled circumstances, is not fun.

However I believe players need to be aware of the risk in Heroquests. A heroquest that gives you a permanent Truesword and no real punishment for failure is not a heroquest, it is a GMs gift. Which is OK if that is how you treat character and cult progression, but lacks one of the elements of the Heroquest, which is the exchange.

That is why I introduced high Runic associations. Your Humakti may do a Humakti heroquest, with the two main results of getting a permanent Truesword. or losing a season of time, some resources used in the ritual and probably some support from the temple. Right? Not for me. If successful, the character Death Rune also becomes stronger, as they become closer to Humakt. With Death at 110%, Fertility is straight out, and they often will lose Rune vs Rune or Rune vs Passion challenges. They will become Death personified, till at certain point they will win a last rune challenge, join Humakt and leave the material world. They can get quite a few nifty powers along the way: Kill at a glance? Animate swords? Break marriages and other social links? but the end result is foreordained. You join Humakt, possibly become a new subcult, and are out of the world. That is the limit of following the myths.

Smart guys and gals with an ambitious agenda use those kind of heroes as powerful tools but do it differently themselves. Therefore, creative heroquesting. IMG Argrath does so many new things, or reinvents many old ones, precisely to break the easy path of becoming Orlanth and ending up unable to choose. Jar Eel walks a razor edge between doing her own thing and becoming the Moon, and that often leads her to affirm herself, even at the loss of the Lunar Empire. She has the clear example of Hon Eel, apotheosized and out of the world. I believe she does not wish that fate for herself, and her life is a dance of opposites to stay herself.