What would Mostalis trade for ?

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Unusual white wool - spun clouds (i.e. air)

Wasn't there a Hero Quest with sheep that has steel wool or something? Do the dwarves use that to make mithril?

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wasn't there a Hero Quest with sheep that has steel wool or something? Do the dwarves use that to make mithril?

I keep mithril firmly in Middle-earth and outside of Glorantha. 

What I do think of with something like the wool of cloud sheep is the association with the Air Rune. Since clouds hold lightning, spun cloud wool might well be an energy source for dwarf machines - put it in a jar and watch the sparks dance! Then channel it to a coil of Earth-extracted copper and connect it to... [insert Mostali device name here]

[g33k]

On 4/22/2023 at 4:25 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Since we are so programed to think of dwarves as real world Irish or Scottish ...

Default / generic / LOTR-style dwarves are programmed Scottish, but most Gloranthan dwarfs are programmed otherwise...

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Default / generic / LOTR-style dwarves are programmed Scottish,

It is largely accepted that JRRT's dwarves were a pro-Jewish image, a countering of the Wagnerian negative images

[Ynneadwraith]

3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

It is largely accepted that JRRT's dwarves were a pro-Jewish image, a countering of the Wagnerian negative images

A little off topic, but in my mind this is why I've never been a 'dwarf person'. I've mostly found them uncompelling. Most fantasy depictions just have them as gruff short blokes who live underground and mine things. They miss the core tenet at the core of traditional 'dwarfishness': that they should be a diaspora.

It doesn't particularly matter which diaspora you choose to base them on. The Jewish one was topical at the time when Tolkein was writing (for a grossly understated use of the word 'topical'), but any will do. So long as they're the scattered remnants of a once-proud nation, scratching a living in the worlds of others you're good.

That only really 'clicked' for me after this scene in The Hobbit movie (of all things) where Bilbo talks about the dwarves not having a home, and it being taken from them. That's why I've found dwarves uncompelling, because broadly their most compelling aspect just doesn't feature in most depictions.

It's a narrative somewhat tarnished by the current goings-on in the middle east, but I think we can agree it's a compelling narrative either way. Just the real-world implications of enacting it are more complicated than at first glance.

Now this doesn't fit particularly well with Glorantha's left-field iteration of dwarves, nor what they would want to trade for, but it's useful background for what made dwarves a good story in the first place.

[Darius West]

22 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Now that I love!

Mostali: Bring me moon crescents.

Human: ...huh?

Mostali: Moon crescents. Digital shields. Ten of them, departed from the whole periodically. Or twenty, I suppose, if you can reach them from your height. You rarely need them once departed. The trade is beneficial for us both.

Human: ...that's made it worse not better...

Mostali: This is the translated version. It is comprehensive. You should comprehend.

I love this too, especially the last line. 😂

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

It is largely accepted that JRRT's dwarves were a pro-Jewish image

Is it not rather something people love to argue about? Adam Roberts (here) would seem to fall into the camp that finds against Tolkien, and some defences of Tolkien have it that his dwarfs were not always and were never in all ways to be read as Jews, for example Renée Vink (here — needs access to Muse).

Spoiler

At some point [presumably AFTER The Hobbit] the idea occurred to him that his Dwarves had some things in common with the Jews, and apparently this notion held enough appeal to him for it to stick. But this identification of Dwarves with Jews remained partial. It is restricted to language type, fighting spirit and Tolkien’s qualification of his Dwarves and the Jewish people alike as “at once native and alien in their habitations
— Renée Vink, “Jewish” Dwarves: Tolkien and Anti-Semitic Stereotyping

I am neither a fan nor a scholar — for me, LotR was unreadable — so I couldn’t comment, but some things are simple:

• No more Jewish dwarfs — enough already!
• “Positive” stereotypes are cringeworthy, too.
• The Jewish–Scottish switch fools no one. In the words of Arnold Brown, “I am Scottish and Jewish — two stereotypes for the price of one.”
• “Less anti-Semitic than Wagner” is not something to put on one’s CV.

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Is it not rather something people love to argue about? Adam Roberts (here) would seem to fall into the camp that finds against Tolkien, and some defences of Tolkien have it that his dwarfs were not always and were never in all ways to be read as Jews, for example Renée Vink (here — needs access to Muse).

Some people will argue about anything.  Roberts admits that his interpretations differ entirely from Tolkien's understandings, and Vink that she is reading back motivations into Tolkien's writings that are hers and not his.

This hardly encourages me to view either of them as authorities on the subject of his racial inspirations.

 

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I am neither a fan nor a scholar — for me, LotR was unreadable — so I couldn’t comment, but some things are simple:

• No more Jewish dwarfs — enough already!
• “Positive” stereotypes are cringeworthy, too.
• The Jewish–Scottish switch fools no one. In the words of Arnold Brown, “I am Scottish and Jewish — two stereotypes for the price of one.”
• “Less anti-Semitic than Wagner” is not something to put on one’s CV.

I rather think that you are, in fact, commenting!

Tolkien's racial stereotyping, his colonialism, his imperialism, and his love for a non-existent pre-industrial idyll are all the result of his time and upbringing.  Regrettable, but so it was.

As for some things being simple, I think one can do no better than to turn to the towering genius H L Mencken, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Tolkien's racial stereotyping, his colonialism, his imperialism, and his love for a non-existent pre-industrial idyll are all the result of his time and upbringing.  Regrettable, but so it was.

I think we've generally strayed far enough from the OP topic, and discussion of Tolkien should be taken to a different thread at this point.

[Ali the Helering]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think we've generally strayed far enough from the OP topic, and discussion of Tolkien should be taken to a different thread at this point.

Sounds good to me, but I won't be bothering!  🙃

[Ynneadwraith]

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think we've generally strayed far enough from the OP topic, and discussion of Tolkien should be taken to a different thread at this point.

Apologies for bringing it up!

Not because it isn't an interesting topic of conversation, but you are right that it has only the slightest tangential relationship with Mostali trade practices.

[Erol of Backford]

IIRC, the dwarves of Pavis had golems that helped with collecting night soil.

Does anyone recall what book/zine this was in?

What did they do with the night soil and in other large cities near dwarf settlements could they not be encouraged to conduct the same collection?

It might have been quasi-god learner magic that synthesized edible steaks from feces...

No wonder people get sick from dwarf food?

What is it called when dwarves have plumber's butt?

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/japan-scientist-synthesizes-meat-human-feces-060312069.html#:~:text=Solution%3F,on proteins from human excrement.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nadiaarumugam/2011/07/08/meat-made-from-human-feces-hoax-or-japans-best-new-invention/

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What did they do with the night soil and in other large cities near dwarf settlements could they not be encouraged to conduct the same collection?

Given that they use it to make gunpowder, are you sure you want to encourage them?

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Given that they use it to make gunpowder, are you sure you want to encourage them?

I didn't know any of that... good stuff! So it's good for killing, growing and feeding pigs.

[MOB]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:28 AM, Zit said:

I'm wondering what would a trade with Mostali look like. In Griffin Mountain, they trade bronze weapon against food, but what else could be exchanged with them ?

In my latest Jaxarte story, which will feature in the forthcoming new edition of A Rough Guide to Boldhome, due out at Chaosium Con, our hero is a guest in one of Boldhome's Mostali mansions and comes across Dwarven tinned food. Each of these cylindrical metal containers is stamped with a symbol – "what appeared to be a cow, a sheep, some sort of flightless bird, and what looked to be a man":

Two of the footnotes from the tale:

11] The Dwarf of Dwarf Run will occasionally offer “Cows in Cans” and the like for trade: as these foodstuffs do not spoil they make excellent long-term provisions for buyers expecting to be besieged or about to take a long sea voyage. It is said that the Mostali have a special magical hand tool to effortlessly open their cans; if so, this is a secret they keep to themselves.

[12] Jaxarte does not go into details, but the famed cook Antonor Lukewarm of Geos in Jonstown is said to have sampled various Dwarven canned goods and recorded his impressions. He tasting notes said, “When the dwarves assert that their tinned beef is ‘100% cow’, let me warn you they are speaking quite literally. The can I sampled was certainly fresh, but in addition to meat it contained visible lumps of hair, horn, and viscera.” He tried the other varieties Jaxarte mentions; the sheep symbol proved to be mutton, the flightless bird was demi-bird (“tough, strangely bitter, and with bits of bone like chalk” ) and the man symbol was “probably herd man, but tasted like pork”.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, MOB said:

In my latest Jaxarte story, which will feature in the forthcoming new edition of A Rough Guide to Boldhome, due out at Chaosium Con, our hero is a guest in one of Boldhome's Mostali mansions and comes across Dwarven tinned food. Each of these cylindrical metal containers is stamped with a symbol – "what appeared to be a cow, a sheep, some sort of flightless bird, and what looked to be a man":

Two of the footnotes from the tale:

11] The Dwarf of Dwarf Run will occasionally offer “Cows in Cans” and the like for trade: as these foodstuffs do not spoil they make excellent long-term provisions for buyers expecting to be besieged or about to take a long sea voyage. It is said that the Mostali have a special magical hand tool to effortlessly open their cans; if so, this is a secret they keep to themselves.

[12] Jaxarte does not go into details, but the famed cook Antonor Lukewarm of Geos in Jonstown is said to have sampled various Dwarven canned goods and recorded his impressions. He tasting notes said, “When the dwarves assert that their tinned beef is ‘100% cow’, let me warn you they are speaking quite literally. The can I sampled was certainly fresh, but in addition to meat it contained visible lumps of hair, horn, and viscera.” He tried the other varieties Jaxarte mentions; the sheep symbol proved to be mutton, the flightless bird was demi-bird (“tough, strangely bitter, and with bits of bone like chalk” ) and the man symbol was “probably herd man, but tasted like pork”.

I once had the idea that the Quicksilver Dwarves used jerked syrup as an additive for their canned food.

[SDLeary]

10 hours ago, MOB said:

…”and what looked to be a man"

Ahhh… the infamous green can! 🙃

The dwarves call food processed this way “Soylent”, don’t they?!

SDLeary

[Erol of Backford]

16 hours ago, metcalph said:

“When the dwarves assert that their tinned beef is ‘100% cow’, let me warn you they are speaking quite literally. The can I sampled was certainly fresh, but in addition to meat it contained visible lumps of hair, horn, and viscera.”

Too funny, Spam with chunks.

There must be a good bit of that tasty gelatinous fat in there as well? 

[davecake]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:15 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

They miss the core tenet at the core of traditional 'dwarfishness': that they should be a diaspora.

A good observation

On 1/11/2024 at 8:15 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

Now this doesn't fit particularly well with Glorantha's left-field iteration of dwarves,

A diaspora is a spread beyond the homeland. Traditional Mostali are in their homelands - Nida, Greatway, Slon. But most of the Mostali you are likely to properly interact with - at Dwarf Run, the Flintnail dwarves of Pavis, etc - are at least heretics, often apostate, and far from a true dwarven homeland. You could consider they are the diaspora. 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

A diaspora is a spread beyond the homeland. Traditional Mostali are in their homelands - Nida, Greatway, Slon. But most of the Mostali you are likely to properly interact with - at Dwarf Run, the Flintnail dwarves of Pavis, etc - are at least heretics, often apostate, and far from a true dwarven homeland. You could consider they are the diaspora. 

The Mostali homeland used to be Magnetic Mountain and/or the Spike. With Jrustela resettled and Slon about to be put back into its place just south of the ruins of Magnetic Mountain (aka Curustus), the dwarfs are working at repairing their homeland. The Somelz initiative is the next step towards that goal. Ultimately, I guess they will want to regrow the Spike, channeling a lot of Chaos through the Chaosium.

But basically, both the Decamonies are as much exile communities as are the bigger heretic ones (Greatway, Diamond Mountain, Mari).