Religion, Satire, and MGF

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I am looking at it from the viewpoint of the Nomad Gods game explicitly saying that Praxians routinely hire Broo

The better alternative is to place less faith in a 46 year old board game that predates RQ and contradicts key aspects of Glorantha "feel" and mythology that were developed for RQ, CoP, and RQG.

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The better alternative is to place less faith in a 46 year old board game that predates RQ and contradicts key aspects of Glorantha "feel" and mythology that were developed for RQ, CoP, and RQG.

I don't see anything in Cults of Prax and subsequent sources that actually contradict Nomad Gods.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I don't see anything in Cults of Prax and subsequent sources that actually contradict Nomad Gods.

You're not looking very hard.  Actually, not at all.  No point continuing a discussion with you.

[Shiningbrow]

What? Other than the Cult Compatibility chart in Cults of Terror that has Waha and Eiritha considering all Chaos as enemies???

Or, p24 of Cults of Prax, where it says (quote) "Waha hates Chaos and will muster to fight it quickly when it is found. He remembers friends who aid him against the evil, and is their friend afterwards... " Or Eiritha on p 28, "The worshippers of this goddess hate all things of chaos..."

 

Sure, one could say that Praxians =/= Waha or Eiritha... but who in the Praxian tribes would have the right to speak on behalf of the tribe, other than a Waha Khan?

One might make the suggestion that a Daka Fal shaman might go to a Thed shaman and make a deal, but I doubt the Waha initiates (or Eiritha) would be too happy about it)

Edited May 24, 2023 by Shiningbrow

[mfbrandi]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Waha and Eiritha considering all Chaos as enemies

Sure, but when we make deals with the Devil, do we tell ourselves “Old Nick is not so bad, when you get to know him,” or do we just think “I want this now, even if there is hell to pay later”? Self-deception enters not in thinking that the Devil is not the enemy, but in thinking that you can outsmart him or quibble your way out of damnation. “The broos will all die on the battlefield killing my enemies not theirs, so I am not really aiding Chaos.” Yeah, right!

Remember also: “Now the player of the  prospective multi-cult character must multiply first by his cult’s reaction to the potential new cult.” (CoT PDF, p. 89) So just to get going, you have to roll under:

((POW+CHA+(cash in lunars/100))/3)×[cult’s reaction to potential new cult]

So the zero on the chart is there to tell you that you have a 0% chance of joining the “terror” cult if you are an initiate of Waha or Eiritha: you won’t get the home cult’s blessing. (Obviously doesn’t apply to Nysalor: you don’t try to join, it just happens to you.) A zero not a one, else rich Praxians could get their cult’s OK to join any Chaos cult, and I guess that didn’t sound very Orthodox Wahaism to the designers.

So given that the zero is doing double duty, don’t be surprised that it doesn’t mean berserk attack without exception on all enemy cultists all the time. The Pope probably won’t say that it is fine for Catholics to join Islam, too — if they put enough in the collection plate — but that doesn’t amount to endorsing endless bloody crusade.

[Jeff]

The Praxians are known to make use of broo mercenaries. Most recently the nomad host that met the Lunars near the Moonbroth Oasis in 1610 included a contingent of Broos, alongside Bison Riders, Impala Riders, Rhino Riders, Pavis Survivors, Agimori, Newtlings, Basmoli Berserkers, Bolo Lizards, some medicine bundles and even a shaman-controlled Oakfed.

Broos are enemies, but the Praxians are - like most humans - capable of working with enemies against other enemies. This has happened again and again in Gloranthan history and our own.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Sure, but when we make deals with the Devil

When we "make deals with the Devil", he isn't real.  You can't go see the proof of him buried under a giant Spike, one so huge that you see nearly every day of your life.  Nor is your God definitely 100% real, as proved every Sacred Time, and every time you cast Rune Magic and feel their power course through you.

 

@Jeff At Moonbroth 1610, the Praxian forces gained the forces of broos, but surely lost the services of their Storm Bulls.  Seems a dubious tradeoff - maybe that's why the Lunars Won.

[jajagappa]

22 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

the Praxian forces gained the forces of broos, but surely lost the services of their Storm Bulls.  Seems a dubious tradeoff

Let Chaos destroy Chaos first, and then destroy what's left. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Let Chaos destroy Chaos first, and then destroy what's left. 

That what the Bat Riders say too.  🙂

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

That what the Bat Riders say too.  🙂

is your argument that the Bat Riders don't exist?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 minutes ago, radmonger said:

is your argument that the Bat Riders don't exist?

My argument is that everybody except Nick considers The Bat a chaotic abomination, and it's a primary reason to oppose the Red Goddess.  Even Humakt and Chakana Arroy, two of the most neutral and forgiving gods, hate the Red Goddess.

If Praxians (and your PCs) sink to the same moral level as the Bat, that's a fine campaign, I might enjoy it, but its more Joe Abercrombie than Glorantha.

[Nick Brooke]

45 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My argument is that everybody except Nick considers The Bat a chaotic abomination, and it's a primary reason to oppose the Red Goddess.  Even Humakt and Chakana Arroy, two of the most neutral and forgiving gods, hate the Red Goddess.

Hold on, Morgan: I agree that the Crimson Bat is a chaotic abomination. It has demonstrably been tamed by the Red Goddess, and is used by her Empire in the service of Lunar civilisation. It is the best example of how the Lunars can make constructive use of Chaos to make the world a better place. If I said that it wasn’t a chaotic abomination, I’d be lying to you. And I can say all of that without sinking to its moral level.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My argument is that everybody except Nick considers The Bat a chaotic abomination, and it's a primary reason to oppose the Red Goddess.  Even Humakt and Chakana Arroy, two of the most neutral and forgiving gods, hate the Red Goddess.

If Praxians (and your PCs) sink to the same moral level as the Bat, that's a fine campaign, I might enjoy it, but its more Joe Abercrombie than Glorantha.

Well, I do think that broo mercenaries aren't at the level of the Bat, morally... but that does speak to the underlying question of whether Chaos should be understood as having a moral valence outside of the beliefs of Gloranthans- i.e. is the most salient factor the use of Chaos or Chaotic beings, or is it what the Chaotic (or non-Chaotic) beings do? 

I, of course, am a radical on this issue, and believe fairly firmly that the text is only even marginally consistent if we assume that Chaos doesn't have a moral valence. 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My argument is that everybody except Nick considers The Bat a chaotic abomination, and it's a primary reason to oppose the Red Goddess.  Even Humakt and Chakana Arroy, two of the most neutral and forgiving gods, hate the Red Goddess.

If Praxians (and your PCs) sink to the same moral level as the Bat, that's a fine campaign, I might enjoy it, but its more Joe Abercrombie than Glorantha.

Just to complicate things, Chalana Arroy is hostile towards the Red Goddess and Humakt is an enemy. But both are only Neutral towards the Crimson Bat. And so both cults consider the Red Goddess a more malevolent entity than the Crimson Bat.

Chew on that for a while.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

whether Chaos should be understood as having a moral valence outside of the beliefs of Gloranthans

30 some years ago, when we still chatted on Glorantha newsgroups, I pointed out what seemed obvious to me: chaos is just as "natural" as air and death.  That created a real s**t storm of heated and angry responses (and, in truth, by me too).  The calmer, rational responses likened chaos to Original Sin.  In effect Sin / Chaos isn't "natural", it came into the world through bad, unnatural acts.  I may not agree 100%, but I can understand that take.  

I believe that shortly thereafter canon added this officially to the Great Compromise, where the victorious Gods declared that Chaos is unnatural and, effectively, "evil".  If one accepts that, then Chaos has an innate moral valence.  (As I understand that term which I just googled)

[General Confusion]

A big part of the moral complexity and interest of Glorantha is specifically the understanding that there are things that are considered 'evil' by many Gloranthan cultures which they still deal with sometimes.

God - whether that god is Waha or Storm Bull or Yanafal Tarnils or Kyger Litor - is not leaning over your shoulder every hour of the day. Nobody is perfectly in tune with their cult, and the ones that come close are strange and dangerous people. Compromises get made, rules get broken, demons are propitiated, the devil's sword is taken up. This stuff is complicated. 

The Storm Khans doubtless make Rodney's argument. But clearly not every Waha Khan agrees, because some of them do hire broos. There's hair-splitting and sophistry involved in that, but since when have hair-splitting and sophistry been impossible for the social elite? If you're Khan of a clan then your job is to keep that clan healthy, wealthy, and intact - and if you think, for whatever reason, that negotiating with a gang of broos is an effective way to do that, you'll do it. Survival, after all, is Waha's first and greatest gift, and everything else is subordinate to it.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

30 some years ago, when we still chatted on Glorantha newsgroups, I pointed out what seemed obvious to me: chaos is just as "natural" as air and death.  That created a real s**t storm of heated and angry responses (and, in truth, by me too).  The calmer, rational responses likened chaos to Original Sin.  In effect Sin / Chaos isn't "natural", it came into the world through bad, unnatural acts.  I may not agree 100%, but I can understand that take.  

I believe that shortly thereafter canon added this officially to the Great Compromise, where the victorious Gods declared that Chaos is unnatural and, effectively, "evil".  If one accepts that, then Chaos has an innate moral valence.  (As I understand that term which I just googled)

Chaos, as Greg used the term, is not "natural". It entered the cosmos through the cracks in the universe caused by the Gods War. Chaos does not recognise or acknowledge the limits of the natural and moral universe. As one put it, Chaos wants to be in the world, but not of it.

This understandably terrifies the beings that uphold the natural and moral universe. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And so both cults consider the Red Goddess a more malevolent entity than the Crimson Bat.

Thanks - good point, that makes sense to me.  Don't blame the tool.  Blame the being using the tool.

[Ormi Phengaria]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Let Chaos destroy Chaos first, and then destroy what's left. 

Hate does kill everything, I'm told.

[DrGoth]

14 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

 It is the best example of how the Lunars can make constructive use of Chaos to make the world a better place.

I'm sure there's an even better one 😉 

[Nick Brooke]

Which example would you suggest? Because the Crimson Bat is one of the most prominent symbols of the Lunar Empire and the Lunar Way, a glorious proof that the Red Goddess’s reconciliation of Cosmos and Chaos can work for the betterment of mortals.

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Which example would you suggest?

resurrect the goddess ?

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Hold on, Morgan: I agree that the Crimson Bat is a chaotic abomination. It has demonstrably been tamed by the Red Goddess, and is used by her Empire in the service of Lunar civilisation. It is the best example of how the Lunars can make constructive use of Chaos to make the world a better place. If I said that it wasn’t a chaotic abomination, I’d be lying to you. And I can say all of that without sinking to its moral level.

You are such a Lunar apologist.

The Bat was happily stuffed away in some Hell not harming anyone at all, and not interfering with anything - until she brought it up and onto the the material world.

It has since killed tens of thousands of people (of various ilk) - or more - and consumed their souls.. souls and lives that would (sort of) still be around now if not for her highness bringing it up.

And for some reason, you consider this a better place??? A constructive use???

 

This is why the Orlanthi and Praxians hate the Lunars.

To make an analogy to the RL, it's like using chemical warfare to win a war... everyone knows it's evil, and the justification to the winning side in no way alleviates that war crime.

 

17 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Let Chaos destroy Chaos first, and then destroy what's left. 

Tricking the broo into this situation - fine.

Actually paying them - heresy!

 

(but, I'm mainly arguing that this situation isn't something sanctioned by 99.99% of Praxians and Khans... and any deals must be done very much in secret. If word got out that Khan X did such deals, then I'd expect their tribe to rise up against him (certainly the Stormbullies would have him quickly removed)

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

resurrect the goddess ?

Not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting the Seven Mothers somehow used Chaos to bring back the Moon Goddess? Can you cite any sources for that?

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

The Bat was happily stuffed away in some Hell not harming anyone at all, and not interfering with anything - until she brought it up and onto the the material world.

And now it harms Bad People and interferes with Enemies of the Empire. That's progress, mate.