Religion, Satire, and MGF

[French Desperate WindChild]

20 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting the Seven Mothers somehow used Chaos to bring back the Moon Goddess? Can you cite any sources for that?

no i think that bringing back the goddes is "better" (from a "morale" perspective) than using the bat.

i don't see any good part in the bat. Some would say that using the bat helps some good goal but that is using the evil to make (or not) the good.

At least, the red goddess proposes a good part by herself (except if you consider everything is falsehood)

[Nick Brooke]

Must be a language issue. Carry on!

[dumuzid]

We're all indebted to Nick for demonstrating again and again why the Lunar Empire is manifestly evil, and should be opposed in our respective Gloranthas.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

And now it harms Bad People and interferes with Enemies of the Empire. That's progress, mate.

That's certainly a... uh... noteworthy perspective.

IMG, there's lots of Good Guys & Bad Guys (and Gals of both persuasions (and some non-binaries)).
There are vast numbers of both the Goods & the Bads, on both sides of the Lunar/Lightbringer conflict.

Nick here has brought into sharp relief why Sedenya is the most-bad of the Bad ones in this particular conflict.

Edited May 25, 2023 by g33k

[Eff]

38 minutes ago, g33k said:

That's certainly a... uh... noteworthy perspective.

IMG, there's lots of Good Guys & Bad Guys (and Gals of both persuasions (and some non-binaries)).
There are vast numbers of both the Goods & the Bads, on both sides of the Lunar/Lightbringer conflict.

Nick here has brought into sharp relief why Sedenya is the most-bad of the Bad ones in this particular conflict.

Isn't it mortals who summon the Bat? 

----

In any case, an obvious reason why the Red Goddess would be understood as worse than the Bat by divine cults is that the Bat merely destroys ephemeral mortal humans in a way that might even be helpful in the right circumstances, but the Red Goddess, by being a liminal entity between divine and mortal, an entity who has embraced time and entropy, an entity who introduces the possibility of voluntary changes to the gods and the gods' world, is a threat to eternity and the eternal by disproving them as meaningful. 

[Nick Brooke]

I can’t help feeling some people were happier playing D&D, with all the inherent alignment bollocks and “Detect Evil” spells.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

. and any deals must be done very much in secret. If word got out that Khan X did such deals, then I'd expect their tribe to rise up against him (certainly the Stormbullies would have him quickly removed)

I completely agree.  Rare deals in times of crisis, such as 1610 Moonroth, might be rationalized.  The Nomad Gods dogma that Praxians tribes often ally with Broos makes no sense.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

I can’t help feeling some people were happier playing D&D, with all the inherent alignment bollocks and “Detect Evil” spells.

 I agree that Glorantha is more interesting without "evil" Lunars.  I know that was Greg's take.  Keep up the good fight!  Our RQ group played Lunars for ~20 years and loved them.

However, the newer RQG material definitely takes the Lightbringers perspective and emphasizes the horrors of the Bat, Chaos (see recent FB post by Jeff), the Red Goddess, and the Great Winter.

My PC, Thane of Apple Lane, gets a lot of cross looks from the other PCs for even allowing Lunars to live there.  I think it's proper roleplaying by all.  And been funny a few times 

[mfbrandi]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Not sure I follow you. Are you suggesting the Seven Mothers somehow used Chaos to bring back the Moon Goddess? Can you cite any sources for that?

No, of course not, that is a preposterous idea. Next thing they’ll be saying that Chaos was used to bring back the Sun. Oh, wait. Bad example. Forget I said anything.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

 I agree that Glorantha is more interesting without "evil" Lunars.  I know that was Greg's take.  Keep up the good fight!  Our RQ group played Lunars for ~20 years and loved them.

However, the newer RQG material definitely takes the Lightbringers perspective and emphasizes the horrors of the Bat, Chaos (see recent FB post by Jeff), the Red Goddess, and the Great Winter.

My PC, Thane of Apple Lane, gets a lot of cross looks from the other PCs for even allowing Lunars to live there.  I think it's proper roleplaying by all.  And been funny a few times 

The newer RQG material is set in Dragon Pass, so of course it has a Lightbringer perspective. Chaos needs to emphasised that it is a real thing in the setting - and although it is not necessarily evil, it certainly includes the worst of moral evils.

The Lunar Empire is expansionist, imperialist, and often hubristic. That does not make it "evil" any more than any other empire in human existence.

[Nick Brooke]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

The newer RQG material is set in Dragon Pass, so of course it has a Lightbringer perspective. Chaos needs to emphasised that it is a real thing in the setting - and although it is not necessarily evil, it certainly includes the worst of moral evils.

The Lunar Empire is expansionist, imperialist, and often hubristic. That does not make it "evil" any more than any other empire in human existence.

The newer RQG material is set in Dragon Pass, so of course it also needs a Lunar perspective: everyone in Dragon Pass knows the Lunars. It’s also important not to over-emphasise Chaos, otherwise everyone turns into a D&D Alignment Dude or Warhammer fascist fanboy: the Lunars also know it’s real, and  can show you how they have been safely using it for centuries.

Sartar and its allies are expansionist, barbaric, and often hubristic. That does not make them “evil” any more than any other barbarian horde in human existence.

[radmonger]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I completely agree.  Rare deals in times of crisis, such as 1610 Moonroth, might be rationalized.  The Nomad Gods dogma that Praxians tribes often ally with Broos makes no sense.

 

Whether or not chaos is metaphysically evil, it is clearly insidious and corrupting. Praxians do keep and take slaves, so the magic of the chaos god of slavery, Ompalam, would be something that is useful to them.

Rules wise, as i understand it a chaos rune rating of over 50% is unambiguously detectable by normal spirit and rune magic, and so will get you kicked out of Waha (unless perhaps you kill everyone who objects). Ratings of less than that are the province of specialist, and unreliable, Storm Bull magic.

So what do the storm bullies do all day if there is no covert chaotic influence on Praxian tribal society?

[Nick Brooke]

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

So what do the storm bullies do all day if there is no covert chaotic influence on Praxian tribal society?

They bully people they dislike, they occasionally kill people for reasons that seem spurious ("He smelled chaotic to me"), and they routinely violate tribal taboos. It's unpleasant to be around them, because they're violent and simple-minded drunks with PTSD and bad manners. The more sensible side of Praxian tribal society probably breathes a sigh of relief when Argrath marches them all off to die in Dragon Pass and the Provinces... at least, until the bill comes due.

Because Chaos in Prax isn't usually "insidious social corruption" (scholars lapsing into Atyarism, criminals allying with Krarsht networks, sorcerers independently reinventing Vivamortism): it's crude and simple. There are breeding swarms of broo! scorpion men! dragonsnails! bad spirits! parts of the Devil! out there in the Wastes! They threaten our good grazing, they defile our herds! So grab your lance, straddle your steed, bellow your war-cry and CHAAARGE!!!

Storm Bulls sit around for weeks or months making a nuisance of themselves, but when the call comes, they always answer. (If there are any of them left, that is: cheers, Argrath, me old mucker.)

Edited May 26, 2023 by Nick Brooke
typo

[DrGoth]

23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It has since killed tens of thousands of people (of various ilk) - or more - and consumed their souls.. souls and lives that would (sort of) still be around now if not for her highness bringing it up.

Like all the souls and gods that would still be around if a certain Storm God hadn't done a boo-boo on the Sun?

If we're going to be serious here:

• yep the Crimson Bat is an abomination
• yep, bringing it into the world was a bad thing
• Will the Lunars eventually regret it? IMHO (YGWV) yep, for sure.  They may even try to make up for it.

There's often a parallel drawn between Orlanth and Sedenya.

Consider if the story of Glorantha had only been told just up until after the start of the Lesser Darkness.  if that was the case, maybe everyone would think of Orlanth as the worst thing in the world. "Man, that guy killed the *Sun*. Now, that's an abomination. Even his own brother ghosted him".

Orlanth's story has been told. We're in the middle of Sedenya's. I know which I find more interesting.

[DrGoth]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Lunar Empire is expansionist, imperialist, and often hubristic. That does not make it "evil" any more than any other empire in human existence.

And thank you (sincerely) for the wording there - "Lunar Empire".  As I'm sure Jeff knows, the Lunar Empire and the Lunar way are not the same thing.

[metcalph]

26 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 

Whether or not chaos is metaphysically evil, it is clearly insidious and corrupting. Praxians do keep and take slaves, so the magic of the chaos god of slavery, Ompalam, would be something that is useful to them.

Slavery isn't chaotic although it is unpleasant.  Ompalam's evil is "degenerative administration, of evil centralization" as per the prosopedia.

26 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Rules wise, as i understand it a chaos rune rating of over 50% is unambiguously detectable by normal spirit and rune magic, and so will get you kicked out of Waha (unless perhaps you kill everyone who objects). Ratings of less than that are the province of specialist, and unreliable, Storm Bull magic.

Making deals with chaotics is not itself a chaotic activity.  The Uz tolerate Cave Trolls in their society despite the presence of Zorak Zoran (and I seen nary a suggestion from anyone that the cave trolls are hunted down).  The Sartarites dealt amiably with werewolves once.  Gloranthan give protection worship to Malia all the time.  Hence in my view making an alliance with the Broos is not something that would trigger a storm bully's chaosense although if somebody told him about it, he would probably beat the deal-maker up or worse (not that they ever need an excuse to).

26 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So what do the storm bullies do all day if there is no covert chaotic influence on Praxian tribal society?

Storm Bullies are not part of Praxian tribal society.  IMO they are a fringe counter-culture like the Hells Angels or the Mongrel Mob.  They exist as warbands running around looking for chaos all the time.  Within the tribe, there are young punks who worship Storm Bull.  They are barely tolerated (even the Waha Khans find them a source of trouble they can do without) with the expectation to one day grow up or move out.  

Waha hates Chaos as much as Orlanth or other normal gods.  But look at what the Guide says about Praxian virtue (below the bit about honesty not expected towards outsiders(.

Quote

Hatred of Chaos is a necessity, and
any mercy or compassion exhibited towards
anything of Chaos is considered to be the
supreme moral flaw, and usually punishable
by death.

Guide p29

A Praxian has to hate chaos and must not show mercy or compassion.  But that does not preclude making an alliance with them as there have been plenty of examples in RW History.  I'm not saying face-to-face meetings with a Broo is fine and dandy and there are probably tribal taboos that prevent the Kahns from doing so.  But even traditional chaos-hating Khans could see an advantage in hiring broos - not against people of his tribe, probably not against other tribes but against outsiders?

[metcalph]

My own modest defense of the Crimson Bat (I've made this point before).  It is not devouring souls but illuminating them.  Its Glowspot is no chaotic feature but results from its ongoing illumination of souls.  That the illuminates can't be contacted afterwards only demonstrates how thorough their illumination was.  That nobody believes this is a sign of insufficient faith in the mercy of the Red Goddess.

[Bill the barbarian]

19 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Uz tolerate Cave Trolls in their society despite the presence of Zorak Zoran (and I seen nary a suggestion from anyone that the cave trolls are hunted down). 

True.

[radmonger]

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Slavery isn't chaotic although it is unpleasant.  Ompalam's evil is "degenerative administration, of evil centralization" as per the prosopedia.

Evil centralization of socioeconomic decisions that would otherwise be made by individuals into the hands of one, their owner.

The contrast is with a clan, where the corresponding decisions are made by collective consensus, with the chieftain merely leading that process.

it makes perfect sense for Ompalam to be a Nomad God, under that name or another. Maybe this is a new development since the opening of the trade routes to Fonrit. Maybe it has always been that way. Maybe it hasn't yet happened.  But there will be those who feel their responsibility to lead the  struggle for survival does not allow the luxury of debate or disagreement.

Hard men making the hard choices for their herd. 

Whether the rare khan who follows that path actively detects as chaotic is an open question. Either way, they are not welcome at the Paps, and are well advised to steer clear of the Block. So they usually stick to the deep Wastes.

 

 

[radmonger]

47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Its Glowspot is no chaotic feature but results from its ongoing illumination of souls.  That the illuminates can't be contacted afterwards only demonstrates how thorough their illumination was.

Perhaps a more plausible propaganda  line is that the bat eats rebels and traitors, and even demons are what they eat. So all the low-level chaos of rebellion and other criminality gets concentrated into one visibly glowing spot. Luckily, Lunar magicians know the right ritual to expel it from the mundane world, to be gradually healed by the Godess. 

It's unfortunate that the empire's strategic situation sometimes requires it to be deployed before it has fully digested the last batch of enemies. The appropriate solution to this is to improve that strategic situation by [insert plan here].

 

[AndreasDavour]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The newer RQG material is set in Dragon Pass, so of course it also needs a Lunar perspective: everyone in Dragon Pass knows the Lunars. It’s also important not to over-emphasise Chaos, otherwise everyone turns into a D&D Alignment Dude or Warhammer fascist fanboy: the Lunars also know it’s real, and  can show you how they have been safely using it for centuries.

Sartar and its allies are expansionist, barbaric, and often hubristic. That does not make them “evil” any more than any other barbarian horde in human existence.

Hail Moonson!

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

My own modest defense of the Crimson Bat (I've made this point before).  It is not devouring souls but illuminating them.

For my part, I adhere to @Eff's (possibly throwaway) line that the Crimson Bat is a living demonstration of how We Are All Us can work, even for the most recalcitrant enemies of the Empire. Once it devours a victim, their soul becomes one with that of the Crimson Bat. It doesn't need to go on to some dubious "eternal reward": it has attained the perfect bliss (citation required) of becoming the Steed of the Red Goddess, and is removed from the mundane cycles of the world.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I'm not saying face-to-face meetings with a Broo is fine and dandy and there are probably tribal taboos that prevent the Khans from doing so.

What do you think player characters are for? "The Khan has an off-the-books job for you, it might get a bit messy..."

[hipsterinspace]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:44 AM, radmonger said:

Evil centralization of socioeconomic decisions that would otherwise be made by individuals into the hands of one, their owner.

The contrast is with a clan, where the corresponding decisions are made by collective consensus, with the chieftain merely leading that process.

it makes perfect sense for Ompalam to be a Nomad God, under that name or another. Maybe this is a new development since the opening of the trade routes to Fonrit. Maybe it has always been that way. Maybe it hasn't yet happened.  But there will be those who feel their responsibility to lead the  struggle for survival does not allow the luxury of debate or disagreement.

Hard men making the hard choices for their herd. 

Whether the rare khan who follows that path actively detects as chaotic is an open question. Either way, they are not welcome at the Paps, and are well advised to steer clear of the Block. So they usually stick to the deep Wastes.

Ompalam very straightforwardly has the chaos rune, and as the god of slavery it stands to reason that practicing his teachings strengthens him. This is one of the great contradictions of Praxian society, the ubiquity of slavery — something that arose from chaos — amidst their fervent hatred of chaos. 

[mfbrandi]

43 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

Ompalam very straightforwardly has the chaos rune, and as the god of slavery … something that arose from chaos

Well, in some — possibly not very interesting — sense, everything arose from Chaos. In looking for an explanation of what makes the Lord of Absolute Rule different from other Chaos gods and other “lords of terror”, maybe we should look at Ompalam’s other runes. (Of course, it may turn out that that doesn’t help, either.)

As well as our old friend , in the past, Ompalam had (the Devil’s crown) and (the prison bars of failure to ) ; now these two are replaced by (the rune for slave or food) and (the rune of nothing doing). Maybe — just maybe — the change is supposed to capture better the idea of slavery.

Compare Gark the Calm: , (the defunct hourglass, the butterfly of unlife), and that rascal , again.

Stasis seems to be the rune of perversion: it is a segment snapped off of . If the Moon says keep moving — changing — to remain balanced, points to the trouble you get into if you stop. I suspect that in the past, was supposed to convey some of this lassitude in contrast to the dynamism and dissonance of . Maybe the (longstanding) use of for cheerier things led to pulling back on this aspect.

When you think about it, the power runes don’t cover very much, splitting easily (in my twisted imagination, anyway) into two groups:

1. (full stop), (all dissonance resolved), (eternal reality), and (absolute zero)
2. (to live is to change), (however it is, it should be different), (temporary reality), and (‘I Was Born Under a Wandering Star’)

A cynic might have said we could have done with simply and or a mixer tap rune. (Not I, though — no, no, no.)

[Attempts to jerk self back to the point — I feel sure I had one somewhere.]

Anyway, my idea is that these perverted Stasis cults are versions of things that seem to offer some last hope to the oppressed whose lives are tending toward the nasty, brutish, and short.

Gark the Calm is religion as Marx saw it:

• Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people — Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right
   
• Gark’s priests travel the world in many guises, promising the seemingly-impossible to the impoverished people of all civilizations: peace and solace from the miserable world. Gark’s worshipers call him by many names, but every crowd of hopeful pilgrims disappears into ancient ruins or forbidden places. — Well of Daliath

So some may read Gark as a satire on religion, others as a satire of religion gone wrong — of cult in the sense of ‘a religion you are not allowed to leave’ (I think that was Deborah Frances-White).

So if Gark is the oppressed mistakenly seeking escape in religion (or the wrong religion), what is Ompalam? Is Ompalam where a political response to the same problem goes wrong? If Gark is misplaced trust in religion, is Ompalam misplaced trust in Hobbes’ Leviathan? Again, you could take it that the mistake is to have an absolute sovereign at all or that Ompalam is what happens when Hobbes’ social contract goes horribly wrong.

So watch out for those cults … like Mostal, which I guess we are supposed to see as having a hopelessly impoverished view of how the world actually works. But rather than sad ‘men’ who want to be ‘machines’, I think fandom has voted for crazy time-travelling robots (Skynet), and that sounds like a lot of fun to me. But if you want satire of scientism and the perils of tradition — and think you can evade the booby traps of stereotype; do I hear the Ring Cycle lumbering into gear? — that’s there for you, … us, whoever.

[As usual: or something like that, or not like that, at all; anyway, dilute to taste.]