Casting spirit magic

[StephenMcG]

I liked, in RQ2, that casting magic happened if you knew the spell and spent the POW.

I never liked, in RQ3, having to make another roll just to cast the magic. There were already too many rolls in RQ combat, so I was a little bit disappointed that RQG went the RQ3 route.  I also dislike the POWx5 to cast.  If someone begins the game low in POW, it really sucks.  So few magic points and so little chance to make them work for you.  Also, no interaction with the Runes.

I was wondering if anyone does it differently?  I was musing that, if I was going to go with the roll method, rather than just stick with "it happens", I might make the default chance 50%. You can add POW as a %age and 1/5 of a relevant rune.  So high power characters have an advantage but not as much of one.  As for relevant rune, it might be that the bladesharp is cast using Death on a sword, that Speedart is cast using Air.  But they might both be cast using Fire against a Troll.

If I going with a roll, I want it to have an element of flex and to avoid a characteristic disadvantage being a BadWrongFun disability.

So.  Anyone played around with the casting rules?

Stephen

[David Scott]

I almost always use the auto success rule, especially where the adventurer is experienced in that facet (warriors can always cast Bladesharp or heal, etc). Unless it's a point where failure might add to the story. But I always roll for POW vs. POW, that's important for POW gain rolls.

[Squaredeal Sten]

I understand the message but to me there things are benefits in the game  which tie it to this specific game world, not a gwneric brand x world..

in RQ2 initiates almost never cast Rune magic.  RQG gives more magical capacity.  Considering that, the rolls to cast are not a take-away as I see it.  They are just part of the magical background: POWer measures your spirit magic ability, so if you assign your low characteristic rolls to POW that was your choice in designing your adventurer.  Rune affinity is part of your link to the god, don't expect miracles without that link.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
typing

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

I was wondering if anyone does it differently? 

We only roll to cast a spell "in combat", outside of combat they are auto cast. This goes for all spells no matter the type spirit, divine, sorcery, whatever.

[Squaredeal Sten]

28 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

We only roll to cast a spell "in combat", outside of combat they are auto cast. This goes for all spells no matter the type spirit, divine, sorcery, whatever.

Same here.  If there is no time pressure then they can do ritual prep, if they miss no harm they can do it over.  So why roll?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

We only roll to cast a spell "in combat", outside of combat they are auto cast. This goes for all spells no matter the type spirit, divine, sorcery, whatever.

One exception.  If they are trying to cast a Rune Spell with a poor rune, and I sense that the real purpose is to get a check in that rune, I limit their chances.

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

.  If someone begins the game low in POW, it really sucks

That’s why I don’t create characters with dices

then it is a question of player choice.

no more issue about pow x 5

 I agree that too many rolls kill the rolls

but I think that, when you are in action , a roll is useful (the issue is we need more than one roll)

I have not yet find a better solution ( for my taste, other may have different needs) 

 

 

[StephenMcG]

5 hours ago, Godlearner said:

We only roll to cast a spell "in combat", outside of combat they are auto cast. This goes for all spells no matter the type spirit, divine, sorcery, whatever.

Yeah, but the place where there are already too many rolls is during combat.  I am, perversely, less worried about making magic rolls outside of combat, I agree, only where the roll might make a significant difference (such as losing scarce resource etc).

Stephen

[Yinkin]

I've gone back to the RQ2 way of casting spirit magic where you have a 95% chance to cast a spell on a non resisting target, and POW vs POW when the target resists the spell. And like many others I do not bother to roll outside of combat.

[Zit]

I never asked for a roll when I played RG2, except the POW vs. POW, and I'm not sure it would really bring something gamewise, since the POW economy is already a measure of the capacity to use magic.

Now I understand this for rune Magic in RQG, considering the availability of rune magic to initiates.

[Mugen]

My first experience was with RQ3, where Spirit Magic had success chance based on POW and Divine Magic success chance was almost 100%.

Rolling under a Rune for Rune Magic and Spirit Magic being automatic is basically opposite to the logic I've been exposed to...

I like the idea from OpenQuest of a Spirit Magic skill which is only rolled in stressful situations. Even though I'd be more inclined to give a huge bonus in non stressful situations (+50%) rather than an automatic success for everyone.

In the end what is missing is a means to measure one's ability to keep his mind focused. An INTx5 roll could be used, as a simple approach.

[Lordabdul]

On 9/8/2023 at 7:19 PM, Godlearner said:

We only roll to cast a spell "in combat", outside of combat they are auto cast. This goes for all spells no matter the type spirit, divine, sorcery, whatever.

Same here. Occasionally, a player might roll for a Rune spell anyway, in the hopes that they score a critical success and spend no Rune Points. The downside is of course that they might get a fumble instead and waste some Rune points. But generally they go with the auto-success outside of combat.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

There is a great minimax temptation to sacrifice a lot of POW to get rune magic, and also to get a much better chance to "make the roll" to increase your POW.  Or, when creating the character on a point system for stats, to keep POW moderate, since it is the one stat that can be easily increased.  Since rune magic is reusable, this approach is even more tempting in RQG.

Requiring a POW x 5 roll to cast spirit magic is one way to discourage a player from overdoing it.  (Spirit combat is another)

Edited September 10, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[StephenMcG]

I find people often find the high POW useful for casting Disruption, Befuddle and Harmonise (and passively defending themselves from the same).

I also find that people like being able to cast freely, it is all very well to say that you shouldn't roll for stats (or choose POW as the low stat if allocating rolls to characteristics) but I think the double whammy of not being able to cast it and then not being able to be effective with POW vs POW rolls feels unfair.

[g33k]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:50 PM, David Scott said:

... But I always roll for POW vs. POW, that's important for POW gain rolls.

Yes; but also meaningful in a "spiritual strength" sort of way -- someone who's a "POW weakling" should fare worse vs. a "POWerhouse" character, and POW vs. POW precisely handles that.

I specifically roll POWx5 when the target *has* no POW.

I allow the "x5" multiplier to increment upwards, +1 per round of concentration (e.g. 2 rounds' concentration lets you roll POWx7).  This lets anyone get an auto-success (except for rolling over 95%) on spells cast upon inanimate objects...  if  they're willing to spend enough time.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

I think the double whammy of not being able to cast it and then not being able to be effective with POW vs POW rolls feels unfair.

I think we have a different definition of the word 'unfair'.

If a player has decided to go with a low POW purely because it's the easy stat to increase, then they can suffer the consequences! AND make the increases more meaningful.

Like @g33k above, added time spent focussed on the casting should increase the % to cast. Not a flat 50%. (and the RAW isn't enough of an increase for spirit magic, since spirit magic is supposed to be easy to cast!)

[g33k]

13 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

... but I think the double whammy of not being able to cast it and then not being able to be effective with POW vs POW rolls feels unfair.

The "Double Whammy" is IMO too big a penalty.

Take someone with POW 10 vs POW 15... I don't mind the 25% chance-to-succeed, that feels apropos of average-vs-strong POW vs POW.

But the 50% gate (of a POWx5 roll before you can even try for that 25% chance) means a net 12.5% chance to succeed... and really, 1 in 8 is awfully low odds in a life-or-death situation like combat!  That's a desperation-move...  Tho there's that one smuggler who opperates down near Casino Town -- San Holo  -- whose motto seems to be, "Never tell me the odds!"

Now, if it's a choice between that 1:8 or moving to melee with a Zorak Zoran rune-lord, it might look like a reasonable choice.

Usually, though, it looks much less reasonable.

Edited September 12, 2023 by g33k

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

The "Double Whammy" is IMO too big a penalty.

Take someone with POW 10 vs POW 15... I don't mind the 25% chance-to-succeed, that feels apropos of average-vs-strong POW vs POW.

But the 50% gate (of a POWx5 roll before you can even try for that 25% chance) means a net 12.5% chance to succeed... and really, 1 in 8 is awfully low odds in a life-or-death situation like combat!  That's a desperation-move...

Now, if it's a choice between that and melee with a Zorak Zoran rune-lord, it might look like a reasonable choice.  Usually, though, it is much less-so.

Then don't make POW a dump stat!!!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

But the 50% gate (of a POWx5 roll before you can even try for that 25% chance) means a net 12.5% chance to succeed... and really, 1 in 8 is awfully low odds in a life-or-death situation

We can all agree that this POW 10 PC is a piss poor attack caster.  They should have a poor chance of success - 1/8 per try sounds about right to me.  Hopefully they are good at something else, like whacking the baddies, scouting, or social skills etc.

[StephenMcG]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If a player has decided to go with a low POW purely because it's the easy stat to increase, then they can suffer the consequences! AND make the increases more meaningful.

We roll the stats four times, in order and take the "best" set.  Sometimes POW just happens to be low.

I don't think there is a dump stat in the game now that CHA affects your spell load.

And it is not easy to increase POW when your POW is below 8.  Just ask any Rune Lord who rolled 13 or 14 on their desperation Divine Intervention.

Every other stat can be increased with due application of time and cash.

I play a session per season, maybe the answer is giving the players the option of a POW increase roll instead of training other skills/stats by devoting time on their local temple's spiritual devotions.

Might take some time but it would lift them out of the hole they are in until they can become self-sufficient.

[g33k]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Then don't make POW a dump stat!!!

Not every table even has this concept; many don't allow arrange scores as-you-will.

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

We roll the stats four times, in order and take the "best" set.  Sometimes POW just happens to be low.

I have not roll stats for decades, too much frustration if you want to play one specific character (imagine, you want a warrior with a 2h weapon and you get  STR 12  ? or a sorcerer with INT 8 ?!). In my opinion/taste rolls should be use during the play, not the generation.

[Ludo Bagman]

21 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

maybe the answer is giving the players the option of a POW increase roll instead of training other skills/stats by devoting time on their local temple's spiritual devotions.

This is somewhat handled in the current rules. A character gains a POW increase roll

1. by winning a POW vs. POW roll that has a chance of success less than 95% (attack or defense)
2. by winning a round of spirit combat (which is mainly dependent on the skill)
3. by leading a worship ritual as a God talker or better or by participating in a worship ritual at Sacred Time or during the High Holy Day (this depend on a skill that can be easily boosted)
4. by training (paying 500 L for a tutor and meditating one day and night per week for a whole season)

A Rune level character may already lead worship ceremonies  in a temple or shrine as part of the occupation, but also casting Sanctify or visiting a holy place may work. A character in good standing (say high Loyalty passion) with a temple or with a priest may get the training fee waived or reduced in exchange for work (no seasonal training for some time). A priest may not even need to pay the fee.

Research (increasing the characteristic by yourself) is missing, probably in order to prevent easy POW gaining rolls say by killing some rats with Disruption outside of an adventure.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Ludo Bagman

[General Confusion]

As a GM who has more than once now had characters voluntarily dump their own POW down to below 10 in order to stack up extra Rune Points, I don't think it's a problem at all. We had a guy running around with POW 7 for a little while - which meant, yes, he was horribly vulnerable to magic in theory, but because he had 8 RP he could just throw up Shield in any major conflict and make it prohibitively hard for anyone to actually bespell him. And he built that POW back up pretty damn quick; one in-game year later and he's at POW 12. 

 

Being low POW makes you really bad at doing magic in a time crunch, yes. IMO that's the game working as intended, for good reasons, and I don't feel any urge to lessen the penalties. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by General Confusion
Misspelling

[g33k]

On 9/12/2023 at 2:44 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I have not roll stats for decades, too much frustration if you want to play one specific character (imagine, you want a warrior with a 2h weapon and you get  STR 12  ? or a sorcerer with INT 8 ?!). In my opinion/taste rolls should be use during the play, not the generation.

Rolling (and in particular, rolling in-order) is just a particular taste or aesthetic... "playing the hand you're dealt" &c, possibly something outside your usual habits and/or comfort-zone.

For campaign-play & ongoing characters, I too prefer something I can fit more precisely to my preferences!
But I sometimes enjoy the very-random PC's for short-term play.